Orthodoc, sorry to hear about your marriage. My opinion is that when a marriage gets to the point where divorce is inevitable, those formerly important ideals such as love, loyalty, fairness, and sacrifice are lost. However much you feel them yourself, and your soon-to-be-ex partner claims to still feel them, fact is, they probably mostly went out the door before divorce was even considered. So protect yourself and whatever remnants of the relationship are left, and get legal representation.

I thought my divorce was civil and fair. I did the paperwork myself, he agreed to everything, which was slanted in his favor to get him to agree to a speedy end. Now, 10 years later, turns out he has been verbally stabbing me in the back to our daughter for years. As a result, any semblance of a relationship I have with her is in shreds due to his incessant trash-talking about me combined with normal teenage angst. So yeah. At this point, I almost wish I'd taken him to the cleaners (or at least gotten what was due me) instead of trying to "play fair" or be nice. :mad2:

You gave a cat away to a neighbour, and admit you had no love for him.
You wish you'd killed another cat when it was convenient to do so.
I'm guessing you are not a cat person...?

So don't worry about it. The cat you disliked enough to abandon will starve to death, problem solved.

Your spouse might feel differently, but that's a whole other problem.

Hello again orthodoc.

Stormieweather's and others' advice to get a lawyer is sound advice. I agree. I got a lawyer too. It's helpful to understand what a lawyer can do for you (and some things a lawyer can't do for you).

A lawyer can deal with your stb-ex when you can't for whatever reason, sadness, anger, whatever. This is a great service. A lawyer knows the rules of (dis)engagement, and you probably don't, another great service. A lawyer can offer you another informed perspective on critical subjective areas like property division, parenting plans, etc. A lawyer can serve as a reality check when you're trying for something that isn't smart or possible or worthwhile. As mentioned by several other dwellars, a lawyer can serve as a defender for you.

A lawyer can not keep your stb-ex from being a jerk or an ass, not now and not in the future. A lawyer could not have prevented the unfortunate circumstance described by Stormieweather. That story is tragic, and being as civil as you can be is the best way I can think of to keep that kind of harm from coming to you or to your children. A lawyer is expensive. Seriously. Is it worth it? Probably. A lawyer's not your friend though, they're working for their/your money. Don't expect them to be your therapist. They'll listen, they'll bill you, but that's not their area of expertise.

There are formal ways to conduct a civil divorce, like mediation. I tried this, and it was only partly successful. I don't know what resources you have available in your area, but this was a good start for me/us. I recommend it. Mediation was a shared expense, and as such, the mediator isn't working *for* you or *for* him, but for the both of you. The parts that worked--half price legal opinions (we each paid half), it was civil, I gave, she gave, etc. You can still have your own lawyer (though not in the mediation, that's kind of defeating the purpose). It felt fair insofar as we both felt like we were giving more than we got-ish. It's worth checking out.

I slept on this post, and I rose and decided that I needed to add my voice to the others touting the value of getting a lawyer. Hang in there.

I spoke with a lawyer today. Don't know if I can afford her; hope so. If I don't get someone good I'm going to walk away from an abusive 28-year marriage and get thumped but good on my way out the door ... not something I want to look back on as I eat cat food in my waning years. When stb-x initially agreed to a divorce by mutual consent I was so relieved I didn't think I'd have a problem dividing things up by verbal agreement, leaving the lawyers out of it, and just GETTING OUT - asap. I couldn't believe I'd be free in 90 days.

And then stb-x started in on money, telling the kids he can't afford them anymore (some are still in college and can't get loans because of his income), nickel-and-diming me on every tiny thing, telling one of my sons he could expect no more support because I'm $$$$ of his money walking out the door and it'll take him five years to make that back.

These comments are the punctuation to a huge full court press campaign to 'win me back' and make me see how much I'll be missing. And endless attempts to guilt me, plus lots of crying and using me as his confidante. And I've been gritting my teeth and taking it so I'd get my divorce in 90 days, and then he takes the cash anyway. And I can see I'll suffer through all this and then just be screwed over in the end. But I can't make him too angry or he'll a) clean out the joint accounts, which hold ALL our funds, and he watches them like a hawk, or b) do something scary. He used to be very scary. Lately, not so much ... but I'm sort of trained to be afraid of him, I'm embarrassed to say. PTSD.

