Dredging - That's a great description of it. Man I gotta say it gets more difficult as they get older. That could be due in part to past failures though. Hmm, contemplating on that one.

One. Bucket. At. A. Time.

Dump the crap on the bank. Repeat. Take periodic breaks. Back to work.

SonofV is how old???

Mine are all in their late teens.

BigV, I believe parenting is just about the hardest job there is. To get a child to become a competent adult amongst all the possible ways of going wrong takes a huge amount of work, ability, patience and a fair bit of luck.
On the bright side, there are a lot of different ways it can go right.
I reckon your lad has a pretty good chance.

I'm a new mom at 25, and I have to admit, I'm terrified. My daughter's ten months old now, and I see new skills and new advances every day. She's figured out how to be rebellious, how to push and test the limits, how to fuss back at me when I scold her, and I really don't know how to respond to that, other than a firm no and angry face to show her such behavior isn't acceptable. I have trouble dealing with discipline on a daily basis now; I can't imagine how she's going to be in ten, twelve years. -shudders- One day at a time, I guess?

yeh, one day at a time. My baby is driving :eek:

The best advice I can offer you is to be consistant. If you discipline her for something once, just always do it. If she figures out that she'll get her own way by pushing the point, you'll be digging yourself a hole so big you'll need to be airlifted out of it.

10 months old is still a baby, and I'm pretty sure that developmentally, a child that age in incapable of "manipulating" a parent. If the baby is fussing, there's probably a reason for it other than rebelling against an authority figure.

At that age, saying "no" and redirecting the baby to something else is probably the best bet. Just try to be consistent. That really is the key. They eventually figure out what the heck you want them to do, but only when you are consistent.

It's not going to be a one time deal of saying "no" and then she'll never do it again. You'll have to do it over and over again. But they learn.

Believe it or not glatt, even newborns figure out very quickly how to get their parents to come running. That's a clinical fact btw, not something I just pulled out of my arse.

As an example, there was a study done at one stage on children of disabled parents. What they found most interesting was that children of deaf parents rarely made any noise during their tantrums. This behaviour developed from the begining.

Cite, please.

Not the study Aliantha was talking about, but a similar one: Hearing babies of deaf parents "babble" with their hands as young as six months, in ways babies of hearing parents don't.

I'm straining not to seem combative on this point. I honestly don't want a fight over it.

So here's my take on it.

A newborn doesn't manipulate the parents. No way. A newborn is a baby and my adult reactions to it are coming from me. I'm not... What I do in response to what I'm hearing seeing smelling sensing from the baby is because of my thoughts and decisions and instincts. The baby's not manipulating me, come on. The baby wants food, comfort, rest. There's not an "agenda" that rises to the level of manipulation. Not before a year, no way.

Certainly as they grow and become more aware of themselves and of others and experience the staggering epiphany that those aren't the same, then it's possible to imagine that they're doing something to get *somebody else* to do something. Until then, their actions are mostly REactions to their own internal states.

I've spent plenty of time around babies and I love them. Even the ones I love can "make me feel manipulated". But honestly, that feeling comes from me, not from the baby. Because I want to soothe her, because I want to make him laugh. Because I need to breathe fewer poop molecules. That's all me. The crying and giggling and arm waving and drooling, that's all just being a baby.

Babies behave in certain ways in order to get their needs met. Nothing more. It is our job as parents to meet those needs.

Manipulation implies fraud, deception or devious behavior for one's own advantage.

A baby's cognitive skills and reasoning abilities are not nearly developed enough for them to be capable of manipulation.

Is a crying child manipulating the parent?

Wanting to be held, loved, and comforted is just as much a 'need' as hunger, discomfort, and being tired.

Having read Desmond Morris' Babywatching, which completely turned the ideas of babies I grew up with on its head, I was completely willing to accept that a baby is only reacting to need when it cries.

But then, I went to dinner at my friend's house. Her ten month old could crawl very well and was pretty mobile. But whenever her mother was out of her sight she would cry. Sit down and cry and hold her arms up until she was picked up. It was definitely learned behaviour.

Now of course she would develop past this stage and want to become more independent as her curiousity in the world increased. I'm not saying she was spoiled or that it was wrong. And I'm sure she'll grow up hugely confident knowing her mother was always there to support her. But it was dependency.

Do British babies cry with a British accent?

I have to disagree with you on this one Sundae Girl, separation anxiety is a very common trait in babies that age. It's the time that they are learning that they are actually separate from the world. In order to feel safe and secure, they want to have that familiar face in their field of view. Perfectly normal.

We need a drum roll, we got a nature vs nurture discussion about to start! :corn:

A definition of manipulate.

ma·nip·u·late /məˈnɪpyəˌleɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muh-nip-yuh-leyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -lat·ed, -lat·ing. 1. to manage or influence skillfully, esp. in an unfair manner: to manipulate people's feelings.
2. to handle, manage, or use, esp. with skill, in some process of treatment or performance: to manipulate a large tractor.
3. to adapt or change (accounts, figures, etc.) to suit one's purpose or advantage.
4. Medicine/Medical. to examine or treat by skillful use of the hands, as in palpation, reduction of dislocations, or changing the position of a fetus.

