Yeah, it was bm.

pisspot? :eyebrow: huh?

PISSPOT?

PISSPOT?

What the hell is that?

OMG, I am so laughing my ass off.

My coworker just asked me what I was cracking up about! :p

Well, I'm not laughing anymore - I just got outta my boss's office and he is pissed. Gave me the "You on that damn Cellar thing again!?!?!??!?! One more time and you're. . . ." :worried: bummer

Note: I am on again to post - eff him :finger:

Don't get into trouble!:eek:

We laugh in our office all the time. Even my boss will laugh at me for laughing at a funny email or something.

In what sort of environment do you work, yesman?

LMFAO! I can't stop laughing, I can't breath and it hurts!

Ugg, so you can't drop the idea that there are more groups than just 'people who agree with your opinions on feminism' and 'misogynists'. Look at what he's saying, then look at what I've said, they're two completely different things.

I'm confused...

I just thought I'd take a moment to say that every time I see the title of this thread, I start hearing Freddy Mercury.

That is all.

I thought you where rising above me and yet, there you go again.

Sandbox is getting crowed in here. When the weak want to defeat the strong they gang up on them.

What a bunch of little childish babies. Do you really think your inept comic responses add anything to your arguments? Like children in a sandbox when you can't play the way you want you cry.

As for my grammar and spelling, deal with it, I'm free writing and none of you I have tried to converse with deserve even one nano-second of second thought least any corrections.

Why don't you superior intellect show me or link to the page on this message board all that evidence of my inaccuracies and your similar accurate retorts. I would love to see you kids show me where you put me down on the topics and get off you piss-ant infantile sandbox rankings.:bawling:

Put your hands between you legs and grab you balls. It doesn't matter if your comments are different than mine but playing into there weak hand makes you just as weak.

Try reading there comments as they are, childish, ignorant, and unfounded. There poor attempt at outrage through comedy that evades the topics and makes the poster the topic, through insults, is so obviously pathetic and transparent I’m surprised you would worry about there "opinions" of you.


:vikingsmi

Yeah, quite wrying abut there opions of you.

Sincerely,

Pisspot

At least I'm getting through to you...pisspot.:biglaugha

:lol:

(Is this where I call you numnuts?)

HAHAHAHA!!! :lame:

--------------------------------> departs the thread laughing at an intellectual infant using verbal insults in an attempt to prop up his tattered, ineffective arguement.

Do what you gotta to do babe.

Just remember who started this. I personally want conversations on issues and topics. If I want to trade insults all I need to do is have dinner with my extended family.:jig:

Well now it all becomes clear. He's from a family which thinks that it's ok to treat your nearest and dearest with contempt. No wonder none of the people here have had an ounce of respect from him.

. . .or for him.

9th- I do think that there are lots of people out there like BM, its very unfortunate and annoying, but true. BM though is one of the more extreme anti-female idiots. Many men do think that a women is the responsible party when it comes to sex. This is simply not a resonable belief. Each person is responsible for their own decisions whether is has to deal with having sex or what they eat. I don't think that you are a horrible person because you take into account a woman's sexual history/behavior when you judge her for a potential mate, but realize that a woman has the same right to judge you in the same way. If you don't respect a woman after she gave herself up easy to you, she is just as able to have no respect for you. Think about why she might've been so easy, some people just don't put any importance on sex, others don't respect themselves. I've known both kinds of people, male and female.
BM- Are acting this way just for the shock factor? Thats what I'm beginning to think. Do you not get enough attention from your parents? Poor poor you.

Smells like troll in here. Let's see if this works as Thread Freshener...

So...the topic of this thread is Jealousy. Thought I'd throw my update on my own somewhat nonstandard home life in here.

For those of you who glimpsed my Friday Nite Lit thread, regarding my intoxicated ponderings over my wife's first solo carnal outing in several years, well, my turn has come around tonight. I'll be seeing a lady who had been half of the couple we cavorted with the last time we were on the Poly path. Following their experience with Mrs Elspode and I, they moved on and had a relationship with another couple, and my lady friend's husband ended up running off with the corresponding couple's female half. Not one of Polyamory's shining moments, huh?

My wife is unconcerned over the notion that my lady friend and I will possibly be engaging in intimate physical acts. No, she's concerned that my lady friend and I actually like each other too much. She's worried that my lady friend will want me to herself or some such, despite my own decided lack of desire to either add a second serious partner to my life, or to leave my wife, whom I love and admire.

