| sugarpop |
01-31-2009 09:47 AM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45
(Post 518644)
Either way, that doesn't prove that Israel is working towards a solution. A disunified Palestine cannot make peace with Israel and neither Israel, Hamas, or Fatah are working towards a unified Palestine. In fact, most outside sources are not supporting a unified Palestine either. Which backs up my original point that all parties are at fault. Actually fault is a bad word because most actions by every side are defensive in nature.
Note, I am not saying Israel is solely at fault.
Owned it in what respect? The residents of that land were born, lived, worked, and died on that land. Other people would come tax them for using land they conquered but it usually was still worked on by the same people.
This argument is literally no different than the Eddie Izzard standup on flags. Political boundries were not used by anyone outside Europe, therefore technically they did not own the land according to the Europeans. So, when Europeans colonized the area and set up politically boundaries, they got to determine who owned what land.
Doesn't that logic seem kind of messed up? Well actually it doesn't because the people with the guns make the rules but eitherway...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k
I've always wondered what made this land the Jews home and not anyone elses? They weren't the first people to live there, people have been living in that area for 10,000 years and Judaism is only around 3,000 years old. The area became Christian under 2,000 years ago and then Islamic about 1,200 years ago. It wasn't as if the Jews living there were kicked out either by the Christians, many converted and then converted to Islam. So technically, the Palestinians living there have been living there the entire time. The Jews living there now immigrated from other areas and do not have genetic origin to that land.
Or another view, why do Europeans have a right over the United States and Canada and not the natives? The natives were living there for over 10,000 years but we kicked and moved them around. Would the descendants of an Iroquois tribe be legitimate in "going home" and taking over New York?
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I love that analogy.
Quote:
The only way to make it much easier for everyone and not be hypocritical is to not give any group a right to any land. Jews do not get Israel and neither do Arabs. Nothing can be done to change the situation we are in so we have to deal with it.
If you disagree, show how Jews have a right to that land over any other group.
No, I agree as well. Hell, most Arab states accept it as well even though they may not show it. A small group of Palestinians are the only ones that do not, but they have got power through other means. Reread the original article I posted, it clearly says that the citizens of Gaza support Hamas not necessarily because of their views but because of the siege against them.
Now, I am not arguing that the siege is an ugly oppressive move. Israel is doing it to get rid of Hamas. And Hamas was elected because of Israeli actions. Those Israeli actions were reactionary to Palestinian actions which were reactions to Israeli which were reaction to...
Both sides are on the defensive and all three internal forces are doing what every other country in this world is doing, working to further their self interests. As I said, a peace cannot come without a unified Palestine and neither of the three sides, plus external forces, are working towards that.
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Israel has been committing human rights violations against Palestinans for decades. Just because they are a "legitimate" government does not mean they are not also terrorists. If we didn't fund Israel to the tune of about $3 billion/year maybe they could actually work out their differences.
When Britain originally made a deal with Zionists for the land (which happened behind the backs of the Arabs, who had agreed to help Britain fight the Germans, and T. E. Lawrence, who was the British liaison officer to the Arabs), it was supposed to protect the people who already lived on the land by limiting the number of Jews who could migrate there. That did not last long. The huge influx of Jews and displacement of Palestinians is probably the main reason why the fighting started to begin with, because before this backroom agreement with Zionists, the Jews who lived there and the Palestianins who lived there got along. It was the Zionists who caused the problem.
Israel had many terrorist organizations well before the PLO and Hamas existed. The reason why Britain decided to leave and wash their hands of the mess they created is because the Zionist organization Irgun, led by Menecham Begin, blew up the King David Hotel in July 1946, killing almost 100 people, including Jews. Funny how Begin later became a respected and validated political leader, after being a terrorist, along with other political leaders in Israeli history. (Funny how we now call it Jewish resistance, and call Palestinian resistance terrorists).
After Israel declared themselves a state, they legitimized their terrorist acts against the people who had been living on that land for hundreds of years, and by default, the Palestinians, who were fighting a resistance against an invader who was put there by a foreign country, became the bad guys.
I am not defending the actions of either people. Personally, I don't understand why they can't just get along with one another and peacefully share the land. But I certainly understand the Palestinians fight more, because they are fighting for their land, for their freedom in their own land, and for their dignity. The Israeli government has systematically driven the Palestinians onto smaller and smaller tracts of land. And the settlements someone mentioned that they gave back, those settlements were created after forcibly removing Palestinians from their homes and putting them in camps, and then bulldozing the houses to make way for homes for Israelis. And if they refuse to leave, they bulldoze right over the people. In fact, an Israeli soldier killed an American student who was there protesting in 2003 with a bulldozer. And that is not the only example of Israeli military brutally killing innocent protesters or peace activists from other countries who are there trying to help Palestinians. I don't know how anyone in their right mind can condone such behavior from a supposed "democratic" country. |