But today I talked to a lawyer and a financial advisor and got a realtor lined up to appraise the house while stb-x is at work, and I am going to look out for myself. Once I stop trembling.

Hit 'send' too soon ... meant to say thanks for the advice. You guys are right. And maybe integrity sometimes means taking steps for self-preservation.

Clean out the accounts. There isn't a damn thing he can do about it. Happened to me and several others I know.
Oh wait - that may not hold true for you. What state are you in?

Trouble is, both our incomes are direct-deposited into joint accounts ... I'm leaving in 2 weeks for a residency training program and probably can't get my employer's payroll office to switch the direct-deposit to another account before I go, knowing how slowly the wheels grind. I'd miss my last three pays if I emptied the accounts now. If push comes to shove, though, I'll do what I have to. In PA I'd be accountable for the funds - couldn't just make off with them. But at least I'd have cash to pay the bills until the fighting cooled down ...

2 suggestions from my experience -
1) STOP the Direct deposit immediately.
2) Talk to a lawyer about withdrawals from the account. Based upon my experience there is nothing your stb-ex can do about it and they will be doing it if you don't. This happens all the time. The one that does it first usually wins.

FTR - I am not a lawyer nor should my comments be construed as legal advice. (CMA)

Good luck.

Good CMA. :)

(^That's what I meant and that's how it sounded in my head so I don't know why I wrote CMY...probably thinking of CYA vs CMA!)

I just finally figured out what stb means. I kept thinking it was short for 'stubborn'.
:facepalm:

lawl

hahahaha - probably because thats what I wrote!
I'm blaming this damn mouse - frikkin HATE it! :mad2:

Okay ... saddlin' up, workin' the confidence here ... going to have the house appraised this weekend while stb-x (sorry, soon-to-be-ex) is at work ... stop the direct deposit and get checks sent to my new address ... lawyer up (a challenge in this little town, where all the lawyers are general practice, take long lunches and longer weekends, and don't do nasty divorces) ... and take what's mine from the accounts. Then go for what's mine in the estate.

Sounds good in my head, just gotta work this plan. What could go wrong? Wish I were in WV already. I may be posting from a shelter next week ...

Yikes! Just heard back from another realtor. Getting TWO appraisals, one tomorrow night, one Sunday ... on a roll here ... (sorry, I know this is pathetic)

Go for it! Good luck.

Orthdoc this is far from pathetic. I am so glad you've decided to be proactive - particularly about future deposits in the stb-not-shared account.
If you think you may need to find a shelter look into it now. You may not need it, which'd be great, but wouldn't it be very reassuring to have that information up your sleeve, just in case? I am sure that just knowing you have a plan to fall back on will give you a new firmness in your dealings with stbex which you will find very helpful in the circumstances.
And know that you have a Cellar-ful of friends cheering you on, here!

Orthdoc, pathetic is absolutely the last word that comes to mind. Fucking go girl. Keep following the process, step at a time, let the momentum carry you along.

And I echo Limey's advice. Get details of a shelter now. I'd advise talking to them now and having them in the background for if crisis occurs.

Good luck. Though perhaps luck is the wrong word. Good journey.

What they all said, ortho.

This must be so hard for you and we are here for you when you need to talk. I also echo the sentiments about locating a shelter. Have that plan. If you don't need it, fine. If you do, have it planned well enough that the action you take is almost automatic.

Take care of YOU. You have all my warm thoughts today.

Not doing such a great job of taking care of myself, tonight. Every time I spend a few hours in stb-x's company I find I need to DRINK, drink, drink ... way too much. It's surreal, it's painful, it needs anesthetic.

I found out today that I can't afford the attorney I really want. Still looking for representation. Showed a realtor around the place today and it's hard - I'm giving up everything with no guarantees, no promises that anything will turn out well, that fairness will prevail. The most likely scenario is that, no matter what, after all I've given up and lost, I'll lose big-time at the end of it all. It's like a huge nihilistic joke.