I bring this up because I find it odd, myself. From my male vantage point, I actually have more problem with the idea that some other dude can make my woman twist and shout, that someone else is going to be better in the sack than I. I mean, *I* believe she's not going to run off, but it still bugs me that someone else might be a better cocksman. She, on the other hand, isn't worried about (as she puts it) where I "stick my d*ck"...she's afraid I'll share some part of me or my life with someone else that I don't share with her, or that I'll be smitten and weak, and *I'll* run off.

So...ladies...gents...what say you? Are we *both* irrational? Is one of us experiencing a more sensible "jealousy" than the other? Or are we just destined to burn in Hell?

Perhaps then the poly path isn't a good idea? Why do you want to have sex with someone other than your much loved partner? Jealousy can be the sign of a deeper problem. In this case it seems like insecurity is really the issue. Maybe you should discuss this decision with another poly couple or a couple's counsler. I know I wouldn't be able to handle the idea of my boyfriend having sex with another woman. She might (very likely) be better than I, and plus it just seems unhygenic.

Hey, how did I start anything? :cool:

Although I can understand the desire to have sex with another, I could not handle either doing it nor having it done to me. I have already experienced that pain. Although it was under different circumstances - lt just doesn't work for me - the jealousy would drive me nuts. Whether it be because he was better in bed, because I'd worry that she was seeing him behind my back or even worse that she would run off with him. This is why I am a "1 woman man" - mentally/emotionally, I can't handle more than that. After what my ex-wife did to me - there is NO WAY l would ever even consider doing anything to any partner I have - EVER. After the loss of my 1st child, thats the worst pain I have ever known. I would never inflict that upon anyone else intentionally or not.

And that is the tricky part of all of this. Unintentional pain can and does get inflicted...but it gets inflicted in normal day to day relationship issues as well.

This isn't my first choice of paths, either. Its my wife's, because, while we are a damn fine couple in most ways, our sex life together hasn't exactly risen to the level of fulfillment of her needs. She's a pretty adventurous sort, far in excess of my own moves, and I respect that. Bottom line is, she's going to have her fun one way or the other. I think that she'd be perfectly happy with me sitting at home while she trotted it out, but *I* can't hang with that. It ruffles my sense of fair play. So, while I don't have any great desire (spiritual, philosophical) to be a Poly person, I do view the situation with equal amounts of enthusiasm and trepidation. We have, after all, agreed upon this, with rules and restrictions, in advance, so it is definitely not cheating.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I fully well recognize how intimately we bind, well, *intimacy*, with everything else that makes up a relationship between people. However, when one doesn't have any particular moral or ethical constraints against adults doing to each other what adults see fit to do, well...this is one of the things that can occur.

MTP, you're right...it most definitely *is* a self-image/confidence issue. When I'm not giving my wife everything she thinks she deserves, making her want more, then she feels as though *I* don't want her. She feels undesireable. Now, that may be her fault, or it may be mine, but as Pagans, a Poly lifestyle is viable and not unusual. We have a couple who has been Poly for over 20 years as very close friends, and so we have access to arguably the most open and successfully Pagan couple in our community for insights, advice, apocryphal and cautionary tales...the whole panoply. We did, in fact, spend several hours just a couple of weeks ago discussing our feelings with both each other and with them. We've already been through years of marriage counseling...in short, we're as prepared as we can be for the experience, and we are both veterans of Poly living.

I still like to hear what others think, especially non-Poly folks. Perspective is important. I'm not saying any of this to shock anyone or to unduly draw attention. Cellarites are my extended family, in a sense, and I value and look forward to your opinions.

I'm non-poly but mainly because I'm in a new marriage. In my previous life, married 23 years, there were plenty of times when I just wanted to 'be with' someone else. He had some serious ED problems and I just wanted to get laid right and proper. I didn't want an affair of the heart or anything like that. I would have gladly let him go wandering off if I would be allowed to do the same. For now, it's still new and lovely so I'm not going anywhere.

AT 50, I've had my share of those problems, LH, and that's made things bad for *both* of us. Her, because she blames herself, and me, because I blame myself (it is, after all, me with the problem, yes?).

At present, things are functioning well (thanks for asking, even though you didn't), but several long stretches where things were otherwise have certainly left their marks. It is one piece of the complex puzzle that has brought us to this path once again.

