This discussion needs words from a female for balance.

The whole point as for as I am concerned is that no one has the right to make such an important choice for someone else. I don't care what the beliefs are; they should not be inflicted on another person.

It is that simple.

to fuel the fire
 

The proceeds from the sales of the "Choose Life" plate go towards funding adoption clinics and foster care.

Brian

Which is why we'll never get anywhere on this issue. Neither sides militants are willing to compromise at all. As much as the killing of a human fetus offends my moral code, I'm willing to look the other way if you don't involve me. But thats not enough for the ideologue, he demands I help pay for 8-9 hundred thousand abdications of personal responsibility each year. We live in an society which increasing believes that we all need to be directed from government as to what is right or wrong. Everything from PETA telling us not to ship chicks by air to abortion militants (of both stripes) telling other people what is moral (yes, the left does it as well). When the State mandates right and wrong we lose diversity as a people. If we lose diversity we threaten our chances of survival as a species.

Disclaimer: If I were President, I would work to help lower the number of abortions. I would not work for legislation to prohibit it, however. So, basically, I like the pro-life ideal, but it doesn't work in the real world, so I'm willing to concede defeat and work for a better solution.

Now. Let's get some facts straight. Abortion, in late-term, is ending life. No, the baby hasn't been born yet. But where do you draw that line? Is it after the baby has passed through the vagina? After the umbilical cord is cut? Is it okay to bring the child out and crush its head while it's still connected to the umbilical cord? Is that okay? Is it okay to cut open the head of a 5-month old fetus and drain its brain from its skull? If it's okay 4 months before it's actually "born", then why isn't it okay 4 months after it's born?

That fetus would grow up to be a human being. Why is it okay to kill it right before it is born but not when it's 20 years old? What's the difference? We all cringed when Iman Hiju, the 4 month old baby, was killed by Israeli shell fire. We'd all find it undeniably tragic if a pregnant woman was run over by a bus while walking her doggie. We would mourn for the woman as well as the unborn child. But if the mother wants to kill it, it's okay?

Problem is, I actually have known girls that used abortion as a birth control method. One didn't like the inconvenience of condoms, so she just went without. She would stay pregnant until she started gaining weight (being pregnant is great birth control!), and then she'd get an abortion and start it all again. Is this okay?

Where do we draw the line? Obviously it's unacceptable for some militant to kill an abortion doctor. Just as it's unacceptable for an abortion doctor to kill a... wait, that's okay, right?

Lot of anti-death penalty people here on the Cellar. Where do you draw the line? Most anti-death penalty persons I know also are pro-choice. Does no one else see the silliness here? Most pro-death penalty people I know are pro-life. Am I the only one that doesn't miss the self-contradiction?

Was it okay for Timothy McVeigh to be put to death? Most people would agree that if anyone deserved it, he did. Well, what makes the executioner any better then? He pushed a button that killed a human being. Should he be put to death as well? Where do we draw that line? If abortion is okay, then why isn't state-sanctioned killing?

Jaguar talks about how he's pro-choice and then bitches and moans about innocents dying in Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Afghanistan. He's not alone - a lot of people do this, and I'm not trying to single him out (but he's so fucking PROLIFIC, he's posted his opinion on every day thing under the sun). Well, what about the unborn babies that are killed. What did they ever do? There really are third-trimester abortions. That wasn't just made up. I have seen the pictures. Where do we draw the line? It isn't that black and white.

And after saying all that... I do strongly support after-pregnancy abortive measures in the cases of incest and rape. Maybe that's because my sister is a rape victim (when she was 7, no less). I don't know. But I can't imagine forcing a rape victim to foster a child that was the product of what is probably the worst experience in their life. Asking one to do that is inhuman. That's probably why I, a Republican, supported the Democratic Virginia gubernatorial candidate instead of the Republican - he was fiercely pro-life, even in cases of rape and incest. Well, you can't draw that line there. It isn't that black and white.

The problem with the pro-life ideal are its principals. RU-486 should be standard everywhere. But to pro-life, RU-486 only promotes promiscutity. RU-486 could not be obtained in America.

Don't teach about sex in schools. Kids are less promiscuous when they are ignorant. Right.