The hardest part is the gardens here - I planted every plant, every tree, every shrub. I know them all intimately. I spent SO MUCH of my time and energy nurturing them. It's hard to leave at this time of year, when everything is growing and beautiful.

He still thinks I'm going away to live as a nun and come back to succumb to his studly awesomeness. He taunts me with stories of the many hot nurses who proposition him at work, and 'wonders' if they're sending a message? I wish he'd just bring them all home and get it over with. But what, and who, he wants is me, and it creeps me out. I'm angry. He wants to hot tub, so I put on a bikini and climb in and enjoy the night sky ... and then he tells me that come September his ass will be tighter than mine. What a guy. My stb-x ... what a guy.

He knows all my vulnerabilities, he knows how to hurt me. And I have to spend tomorrow with him, transferring titles on cars and so on. Sunday I gain some freedom, off to WV for 36 hours. Two more weeks. Counting, counting.

He's an ass.

I know about the vulnerabilities and knowing how to hurt you...been there, girl. It's emotional abuse. It's evil. It takes such a toll on you. But keep going, one foot in front of the other.

:comfort:

Hugs orthodoc. Oh and try not to drink too much. That stuff
won't help sweetie.

Thanks guys, doing better ... in my new place for one night of peace, anyway. Have a payroll/benefits session tomorrow. I am SO happy here! My own space. Staying off the booze, drinking some fantastic green tea my son recommended, and copying receipts/writing up stuff for the attorney.

I find it's easy to get muddled after spending a lot of time with stb-x; I bizarrely start feeling guilty, feeling bad for him! After so many years of abuse I still try to make his life easier. But then, just thinking of him angry makes me hyperventilate. And he'll be very angry very shortly.

Good to here from you. Keep checking in, and good luck for the road ahead!

This sounds normal.

In my experience, having waves of feelings wash over and through me, from different directions, and of different origins was very unsettling. I had contradictory feelings like you describe. I don't think that's abnormal. I had mixed and contradictory feelings when we were married too. Think about it, there's not much in life of any substance or complexity that evokes purely one reaction. Certainly not something as complex and nuanced and extensive as a multi-decade marriage. You might be buffeted and confused by the whipsawing, but don't doubt yourself (easy to say, harder to do), this is a turbulent time. You're on the right track.

One additional benefit of writing down the things you want to get/do/avoid/etc on a physical list is that it helps keep you focused, your intellectual, analytical mind focused even when your emotional being is ... all over the place. You can't deny the feelings--they are freaking feelings--but it is possible to act one way and feel another. The list helps you focus your actions.

Hang in there. Keep moving forward. Cut yourself some slack.

Here's an article that's been in-the-making for more than 60 years.

NY Times
PETER PRINGLE
6/12/12

Notebooks Shed Light on an Antibiotic’s Contested Discovery
I won't spoil the denouement on page 2 of the article.

I read the article and about Schatz my pants.

Unrelated to anything on the Cellar.


shit, piss, and corruption.

Typical lab bullshite. Rosalind Franklin did the x-ray crystallography that Watson and Crick used to make 'their' discovery of the structure of DNA. She accurately interpreted the data; she wasn't just a tech who didn't know what she'd recorded. Yet she was passed over when the Nobel committee awarded W&C the big prize. One of the biggest stories in 20th century science history, but who remembers Rosalind Franklin today? Only a few of us.

On other, less edifying topics ... huge fight today; narcissism reigns supreme in this household. Stb-x is livid that anyone knows of our impending divorce - the entire hospital is alive with the rumor now, G-d knows how, but small towns will be like that - yet tells me he suffers every day and night with shame over what he did all those years. The suffering is not, apparently, enough to convince him that I deserve not to be eating vegetable peels for two years while I get the necessary training to allow me to earn a living; nor is it enough to persuade him that I shouldn't use up the pittance he offers me as 'half' the value of our property in order to eat (occasionally) somewhat more than vegetable peelings. Of course, mortgaging our property is unthinkable for HIM ... he would rather sell it for a pittance and live elsewhere, telling the story of the heinous bitch who ruined his life to whomever could bear it.

And, after hours of screaming vituperative bile in my face, he knocks on my door and tells me not to go to sleep angry.