Yeah, I don't know you well enough to ask a question like that, but not because I don't care.
His was not the occasional occurrence, nor was I worried that it was me. Oh it was him. He has a infatuation (if you can call it that) with masturbating in the morning after I had gone to work, then comes the evening and you know, after a certain age men can't get it up twice in 24 hours. He wouldn't save it for me though. So like I said, I left him but for many more reasons than just that.

Girl, that's not ED...that's S-E-L-F-I-S-H.

No shit...jack-off-itis is not a condition you can blame on outside forces.

Well, since you asked, at this point in my life, I don't think I could do the whole poly thing. Don't have a problem with it really, but I know that my jealousy would definately get the best of me. I am kind of low on self-esteem and I would have all these scenerios happening in my head. I also don't think the current BF would like it if I was with other guys, either.

Even if I didn't have the jealousy, I don't know if I would be comfortable with the whole situation. I am not judging you in anyway, just my opinion. I tend to be slightly old-fashioned in my thoughts. (some not all)

I will say that the two different views that you and your wife have (you worried about the physical and her worried about the "spiritual" or mental connection) actually seems very appropriate to me. I am trying to think of why it does, but it's not coming right in my head. I think it is because sometimes women value the connection between two people rather than the physical. Like this one guy that wasn't the most attractive, but he was such a nice guy the more I talked to him, made that connection, the more I thought he actually was attractive. I want to say that men DO value the spiritual connection, but sometimes are worried about the physical aspect of it. I am thinking more along the lines of a certain person I know who thinks me getting off is one of the most important things. To me, it is the closeness that I like.

Am I making any sense?

He's a jerk. I actually have him in my cellphone as His Assholiness. One of my sons was using my phone once and I hear him say "oh real nice mom" HAHAHAHA
But I digress.. Jealousy is a strange and wonderful thing. It keeps us together or tears us apart. It's quite nice to not be thinking about anyone else. Ah.. contentment.

My wife has sort of a bifurcated point of view...when it is me, she doesn't care about the physical, except that it is a lack of appropriate physical attention that disturbs her...except that it is because she feels that it means I don't desire her.

Its all pretty damn confusing. And judge away. People do (not that you were).

I would never judge you, I respect you too much :)

I don't know, but if she is worried about things and you are worried about things, I wonder if it is the best option. Have you tried other ways to work it out? I am assuming you have, though because you did say that you had gone through this before.

Sheesh - I wish I had something useful to give you. I think that my younger age is coming into play here. I am trying to help, but just don't have the experience to.

So Elspode she isn't satisfied in bed? and thats why she wants someone else? Geeze, seems kinda odd to me, my b/f isn't the best (neither am I) but I could never really imagine myself having sex with someone else. Maybe its because sex to me is much much more then just the physical. We each try our best and if one thing or another isn't working we try something else. We research different things we could do. I've even thought about buying a toy for myself, haven't yet though (I watched Sex Talk with Sue Johnson and now I'm scarred). I'm sure you're experienced with all of the different kinds of methods, but I wouldn't give up if I were you. Especially since both of you are having doubts.
EDIT: I had a friend who bought a vibrator so that she could "show" her boyfriend what to do. Fortunatly I didn't have to hear the details, but it might be worth a try.

I thought everyone owned at least one vibrator, either for use when they're alone, with their partner or a bit of both?

'Spode, I think if either of you werent the least bit concerned or jealous, I would be worried.

I would think what you are both feeling/thinking is perfectly natural for an involved couple going down this path. Its human nature to be jealous (are we the only species that feels jealousy?) and if either of you werent concerned about the consequences in the least...I would be concerned that these little trists (I dont know what to call them) werent actually what you are describing.

I've been to swingers parties (non participating - its a long story) and from what I gather, everyone there who is actually in a devoted and loving, healthy relationship...all go through the emotions you and your wife are feeling.

I believe its healthy to feel what you are feeling, insecurity and jealousy, in healthy doses are great things.....the possessive insane insecurity.....really unhealthy.

I have no great insight, but I seriously love your openness and honesty on here :)

I think if you were both 100% ok with it, no problem... have fun.
If not... you need to work it out together.
Swinging should be a vacation, IMO, not therapy or to prove a point.

