So many adages might fit here, if I had an opinion, which I don't:

Apples don't fall far from trees

We reap what we sow

Having said that, I would never speak to my parents like that because I was raised not to speak to my parents like that. In return, my parents gave me discipline that was shielded in respect.

Just a small viewpoint in a huge issue.

= He has a lot of his bio-dad (I just can't call him a father, sorry) in him. Both genetically and mentally. What the hell happened to this poor kid during years 1 thru 7???? I hate to even try to imagine.

=And partially what his bio-dad sowed. This is not all your fault, but it is true that the first few years are, by far, the most important in childrearing. I think its safe to assume that your son got none of that for far too long. Perhaps the damage was already done, more like highly probable.

My mom would have bitch-slapped me across the room if I ever said anything even remotely close to what your son said to you. Although again imagine what his first seven years were like and how HE was treated. All the abuse he probably endured both mentally and physically - perhaps even sexually. I am not a doctor, but this outrageous behavior sounds an awful lot like it may have been caused from some sort of abuse.

I don't think you were inn a position to really "succeed" as a mother. but that said this kid has NO IDEA how to reach out to, love or trust you or anyone else for that matter. He probably related to "Miss Thang" because she was the closest thing to his bio-dad that he found. All he was (probably) taught at a very young age was hate, negativity and abuse.

Oh, and where was he prior to and during the whole murder thing? Any chance he knew this was happening or overheard his bio-dad
planning it or feels somehow responsible for his bio-dad killing the man you were to marry? Or responsible that his father killed him period? Ruining "everyone's" lives. Thats a hell of a burden to put on a kid.

Last thing a 17 1/2 yr old is a KID. I've got three of my own 18, 16, 14 and their ages have less to do with their maturity level than the sum of their life experiences.

Sorry so long - I just went off on you and I don't mean it to come across that way. :(
Compassionate hugs to you I'm really sorry for your troubles.

Stuff like this is why I am glad our kids are grown and gone , and I FEAR haveing grandkids .
I Have found that I am WAY less tollarant of small children , and bratty kids , I just want to SMACK them , but that just makes things worse ,
I had a nepheu liveing with us for a few months a few years ago , he is gone and NOT welcome in my house AGAIN !!! That kid would push every button he could just to do it then not understand when we got mad !! " Ughh dude why are you throwing that throwing star into the side of the garage ?? " " Uhh , what throwing star , thats not mine ( Carol took it out of his hand )" "Where did you get it " get what ? " the trhowing star that I just took out of your hand " Thats not mine " etc,,,,,,,,,,,,,
AHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!

I know what you're talking about, Zip. I've never had a lot of tolerance for brats. Kids, through inexperience and lack of understanding are going to screw up. They all do, we all did. I can handle that, but deliberate, malicious, button pushing I can't tolerate.
I've been told, they have to do that to learn how far they can go, testing limits and learning consequences. Hey, I'll help them learn the consequences. What happens when they pull that shit in the real world.
I'm told it's different when they are your own spawn. I chose not to take that risk because the SPCA won't take 'em, ya know.
They claim it's all on the parents, the nurturing and affection. That doesn't explain why a couple will have several kids and one turns out to be a clinker, though. I've seen it several times, where one of the brood is a monster, among normal siblings. There has to be more to it than the nurturing.:confused:

Nature via Nurture

We've all got biological limitations but the way we are or are not nurtured alters our performance within those parameters.

The question to ask is why is the child pushing buttons? I'd argue that it is a form of communication developed because of limitations enforced by the childs biology and/or his environment. OC's looks like a perfect storm. The child is obviously limited in capacity but when he does ask a question clearly he gets pounded for it. When I was in high school one of my friends ran away from home. He landed at our house, because while my folks were tough, they were also predictable and fair. OC, as hard as it is to hear, you are running an unpredictable house where communication isn't taking place through normal channels. Please do not pursue the adoption of another child.

I am making the assumption here that at some point growing up you said something that was disrespectful to your parents, and they punished/disciplined you.

1) How did they do so, if you remember.
2) What would they have done if that hadn't corrected your behavior?
3) What would they have done if #2 didn't correct your behavior?
Repeat until your parents are at their wits end, and have run out of ideas.

We are all doing the best with what tools we have.

I understand that it doesn't always work. But, I was raised to respect them, and I felt bad if I disappointed them. Does this mean I was BORN with an innate goodness that just radiated forth, and my kind and loving parents simply shoo-shooed me and I meekly obeyed? Not by a long shot.

I find it funny that so many defend drama drama drama from one person who loves it, and bans others who are drama drama drama but for some reason everyone is like "awwwwwww, they can't help the way things are." Think marichiko.

Just sayin'

I don't buy it. It's like small dogs in tall grass jumping up to see what all the other dogs are doing, and following suit.

You missed my point.

1 How were you raised to be this way?? 2 You may have had more of a conscience (sp), so that a little discipline went a long way. What if you didn't feel bad dissapointing them?? Then what?

We tend to learn from what we are exposed to as children. I find myself treating my daughter the way I was treated as a child. I turned into my mom, if you will. Some things I am proud of, some not. I do this unconsciously.

My brother was raised in the same household, by the same parents. I have a master's degree and an excellent career. He dropped out of high school and has a criminal record.

I think a main difference between us is that I felt bad when I 'got in trouble'. He didn't care so much, and thus our different life paths. I didn't get more punishment, it just hurt me more. Thus, I tended to not do things that would get me into it (or got better at not getting caught, heh heh).

Am I better than him? No, I definately have faults. But I am a much more productive member of society.

being raised in the same house doesn't mean you were raised the same way. parents treat kids differently. it's just a hard goddamned fact of life.

LJ, for example, was an abused child. He was forced to watch reruns of Andy Griffith while his siblings were treated to more enlightening PBS fare. :D

It's true that kids are treated differently. Starting with just the blatantly obvious, our firstborn had our undivided attention for 3 years. Much of that was anxiety ridden and 1st time parent paranoia filled. Our second born didn't get the same amount of attention, and we have been much more laid back. The two have different personalities. Not sure if it's because they have been treated different or they are wired different or both. Our first born is a pleaser and our second born is a strong-headed rebel. Both are great.

yep. i'm a middle child. my sister is burdened with constantly feeling like she has to live up to expectations of others, resents it, rebels against it, etc. my brother who is 6 years younger, had an entirely different environment to deal with. my

Dude, that is awesome. Easily worth a thousand words, and precisely on topic. My feelings exactly.

That picture makes it abundantly clear that no amount of advice or wishful thinking is going to help the situation.

Maybe it's time to fire up the power-shovel and crane, and get to work?

When the time comes for the youngster to leave the nest, they go.

Conflict can arise from many sources, especially if one of the parties is not ready when it happens. The bigger the difference, the bigger the potential for conflict. On top of that, each side, the parent and the child can be internally conflicted too. "I want to go, I'm scared to go, I can't stand it here, I don't know how I'll handle it out there..." round and round and round.

Talk is all we got to smooth over these inevitable transitions. If the talk is harsh, the transition, already tense, becomes a conflict.

You can't keep them. They can't stay past some point. And the worst part is KNOWING there will be pain. There WILL be mistakes. As a parent, it takes unimaginable courage to deliberately send your precious child into harm's way, that big old mean old world. It may be some small comfort knowing that that course is at least safer than permitting them to stay home with the tigers.

But dammit, somebody's got to be the adult. The only question is, who's the best one for that job?