?????

He is an ass.

How long have you known him?

Call the police the next time. (Cannot believe I'm saying this)
Tell them he scared you and you feel threatened. If nothing else it puts his shit behavior on record and is more ammo for your side in the divorce.

jus sayin'

Thank you. Sorry to keep bringing up his assholistic behavior ... it's the combination of aggressive asshole abuser and cringeing victimized drama-king that drives me to drink. I suppose ... the more this happens, the easier I will find it to locate the most aggressive pit-bull lawyer I can find to defend what's left of my ability to carry on my life. Falling into the pit has its romantic attractions, but only at 2 am after one too many single malts. Rising above the pit and seeking equilibrium is a better alternative.

Oh, and what Infi said.

OMG, no way. It couldn't be.

Could it?

I need to stop seeing connections where none exist.

Shit. Too much. Leaving now. Check in later - thanks everyone, thanks.

Known him 34 years. you'd think I'd know better. But jerks dont' always declare themselves right away. This one took 10 years.

There's a time for drinking, to be sure. When you're together does NOT seem like a good one though.

I'm with classicman, at least as far as reading with dumbstruck miscomprehension that he actually suggested that course. It will be effective, but it leaves a smoking crater of no return.

Wasn't drinking tonight actually, just a general sort of reference ... but I left. Couldn't take the harassment, the sleep deprivation. Guess that smoking crater is there now ... all I want is some sleep

Ortho - please find the details of a refuge. Now. If you don't use it, fine, but if you do, won't you b glad the details are in your purse, phone or brain already? Please.

Let me in on it because wtf? ;)

Thanks - I did leave last night and took refuge with friends whose location stb-x doesn't know. I can't stay there forever but have found out about the local women's shelter ... although they publish their address on their web page!! :eek: Years ago when we lived in a bigger town/city and I had to go to the shelter there, its location was absolutely secret. This one's openness doesn't fill me with confidence, although honestly I don't see stb-x appearing there demanding to see me. He'd be too embarrassed; this is a very small town, he'd be recognized.

But I do have the address and will use it if/when necessary.

I'm glad to hear you've thought this out, Ortho. Good luck!

Got some great information from an attorney a couple of days ago. Turns out I'm entitled to much more than I ever thought - enough to make it possible to keep the kids in college, if stb-x reneges on his financial support of them. I sat in the car and cried after leaving the attorney's office. Couldn't believe I have a way to protect my kids, and shouldn't have to exist on eggs (one daily, which is what I ate in first year university when I had no money) for two years while I get my training.

I'm stoked. The thought of being able to protect the kids, of NOT being held hostage to ensure they get what they need, is infinitely empowering. I don't intend to set everything in motion until I am physically out of the house, which is in six days. His threats, from years past, of the many ways he can kill me (with his anesthetic drugs and medical knowledge) still disrupt my sleep (although honestly, he'd probably just buy a gun and use it), so I'll keep the peace for six more days. But June 23 is my freedom date. :)

be the fuck careful. recently here in houston some jackass took out his wife, errrr soon to be ex-wife then himself with his kids in the next room. be careful and don't let your guard down.

Whs.

Good going Ortho. You're handling this brilliantly.

Be careful though. Leaving, organising custody, divorce etc, all potential flashpoints for violence.

Good for you orthodoc. Remember to stay focused.

Plan the work and work the plan.

That's great news, ortho! And yes, please, do look after yourself.

Thanks ... I definitely don't want to end up like the ex-gf of a surgeon in Buffalo who was recently shot in a stairwell of the hospital they both worked at; his body was found near his lakeshore home a day or two ago. In fact, I'm beginning to wonder about the wisdom of going after all that I'm entitled to. I know he'll let me walk away with his version of what's fair, knowing I'll have to come back to him asking for money, maintaining control of both me and the kids. He's totally invested in the idea that I'll come back after my two years of training and we'll get back together. :eek: He wants to go to football games in my new town, spend weekends at a resort nearby, and take me to Mackinac Island next year. I've been stalked before, a long time ago, and it was terrifying. But until it happens I can't take action.