Nothing we do, the Mrs and I, is ever so simple as a vacation...not even vacations. :p No, we tend to analyze everything down to the eleventeenth decimal place, dissecting, slicing and dicing it all, trying to come to some meeting of our very, very different minds.

I'm not 100% behind her reasons for wanting to engage herself with others for recreational sex, and she's not 100% behind how I approach such matters...namely, that attraction to someone is, for me, not so simple as, "Yo, sistah, you so fine...hows about we do each other, yo?" As I repeatedly have stated here, attraction for me is about the whole person. For me, having off with a new person is equal parts of the conversation and interpersonal interchange before and after as it is about the whole humpin' and pumpin' portion of the festivities.

I can't help who I am or how I become aroused, and Mrs E understands that all too well. That's why she sees me as a higher risk than she. That's why I have to work major overtime making her feel secure, assured, confident, desired by me.

It can be exhausting. Literally, in the case of today, as I got 3 hours of sleep after all was said and done and talked about last night. And...I did not have sex with that woman. Much talking between us, with me largely listening, and about twenty minutes of passionate necking before I stood up to get home by my curfew of 12:00 AM. But there is going to be a next time for all concerned.

And so the tawdry beat goes on... :D

It all sounds like a game to me.
Sorry, I don't mean that as an insult, I really don't.
It is very foreign to me, I tend to remove myself from situations where all the cards are not on the table. I cannot offer any more than I have, other than I truly hope this works out for you. I believe you are a nice person and want your relationship to work.
I just think she is trying to get you to do it while flying blind. She needs to tell you exactly what she wants, expects and how you are supposed to give it to her.
IMO, she does not want to have sex with another man... she want you to react in a way that only she knows. Most likely something involving looking like a Cavalier swordsmen busting down a door, metaphorically.

Our cards are very much all on the table. The problem is that my cards are in one language, and hers are in another. We do not intepret each other's iconography very well, so to speak. I sometimes make the comparison thusly: Just because your radio doesn't tune to all frequencies doesn't mean that the air isn't teeming with those frequencies. She sees it as me being unable to give things, and I see it as her being unable to receive them. The bad part is, from each individual point of view, both of us are right.

If it is a game, she's the only one playing it. Me, I'm just going with the flow. Even though I'm not 100% on board yet, I do not find the prospect of resuming what was a very enjoyable series of encounters with my lady friend after a four year postponement to be a bad thing by any means. I think that my wife's take on her side of things is fairly similar as far as the actual entertainment value goes. When we are monogamous, we don't have a very good sexual relationship. When we're poly, we almost do each other to death. Does it make sense? Of course not.

If it is working fine... but you are trading sex for paranoia. I don't think it is a fair trade.

As for all the cards... I call BS. She knows what straight talk is. So does my wife. Playing dumb sometimes, when it is convenient, is a game, nothing more, nothing less.
I did not say you were playing... I suggest she it.

Yes it does. I'm having a tough time getting my mind around that. I find it hard to believe you are a prude, won't do anything she is up for...or is it stamina? Sounds more like acquiesced than agreed. How about moral/ethical restraints against making your chosen partner, someone you love and care about, feeling pressured into an uncomfortable situation, unsure about their future, doubtful of their abilities as a lover/equal partner? Pagan, schmagan..... poly lifestyle may be a viable lifestyle in your teachings, in your spiritual philosophy but that doesn't make it mandatory, or even viable, in your marriage, in your head, in your personal choice for your own comfort. There's a big difference between armchair discussions on what you think is the right attitude to have about how others live their lives, and deciding how you feel about your own arrangement. Just because you feel you shouldn't tell other couples what they can and can't do has no bearing on deciding what you're comfortable with in your own. Well you've got it.....oh boy, I get to be the dick..... you're fucking up. You've rationalized, or been rationalized, into a lifestyle you don't want. You've looked at the pros and cons, listened to the analysis, been persuaded life will be better.........BUT, you've ignored your gut. Bad move, your gut knows the truth...believe me...I've been there, done that. :cool:

Straight shooting from my very good friend Bruce and my new friend Rkzenrage. I asked for no less, and got strong and valid points of view. I'll likely have something to say after I've mulled and digested the commentary, but I want to be sure you guys know that I very much appreciate the input and I am taking to heart and mind your thoughts.

I'm sure you are...I expected as much.....that's why I gave you an honest opinion, my friend. No matter what, we're with you. :grouphug:

Absolutely... at least you are working at this marriage and not just throwing in the towel like most do. Thanks for the role model.

