Anyone else have a problem with this statement?

I couldn't give a flying fuck either way about the space program, wow, we've lobbed men in space, to the moon and kept them up there for long periods. Sorry but this really has zero effect on my life and certainly does not attract the tantamount importance you seem to put on it. I live my life to enjoy it, not to vicariously explore an oversized vacuuum. Don't get me wrong, it's facinatng, but no more than any other branch of science and my life sure as hell doesn't revolve around particle physics or biochemistry.

I guess I should have prefaced everything with "This is my opinion, your mileage may vary." Clearly, yours does.

To kinda broadly paraphrase Carl Sagan on this,.. If humanity is to continue we cannot keep all our eggs in one basket.

I wouldn't want to live in space, I like green grass and high tides. There are, however, possibilities for others to chase. I'm sure there are opportunities for energy companies in space, to guess at one venture. The folks who build the infrastructure will be engineers etc... The world is overpopulated with militarists already, I'd hate to see space "exploration" continue in its present mode with room only for ex fighter jocks and other destroyers when builders are what is needed. Space based businesses would only hire for the specialties they need but that would include a broader cross-section of humanity than government is presently using.

Shuttle crews are largely from a military background because they are already trained to follow procedures and respond to external command and control. I would speculate that the private sector will make a strong effort to recruit from ex-military personnel because those are the people who will already have the precise type of training that will make them suitable for many space-based activities. That being said, there will undoubtedly be more opportunity for civilians with appropriate skills and expertise when the private sector finally manages to sustain a presence in space.

Civilians have made many inroads into the orbital component of the US space program in recent years based on their areas of expertise. I would hope that this trend will increase over time, but I wouldn't expect to see the presence of military commanders, pilots and flight specialists go away.

I think the need to discover is built into every human being. Look at many of our national heroes, Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, John Glenn, and Lewis and Clark. These people became known to all Americans and thier stories were followed as closely as they could in their respective times by the entire country. I sometimes wish I would have been born a few hundred years ago when you could actually go explore somewhere without a tour guide looking over your shoulder telling you what it all means. Space is the one of few places that human kind can go and find something new around every corner.

Curent event is but a symptom. Columbia was to be decommissioned in 2001. Heaviest, too old, too expensive, and could not even visit ISS. However the space program has bigger serious problems. George Jr's massive spending cuts imposed on NASA to put money into boondoogles such as the anti-ballistic missile system.

Under Clinton, NASA was key to building trust and cooperation between the US and Russia, and keeping aerospace engineers out of third world military programs. From this trust came some unexpected advantages such as rockets now used to launch commercial satellites.

Without performing service to ISS, shuttle's only other purpose is science. Science was probably the only reason to keep Columbia flying. Other shuttles are too tied up to service a useless ISS. Columbia which should have been retired was flying to perform the only significant function of space shuttles.

Under Clinton, some attempts to redirect NASA to new programs. But under George Jr, even science is only viewed from an MBA perspective. Cut costs. Provide no direction. Cut money while demanding big image programs - to make the administration look good.

John Kennedy spent great effort to learn what was and was not possible before directing a national goal. The moon landings were a result of that learning process. However an MBA president decides only in terms of dollars and politics. For example, his hydrogen powered car is only another boondoogle because the president does not have a clue as to how things work. Another boondoogle to mask his bad politics - promote more oil consumption and support that long list of political contributors. Hydrogen will have future purposes. But not as a this president foolishly hypes. Columbia is but the tip of an iceberg. Problems so serous that some inside NASA made direct personal appeals to the White House to stop the graveyard mentality before someone died. Problems because this president thinks like an MBA - management without knowledge or direction.

Interesting how this administration must put a spin on events so that 'lack of direction' combined with a 'cost control' mentality are not directly traceable to top management. The trick will be to limit failure only to technical reasons such as heat shield tiles. To pretend this was an isolated incident. In Washington, that should be easy. George Jr's Washington is more concerned with protecting the administration that in solving problems or providing strategic objectives. Why was Columbia still flying? 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management.

There have already been several sources inside NASA quoted as saying that budget cuts had compromised safety. I think they were borne out yesterday.

Having previously discussed a stragetic perspective, now for technical aspects. Columbia was the oldest, heaviest of the fleet. It was also doing what most every space flight has not done - carrying a massive payload back to earth. A payload that increases structural stresses. Most shuttles return to earth empty.

It is obvious that some heat shield tiles were lost when the shuttle launched. In missions where shuttles weighed less, this was not a problem but proved risky based upon resulting heat damage. However this shuttle was probably the heaviest to ever return to earth. Potential for failure was greatest. Previous shuttles with much less weight did lose tiles and suffered serious burning of the aluminum structure. But that alone does not explain a failure so quickly. Add to those missing tiles a possible failure or excessive flexing in its old wings - again due its payload.