Abortion is then the inevitable alternative especially when religion (and quotes from the bible) rather than logic are more important. The pro-life movement, in particular its underlying philosphies, are a significant reason for the problems. It is a problem so often traced to religion that worship false idols - as the Greek and Roman religions did previously.

Oh what a fucking crock of shit. Reminds me of some text I read of some nutters anti-abortion site. Ohh lets put it all in reallyreally messy words to put people off the idea because I want to enforce my moral code on other people. Fantastic.

3rd trimester abortions are very, very rare. I'd draw the line what the fetus is conscious, or develops one, estimated around the end of second term - oh look at that - the same point at which its unadvisable to have an abortion in the first place. Sure some people abuse it but it's not common. However callously you word it, it is still a traumatic experience for the girl in question.
Yes I' mseeing alot of sillyness here -mostly around the idea that all abortions happen to fully conscious humans not fetuses. same deal. Ohh other people SPEAKING their mind who DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU. How dare they....

Griff: I read on one of the posts above that it was - pardon me.

Not much of a defense (for the purpose of this imagine I live in the US and pay more tax than I do atm) On the same basis I’d say stop dropping bombs on Afghanistan, funding faith based charities etc, some of your tax money will always be used to things we don't like - get over it, its nessacery for government to function.

I find both bits of this hilarious - firstly the sheer stupidity of the people that have actually used this argument and the obscenely religious basis for it. Someone please inform me WHY people shouldn’t go round, having sex with people they like OHMYGOD out of wedlock for OHMYGOD fun?? Non-religious reasons only please.

Katkeeper - you go girl! =) nail on the head =)

Haven’t you heard? Artists are heathen Satanists ;)

They've been doing a very good job already - anyone that tries to argue that rape victims don't have the right to abortion get an automatic "I’m a callous, blind, brain-dead moron with an extremely weak grip on reality" red card.

Since I’ve probably not offended someone ;) ill go a little further a post a few quotes from people who generally draw more respect than me.

As we retreat from religion, our ancient opiate, there are bound to be withdrawal symptoms. - Salman Rushdie.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government." T. Jefferson

Sit peacefully in a church and think of church history: witchburning
perhaps, or child abuse, genocide, the amassing of disgusting wealth,
the repression of women, inquisitions, castrating child choir singers,
the denial of Santa Claus and the support of fascists in power.
- Kaz Cooke, The Little Book of Stress

But that's just the point, isn't it?

Almost noone believes that post-birth "abortions" should be allowed. It's rather accepted that that is murder.

Most people believe that third trimester is wrong either because the fetus/child has brain wave activity or whatever other reason.

Some people draw the line sooner because there is a face and a hearbeat and blah, blah, blah.

The point is that it is simply a matter of judgement -- where to draw the line. And that is why this issue is unlikely to be settled. There is no inication that we will ever have an answer to the question "At what point does the combination of sperm and egg become a human being?"

As for "enforcing my moral code" on others, to a great extent, that's what ALL laws do. Most people agree that it's wrong to steal and therefore theft is illegal. Now, an argument against that would be "well, you're protecting another human being's rights!" Well, that's what pro-lifers think they're doing.

This is why I am very ambivolent on this issue. I believe in privacy and the right to make your own choices -- especially when forcing a woman to carry a child to term seems almost like a form of slavery -- but I also do not know, no one does, when human life begins. If we could answer that, I'd know my position instantly, but we can't.

So, it's just a question of whether we risk privacy/women's rights for the sake of the risk to the rights of an "unborn child", if it is one.

Given the lack of proof either way, I slightly tend to defending the rights of those I know to be human beings. But it's a tenious position at best and I have a serious problem with the FEW who use abortion as a method of birth control.

In summary, as someone above said, this is probably an unresolvable issue. There will likely be militants on both sides of this issue long after some of the recently born infants die of old age.

So you narrow it down to an issue of when a child is considered...a child
Point of conciousnes, in a few years this will be defineable, problem solved. Only people i've heard saying sperm meeets egg stage are the militant nutters so voila, problem solved.

Not so much "rights" which are and abstract and relative thing anyway but standards. If i break into your house nad steal your tv, you lsoe something. If i have an abortion (which is unlikely for obvious reasons), you lose nothing, thats why i'd say one is about morality and one is not. Therefore they are simply trying to put their moral strictures on other people - it is in reality, not their affair. If it was for example, right to freely copy IP then it ouwld be on hte basis they no doubt hold rihgts to some IP or something with IP, such as a CD. BUt they have no claim in any way at any part of someones elses pregnancy.