I kept trying out different responses els, but in the end the idea of being poly in a relationship is so unfathonable to me. I don't feel that I can give sufficient advice, other than do what you need to to feel comfortable and happy in your relationship. If you don't like the idea of another man satisfying your wife, tell her so. The sex aspect can be just as important as other areas of the relationship, don't down grade it b/c it seems only physical, for many (seemingly including yourself) it goes way beyond the physical. Perhaps a change in enviroment, i.e. romantic getaway or new bedroom methods would help the two of you out. You could even remodel the bedroom to make it sexier and more comfortable (add strategically placed mirrors, some silk sheets, aromatherpy candles ect). I read recently that the bedroom should be reserved for sex and sleep only, remove TV, radio (not alarm tho) make sure that you aren't eating/drinking (unless its for "fun"), or doing bills/work in there. I'm biased b/c I'm anti-poly (for myself atleast) but if there is any doubt in your mind I think that you should halt activity until such issues are completely resolved.

A lot of good stuff here from all the posters.

Els, you always amaze me.

My wife and I have a different kind of poly, everything except sex. We have friends we go out on dates to events, dinner, lunch, all kinds of things. Mrs RS and I have some different interests, so it works.

On the other hand, being intimate at home with teenagers around is impossible. So, Mrs RS and I go to local hotels about once 1-2 months. I wouldn't think about some other guy being better or worse, just that it happens so rarely, that I want to be in on the action everytime.

Just Jumpin' In
 

Okay, so for those of you who don't know, I'm ElSpode's wife. I've had a membership on here for years, but hadn't logged in for a couple due to the fact that I believe this is his space and his extended family. I don't like to tread on that, so I don't buzz in here often.

However, Els told me that he had posted about our newest arrangement and I couldn't stop myself from reading what he had written, and subsequently, what all of you had to say. In doing so, I thought that I should put a few things straight from my own point of view. Don't know that this will clear up anything, but might at least give a differing outlook for some of you.

I love Els more than anything. He is my life, and I adore him. I find him sexually stimulating and enjoy our intimate times together. However, that is the rub. It seems that although I know he loves me dearly, Els has a pretty difficult time finding me stimulating enough just on my own. For the past five years, we have had intimate contact a total of 10 times prior to this past month. Those 10 times only occurred after much begging, crying, pleading and threats of leaving. No woman wants to feel that undesirable.

After several discussions about how this might be resolved, I was informed by my husband that I alone was not enough to get his libido up. That, in fact, what he needed was outside stimulation in the form of either myself or himself having an affair outside of the marriage. Just talking about it this past month has increased the intimate contact between us and thus proving his point. Therefore, I have agreed to enter into a poly situation, although quite frankly what we are doing is not poly...rather it is an open marriage. Poly is where you are actually building family and Els is not interested in that.

Please understand, I'm not unhappy with my husband, I just want more physical intimate contact. That does not equate to direct intercourse for ME, however, it does for him. Thus, I am limited by what he is willing to do or not do. I am, quite frankly, tired of living like a nun, especially when I have always been an extremely sexual person. Would I be happy to only have sex with my husband....you bet. However, since he claims that's not an option, I'm doing what I can here to save our marriage.

I have laid all my cards on the table. I have explained in detail EXACTLY what I want and in what way and how it feels good or doesn't....and it ain't happening. XOXOBruce....Dear, Els is quite a prude actually...he likes it meat and potatoes and nothing inbetween. Even though our sexual styles have always been extremely different, I've always been more than willing to put aside my more spicey tastes, but when you only get to eat a couple of times per year, you get AWFULLY hungry.

I love Els very, very much....and I hope that this will improve things between us. But at this point, I'm feeling personally rather undesirable, and knowing that it takes another woman to get my husband interested enough that he wants to do me at all, is a pretty tough blow. So, hopefully, someone out there will be interested in me...so far, not having much luck on my end of things.

I'll hang out a little to answer any other questions anyone might have. I don't, however want to intrude on Els personal space.

Selene

:mg: <--my real face.