If I make it crystal clear that there's no chance of any future relationship or contact by taking an adversarial stance in the divorce, and then take a great deal of what he considers 'his', I just don't know what he'll do. I think the chances of extreme violence are low. But he's somewhat unstable, impulsive, and prone to dramatic gestures. Hopefully the worst he'd do would be to quit his job here and go back to Canada.

There isn't any basis for a PFA order right at the moment and he knows, basically, where I'll be living in WV. I'll be easy to find. I'm spending the afternoon mulling over the relative risks and benefits of each course of action, which unfortunately can't be quantified (the risks, anyway).

All right, enough mulling. After several hours spent keeping the peace on Father's Day/son #2's birthday I can honestly say: damn the torpedos, full speed ahead. What will be, will be. Not going to worry about it.

Atta girl!

^^WHS^^ Good luck!

Thats exactly why you will be safer there. LOTS of witnesses.


Good, keep it handy.

Well, he's thrown me a big curve. Offered a very generous settlement and an immediate divorce (the earliest we could both sign is in about two weeks) to try to get me to stay civil. I'd like to be civil - until I'm safely out of the house. I'm not looking to take the scorched-earth route if I can avoid it, but I don't want to be pursued/stalked forever as he refuses to let go of me ... but that might happen no matter which route I take. I'm thinking maybe I should grab the offer and run ...

Am I being a gullible airhead here? :confused:

depends.

is "very generous" greater than or less than "what you're legally entitled to"?

How much value do you place on a promise of civility?

What BigV said.

If it is a genuine offer and you could live with it, the (relatively) quick clean ending is possibly worth it. You only live once and the thought of wasting a year or two fighting out a divorce sounds unwise, when you could be getting on with your life.

Getting a lawyer to fight for every cent might cost more in fees and inflict months or years of stress and worry.

I'd get a lawyer to look over the settlement first to make sure there aren't any sneaky loopholes like shared debts and stuff, and to make sure it is honoured afterwards, but if it is something you could live with, maybe you should take it.

Peace of mind and a clean break is worth a lot in my book. I would definitely have your lawyer make sure there are no hidden snarks in the offer like Zen said, but if it's a fair amount to live on, and drops the big custody threats, I'd take it in an instant. You don't need exactly half of everything; you need freedom.

Trust but verify.

These are words. Promises. What is his credibility? What are the contingencies? What makes you thing *this time you're gonna kick that ball, Charlie Brown!"? That stuff.

I totally agree with you Clodfobble when you say having exactly half of everything is not necessary--true. Fair should be a good starting point. My Dad used to tell me a good deal is a state of mind. You can change your state of mind easily. But what you get and what you avoid can both be valuable. What can you do to minimize the chance or effectiveness of the things you want to NOT happen, like being stalked, or being pursued?

Actually, that's probably a whole question by itself, irrespective of any offer or contingency. In Washington, we have serious laws against stalking. Is there something like that where you live orthodoc? I don't believe there are any laws against being shitty or being mean or being unfair or being an asshole. **sigh** I don't really wish there were, just... sometimes. Anyhow.

I'd get someone else to look over the offer, the WRITTEN offer, BEFORE you sign anything. Please don't sign anything until you've had someone else, like a lawyer, read it and explain it. Not just for a reality check, but for a booby trap check, or an unenforceable promise check, or other shit. Like the "shared debts" booby trap. Don't sign that one. Divide the debts. This one is MINE that one is YOURS, no joint anything and get that shit in writing. I'm not kidding about getting it in writing. The debt collectors will want their money and not care fuck all about whose wallet it's coming from.

Hang in there. Get someone to read the offer. Keep your cool. Stay in touch.

Promises are only promises, even when they are in writing. If he reneges on payment, it can be a long expensive road to collect. On the other hand, reneging on a court ordered payment is contempt of court.

Clod's brain again serves up the wise advice. Big V is also very aware as he and I both went through similar, but different (yeh I know) situations.

Take some time and think about it. Any chance he is hiding Piles of cash somewhere or? Does he own his own business or anything like that? Are there safety deposit boxes loaded with cash? There is much to consider and be aware of it all. Seek professional guidance. Good Luck!