Missing the point. If you break into someone else's house and steal something from them, I lose nothing. Only in the rare case where I am the victim do I lose something.

Even if I knew I would never be the victim, I still think theft should be illegal. So, it's not the fact that I feel I may be hurt that makes me put "my moral standards" on other people for theft. For me, it is a question of decent human rights.

Again, I am not stating a belief on this (since I don't have one), the people who are protecting this believe that they are protecting a human life, just the same as if someone were to kill their 5 year old child.

As for the "type of people" who say that life begins at conception, I contend that you call them crazy (or whatever it is that you called them) simply because you don't agree with them.

Unfortunately there is NO scientific evidence on this and no objective way to judge it one way or the other. It's all a matter of opinion.

And, in a question of basic rights vs. human life, both sides will tend to get heated.

     Umm, Yeah what Lisa said... Way to go.

     A couple of things though, I'm pro-choice largely because I think my rights/morals should not extend to the body's of others. Just like I keep my mouth shut when I'm at a chinese buffet with someone on our third plate and they start bitching about needing to lose sixty pounds. (it's happened) Personaly I hate abortion, I would not associate with a woman that uses abortion as birth control. I also would not tell her she's a bad person. I think she has the right, I just find it repugnant.

     This is not just a theory to me. When my son's mother became pregnant (the method of birth control simply failed, it happens) she talked about getting an abortion. Everytime it was mentioned my entire chest locked up and I felt cold. When asked my how I felt I told her that I'd rather she not, but it was her choice to make. In the end we broke up and I got custody, by her agreement. Point is I believe it's the woman's choice, even when it is my fetus.

     As for late-term abortions, as Jag said it's rare. When it does happen it is almost never just an arbitrary decision but a medical one. Like something went wrong and the mothers health is in extreme danger. Also there are very few legitimate doctors willing to do them for any other reason.

We don't need to get hung up on this but for the sake of clarity, in the States we have to pay for our plates (plus extra for the zoo the museum or whatever org you're supporting) so the car owner is paying not the taxpayer. This ignores that its coming out of a public agency which is to me a problem. As far as me funding every other evil done by the government, I always advocate voluntary solutions, when I can. When it comes right down to it the only truly moral solution is individualist anarchy, but before we go there I'd like to try to pare down the government as far as we can to minimize coercion and maybe try living under a less heavy handed regime. You do your thing I do mine and we both pay full price for our decisions.

Anyway, if I pissed anyone off too much, I'm sorry but its the nature of the conflict.

Pro-Life, and Why
 

Here's a brief explanation of what and why I believe.

I believe that you cannot hope to define a point in fetal development at which a fetus is "alive", "human", "conscious", what have you. From the moment of conception, the fetus is a living human being with all the rights and privileges of you or I.

Now, I recognize that not everyone shares that belief. That’s terrific. Far be it from me to impose my beliefs on your body. THAT’S NOT WHAT I WISH TO DO! Your body doesn’t enter into the equation! As soon as you accept the fact that the fetus is a human, the rights of the mother to mess about with her body absolutely pale into oblivion relative to the right of the child to live! So many of the whole pro-life/pro-abortion skirmishes become moot when you realize that its not a matter of the mother’s life, its a matter of the child’s life.

Re: rape, incest, etc... I can understand that these assaults are horribly scarring, painful events for a woman. However, aborting the child will not make the memory of the event disappear. For nine months, the mother will have to literally carry around a reminder of a traumatic event. I do not envy this burden. Once again, this is a non question. Would you kill another individual to avoid that burden?

RU-486? Merely a more sanitized form of abortion, but no less despicable. Again,as soon as you accept the life of the fetus, so many other issues become trivial.

I am not a religious individual. I do not participate in anthrax hoaxes, nor do I bomb clinics. I am a white male student. I read, I study, I discuss, I vote. I believe that pregnancy is not just an avoidable nine-month hassle that women are unfortunately shackled with. It is part of our nature that we must realize is the beginning of a living being from the moment that being is conceived.