I seriously envy the courage, candor, commitment and communication you both are displaying. I applaud both of you, and wish you both the very, very best. I am in no position to advise either of you--I have no wisdom, no, revelations. I regret that I am unhelpful, both to you and to myself. I wish it were not so. I wish I had a fraction of what you (plural) have.

oh wow...ummmm
so yeah...if my b/f ever ever made me feel so unattractive...I would beat the shit outta him. Els? what your wife says seems to be a bit inconsistant from your posts...and why so prudish? Kama Sutra can be fun!:thumb:

Els and Selene, thanks for sharing these personal thoughts. I have a hard time writing about Mrs RS. But, I'll try...

As Selene mentioned, Mrs RS doesn't think intercourse is necessary, but intimacy is. She just recently realized that, for me, intimacy is really wonderful, but intercourse is needed every so often. The drought was especially pronounced for the 14 years following our second baby.

Now, we are getting "back to basics" and I'm careful to take care of my own needs, which I haven't done in the past. Throughout all this I never considered sex outside the marriage. But, in recent years, I've enjoyed other female companionship within limits. I'd rather not be intimate with any of them.

Thru that lean period, I became resigned to no sex. But, now, in general, I am taking care of my own needs more, and addressing issues inside the marriage. I'm not saying this is better or worse, just that I couldn't handle the ambiguity of an open marriage.

Taking Care of Business
 

Rock Steady said:

As Selene mentioned, Mrs RS doesn't think intercourse is necessary, but intimacy is. She just recently realized that, for me, intimacy is really wonderful, but intercourse is needed every so often. The drought was especially pronounced for the 14 years following our second baby.

My reply:

First, I can't figure out how to quote someone, so forgive me on that.

Rock - I don't think that intercourse is necessary, but most certainly desirable. I'm more than happy to "do it" in pretty much whatever way. However, sometimes that is problematic, and in those times, intimacy without intercourse is better than no intimacy at all. I might actually not feel well one or two nights in a month, but mostly, I'm pretty much ready for it all.

Taking care of myself was an easier thing to do when I was working from home and the kids would go off to school and Els off to work. Now that I've been back at a 8-5 job for two years, I don't have the privacy to take care of much myself, and feel guilty doing so with Els in the house. I think that one person suggested I invest in a vibrator....I have quite a selection and more.

Just making sure that there were no misunderstandings.

Inconsitencies stem from differing points of view. First off...what Mrs. Els doesn't play up too strongly, Gods love her, is my own issues with sexual inadequacy, serious erectile dysfunction from time to time, and the cumulative effect which that has on my rather standard male psyche. When, in a bout of frustration, I made the observation that I seemed to be more voracious about activity with her when we were involved with other people, her interpretation was that I simply did not find her attractive. Nothing could be further from the truth. She's hot, and to my eyes, always has been.

My issues are *my issues*. I do not really understand the reasons that I seem to try harder with her, or am more successful with her, when we are involved with others. I'm sure it is some psychological malfunction off of which a good shrink could base a paper. However, her take that she is not stimulating to me is a gross oversimplification, and does not reflect the way *I* feel.

As my own inadequacies gnawed away at my psyche, they took my libido with them. With no libido, I guess I felt like I had nothing to offer, and the intimacy suffered. I *do* understand how that makes her feel, but every time I attempted to engage in intimate activity with her, I was overwhelmed by my internal issues over my inadequacies, and it simply became less painful to me to avoid it. Less painful to me, more painful to her...and it wasn't fair.

It has never been my intention to mischaracterize anything. What I post here are *my* feelings and my points of view. I'm glad Mrs Els has put in her side. Believe it or not, we *are* a damn fine couple, with a few damn difficult problems in our lives together.

Mrs Elspode wants, paraphrasing her words, "someone to treat her like a girlfriend". I appreciate that, and I also realize that it is easier for someone who doesn't have to share the day to day difficulties of Real Life (tm) to provide that sort of attention. People who only get together for fun and frolic don't develop the same sort of emotional baggage that people who slog it out together day in and day out do. Still, we continue to pursue a more interactive relationship. We are a work in progress, and always shall be so.

Our concept of poly/open marriage/etc has fluctuated throughout our relationship. As I currently understand it, our marriage is open, not only because of my observation about me apparently drawing stimulation from our outside couplings, but because I simply wasn't putting out enough...not physically, not emotionally, not interpersonally. My understanding was that, even had I not perked up recently, it would be Selene's wish to seek those things outside of the marriage. I believe it is her entire right to do so. No one should have to live without physical warmth, intimate interpersonal exchange and emotional stimulation. It does help that neither of us have an inherent moral objection to such activities. I hope to remain perked up, as it were, but if she wants to continue in the open marriage mode, that's okay. If she wants to drop it, that's okay, too. As I've said, I'm not entirely secure about it, but I know that I've not fulfilled my responsibilities adequately in the intimacy area, and so I accept it.