Shuttles cannot communicate with ground during reentry for the same reasons that capsules suffer blackouts. But NASA solved this problem by communicating through TDRSS during landing. Likely, telemetry data continued to be received after voice communication was lost. But it best will take weeks before even that data is understood. Clear from evidence, massive failure occured on the left wing where it joined the fuselage. Reasons for that failure must explain why a shuttle would attempt a landing knowing that heat shield tiles were missing. Unfortunately, a decision was being made with few options which might explain why the decision to land was still made. Considering the current political climate, jettisoning the lab was not an option even though, in hindsight, it might have saved the crew.

Tom, which year did the Bush administration request a cut in the NASA budget? I'm trying to figure that one out, and I can't find it anywhere.

...zero effect on my life...
 

No effect huh? I could just say one word, but I can't. That word would be.... Velcro.

Never used Velcro? What about a re-chargeable battery (NiCad), or long lasting ones, (Lithium), like are in your computer, or miniature batteries, like watch batteries? Never drank, or your kids if you have them, from a foil-like juice container or juice box? Never had freezed-dried food? Never had a frozen meal with the ultra-thin clear plastic film covering it?

What about fuel cells? Do you have a hybrid car? Probably not, they're too new, and expensive, but they are out there and people are buying and using them. That effects you every day, less pollution.

How about a satellite dish, you got one? If so, the space program led to that. Or how about GPS? If you've used one, that came from the space and military programs combined. And your computer that you used to post your stupid post, the miniaturization of computer parts was a primary necessity for the space program, and led to faster, smaller, more energy efficient CPUs and RAMs.

Oh, lets not forget the CD players and their miniature lazers... Or, many years ago, the Video Tape, well, the mainstream availability there of, due to the space program. It was the space program that led to a more compact tape format, and smaller camera.

Oh, let's not forget things in the like of Gortex, highly insulated fabrics, nope, they didn't come form the space program. Ahh, but they keep us so warm in the cold winter months, but not the astronauts, No way... Or un-wripable foils... Or sterilizatized packaging...

I could go on but why bother? Some people just never give a rat's ass about our space program and all it has done to make this planet and technology better.

Damnit, TANG was good enough for the astronauts, it was good enough for me when I was a kid. I drank it and enjoyed it. It was my way of having a connection to the Astronauts.

No, you've never, ever used or came in contact with any single thing that derived from the space program. So, turn off you PC and go bury your head in the sand.

Sorry guys, this just pissed me off to know end. I read it at work, came home, cooked dinner, then got on here to reply. Agian, I'm sorry, but that is the most ludicrous, dumb-founded, idiotic thing I've read all f-ing day.

mw:mad:

Well, I'm glad someone said it, and I'm glad it wasn't me.:mad2:

*yawn*
Nice rant. Pity you missed my point entirely, go back to cooking dinner, please, i wasted part of my precious 56k of bandwidth downloading your crud, i'd rather now have to again at least till i'm back on cable.

Now, i hate repeating myself but clearly you were too busy peeling potatos to read what i was talking about:

In my post i specificaly stated:

(except i missed the i in facinating)

Now, since you were a little to engrossed in whether the pasta was al dente last time to work out what i was saying, i'll join the dots for you to make life easier.

My issue was with elspode's "Humanity needs it". Which, as i stated, as far as i'm concerned, is bullshit. It relates to an issue far deeper than GPS, foil containers or batteries. This idea that all of us need some mostly abstract intangible goal to make ourselves feel better, than the human race needs some idotic goal of putting something or someone somewhere that requires allot of work for the good of the mental wellbeing of all people. Thus, what i was saying, abliet inarticulately, was that I, don't need that, nor do i beleive many other people do.

That.
I what i had a problem with. As i have previously stated, science involved with the space program is often deeply interesting and has been responsible of yes, hundreds of breakthroughs that have been absorbed into everydaylife. On the other hand, that was not what i was talking about. A point you clearly missed.

I did not for example state:
"i think the science program has never produced anything of value i've had anything to do with"
Or
"I have never come into any contact whatsoever with anything that was produced, researched or developed as part of scientific research associated with or directly part of space program"

So how about your dumb-founded, idiotic post and ram it up your arse. Read before you fly off the handle, halfwit.

Now personally i beleive you're just using this as a way to vent frustration caused by other elements of your life, so do us all a favour and next time take it out on the carrots before you jump online.

Cutting edge technology.

velcro

Freeze dried food

Waldmar Jungner NiCad

Sir William Grove fuel cell

and the s. :)

~james

ah shaddup perth ;)