     It doesn't? Huh, I thought the child grows in, is proctected by and nourishes off the mothers body. Go figure.
     Ah, so this is a fact now? I'm glad to know it and here every other person on the thread has thought it was an opinion. Including those that were pro-life. Care to share your sources?
     Oh yeah, that's right, it only last's nine month's. Odd thing though, the two pregnancies I've caused created these things called children. They've both far outlasted the 'nine month reminder period'. (And I'm quite thankful for it.)
Sure would, I hear killing the rapist can help. I'm willing to put down ANY rapist. I also can understand a woman wanting to destroy a handful of healthy cells that are living off her body. (Notice I said woman, I'll come back to that.)
     I agree with that. It's not just an avoidable nine-month hassle. It's much more than that. But that doesn't mean that it isn't an avoidable nine month hassle.
     So we must realize this, eh? Darn and I thought I was free to have a differing opinion. I already asked for your source so I'll drop this here.

     Now, on to what I said I'd get back to. One thing we have in common is that we are both men. As such this is nothing but a hypothetical discussion. We cannot be pregnant. So no matter what either of us say we can never know exactly how we would feel in this situation. As such I've tried to express my opinions from that view point. However as soon as I know why I "must realize" what you say I'll be happy to tell women that they have no rights with regard to what is happening inside their own body's.

     Oh yeah, and welcome to the Celler. I'm pretty new here myself, it's a great place and the people are pretty cool. Well, as long as you don't demand they think like you do they are anyway...

Wel i'm glad you find that such an easy concept to swallow, i don't. To assume a group of to start off with, 2 cells has the same rights as a person is well.......silly? If cells have the same rights as people then surely plants should have the same rihgts as animals? After all just because one is not concious shouldn't mean it doesn't have the right to the same rights. Its still alive, right? What makes these cells human? They could be reproducted very easily in a lab, heck they could be growing in a lab. While what is human is an incredibly murky ground the key concept that has been with us for centuries is conciousness, for a long time the arguement was that we were higher than everythign else because we were concious and animals are not, while that opinion is under fire the central concept fo conciousness being quintesential to what makes us human has not gone away. Every sperm and egg has the potential to become a person, as does every little bunch of cells, keyword: potential. (i decided to put my opinion as fact as that seems to be blase around this thread and at least i have decent backing)


See above, when do cells become a fetus?

I hate to be offensive but your are STUPID AND CALOUS BEYOND THE RELMS OF HUMAN COMPREHENSION. Goddamn have fucking......words fail me. LEts get personal. A freind of mine, 17 was raped. Date raped, drugged and raped. Yes, she got pregnant. SHe had a very early abortion. Oddly enough. Now first of all you seem to dismiss jsut how traumatic this is wiht a quick wave of your hand - how the hell can you? This is something that often SCREWS PEOPLE UP FOR LIFE, its not like somehting you get over in a couple of weeks..... Not to mention the fact the kid, belonging to a guy that violated you in the most horrible way doesn't dissipear when he's born, she then has to LOOK AFTER THE CHILD DIPSHIT. As for your psuedojustification that a bunch of cells is more important than anyhing else see above. Sorry but for obvious reasons - this particular opinion kinda gets to me.

So we're back to rights, and what decent human rights are...good luck defining that. Of course i could say that your definition of "decent human rights" is still putting your morals on others....

As now proven by someone how fits two of my cirteria of a pro-lifer very snugly that opinion and such extremes as no abortion in cases of rape seem to go hand in hand. I'm sure you'd think it crazy if someone raped you at knifepoint in an alley and then expected you to keep the child.

     Heh, I was wondering how long it would take you to find that guy's post Jag. Now there's two or three more people I expect his approach to have greatly offended. Ah, they'll probably have seen it by the time I check it again tomorrow afternoon.

     Don't be shy, just because Jag or I already said what you were thinking. Reiterate the point. It'll be good clean fun. You know who you are, the very people I was speaking of with the "don't demand they think like you do" remark.

     By the by, that end bit about 'Welcome to the Cellar'. It was sincere. I realize that with the precedeing post that it may have come off as sarcasm. It was not, I wouldn't post just to be hostile. I rather like dissenting opinions. After all, I need them for my point of view to grow. If I came on strong it was more due to the stating of opinions as facts and telling me what I "must realize".