Please recall that I said I have been ambiguous about all of this, and I continue to be so. Having my wife needing outside partners due to my inadequacies...be they physical, emotional, or otherwise...can be just as painful to me as my apparent response to outside partners is to her. We both have wounded self-images.

Here's what I know right now...we're closer, in better communication, more open and honest, and having a lot more sex - with each other - than we have in years. More details as they become salient. :)

I would also like to mention that, as long as Selene is with us here, she is a *very* insightful person (hands down the best Tarot reader I've ever known, and I've known many), and does quite a brisk "business" as counselor, mentor and priestess to our large extended family in the Pagan community here in KC. So...if anyone else has interesting issues along the lines of this topic/bent of a thread, throw them out. She'll surprise you. She surprises me all the time. That's one of the reasons I love her.

Maybe this is the sort of communication you all have been looking for? I think it is amazing that both of you are willing to be so open about these issues - I commend and admire both of you for doing so. I really can't imagine being as "open" as you guys are, but respect you both for your choice in the matter. ANYWAY, Perhaps in your conversations here one or both of you were/are able to realize something about the other that previously escaped you. Els, your posts, advise & input has been very interesting informative and helpful to so very many - I just wish I could somehow impart the same for you. I feel sad that i have no idea of what to say other than to wish you both find in each other that which makes you both happy together.

Early on, we used to hash out fights from the night before via emails. Perhaps this is some new extension of that? :)

I'm sure that us airing all of this in a public forum is tawdry to some, boring to others and intriguing to still others. I don't apologize - we aren't ashamed of who and what we are. We're also not strutting around trying to bring tabloid reality to the masses. We know we're outside of societal norms. I'm pretty sure we like it that way to some extent. Ultimately, we are dealing with an interpersonal issue, but as Selene noted, you guys are my extended 'Net family, an endless source of support, insight and commentary that informs my day to day life, much the same as a flesh and blood, on-site family does.

When UT says that The Cellar is a Community, I believe that, and act accordingly. Just think of us as the weird but lovable freaks across the street, I guess. :)

No, you guys are people and perhaps this is an outlet for both of you to utilize - even use to get that which is lacking perhaps. As they say - "Whatever floats your boat." If this gets your gear going - Great - just an idea?

When I said "take care of my own needs", I didn't mean masturbate. I meant that I was always a pleaser in all aspects of life, a doormat that allowed my needs to be ignored. Now I'm correcting the pendulum between altruism and self preservation. Too much of either one is unhealthy.

Oh, ok. Thanks for straightening that out, Selene...and belated welcome to the Cellar. :D

Dysfunction is a strange animal. Had a stretch where the damn thing wouldn't cooperate the first time with every new lover. Man, was that embarrassing, explaining in advance. But the ones that rose to the challenge, made it rise to the occasion. Also a stretch on anti-depressants was countered with Viagra. But enough about me.

You've gotten the work it out together advice, so lets get down to the nitty gritty. Elspode said he likes kissing....that's intimacy...and a start.


NSFW
Els ~ Buy a trunk full of toys, creams and props. Several times a week, go to town on that pussy until it's owner sings like a high school nympho. I'm talking sonic queefs and a vertical grin. If your dick wants to join in, make it a three way, if not leave him out. Oh, and don't forget her other naughty bits get jealous, so include them in the orgy.

Selene ~ Make him stick to the pre & mutually agreed on, schedule.....no excuses. Don't fake any queefing or singing or grinning...make sure you're satisfied....make him sweat, make him groove.

Now after a month or so, add some reverse play dates in between, where the roles are reversed. Keep adding dates until every night is booked, except maybe Mondays during football season. Hey, ya gotta be reasonable.:lol:

AFTER the evenings festivities, you can analyze and discuss other aspects of life. You'll be surprised how quickly you'll come to agreement on them.

Now if you two can't get and stick with the program, I swear I'm coming out there and supervise. :eyebrow:

Trust me, there's plenty of toys. Is it alright if I work myself up to speed slowly, coach? :D