As you can see, you can choose to view the definition in a negative light if you want, and of course, no one wants to think of babies in a negative light. They're so cute and cuddly and smell nice and they're basically viewed as angelic little creatures who wouldn't harm a fly.

As a parent, I can tell you that I was manipulated by my children when they were babies. What parent can resist for long if their child is crying, even when they've been fed, changed, bathed and fluffed up beyond all niceness...and they still cry. You may even have been cuddling them for hours previously also.

Yes a baby will cry to let you know it wants something. Whether or not it's reasonable is where the manipulation comes into play. Sometimes a baby is simply trying to get more of what it likes, and believe it or not, sometimes we as adults fall for it. This behaviour if indulged often will usually lead to a parent of a two year old complaining that the child just doesn't seem to listen to anything it's told.

I could cite you papers all day on the psychology of children and babies, but it'll be easier for you to do the research yourself if you don't believe me.

When it all comes down to it, whether you like it or not, babies manipulate the adults around them in order to get what they want, just like every other living thing in this planet. Behaviour modification in order to achieve a goal is something learned right for the begining, although it could be argued that some people never learn how to change their behaviour in order to get what they want. ;)

When you allow yourself to be "manipulated" it leads to secure attachment which innoculates against all manner of ick in their lives. Bravo!

my two have grown to adulthood still liking me, talking to me, and still loving me. I'd like to say that's proof, but -- I think they do all that in spite of me!

No, but they do it with a stiff upper lip

And do they keep their pinkie fingers up when they're breastfeeding?

Aliantha, you left out the most common meaning ascribed to "manipulate" that I found in ALL definitions:

To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously

To tamper with or falsify for personal gain

To control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

To change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

To control somebody or something: to control or influence somebody or something in an ingenious or devious way

To falsify something: to change or present something in a way that is false but personally advantageous


Babies can't be spoiled and they don't know how to manipulate.

From the The Science of Parenting

Aliantha, I read and reread your post, and I sincerely think we just don't completely agree on what constitutes "manipulation". I'm not willing to get into such an argument.

We agree on what babies do, what kids do. We agree on what parents do. We agree on examples of of cause and effect with babies and parents. That's good.

I just don't agree that I'm being manipulated, or that you're being manipulated for that matter. Not by a baby. By my own guilty conscience, by the voice of my parents in my head, by my spouse, sure. Not by the baby, though. Identical circumstances, identical responses, different reactions. I'm not a puppet or a pawn or a victim, I'm just a long suffering parent, just like you.

I agree with you--they're devious sometimes, the rascals. And the very definition of selfish--unquestionably. And I often feel like a sucker for their charms. I *am* a pushover for them. Dang, they wear me out. But they're just being babies, not little Machiavellis.

Stormieweather, I just wanted to applaud your remark. Bravo.

Awwwww...

Ali, its just a word.

Treasenuak, don't let anybody here get you down. It's been a long time since most of them had actual babies, and they've forgotten the timelines.

The American Academy of Pediatrics agree: you can't spoil a "baby" under the age of six months. But the first year is a time of huge development, and a ten-month-old (the age of Treasenuak's baby) is very, very different from a six-month-old (the age of my youngest right now.)

At ten months old, my son could walk, say a couple of words, hit, bite, and scream angrily when he was told "no." I assure you, that "baby" could try to manipulate us, and required a certain amount of age-appropriate discipline.

Try and picture the difference between that and a six-month-old "baby," who is likely still eating solely from a bottle and cannot even crawl.

I got my definition from dictionary.com. I simply cut and pasted the first list of definitions. There were 7 others after, but I felt the first on the list should be fine.

Of course you can attribute manipulative behaviour to devious behaviour is you like. It makes the word sound 'bad'. That's fine.

Let's use a different phrase then.

Babies are completely capable of 'modifying' their behaviour in order to get what they want whether it is a need or not.

You can argue your personal beliefs on how to raise a child as much as you like and quite frankly, I more or less agree with you however, my argument is that children and babies do 'modify' their behaviour in order to get their own way.

If you don't think you've ever been manipulated by a child or babys' behaviour, that's ok. Maybe you're a super parent, but I wouldn't believe you if you said you hadn't. Human beings are born with an inherant selfishness and they'll do just about anything to get their own way, particularly as a baby when they are the centre of their own universe. Maybe it sounds terrible, but it's the truth.

I never suggested babies are evil or that they are being anything but babies. It's just that babies are little humans and they respond to every single little outside trigger. They learn very quickly and most of us are blissfully unaware that someone much smaller and cuter has more control than we do.

Have a look at a day in the life of any parent who's with a newborn baby. Ask them who the household revolves around. Think about how you react every time you hear a baby cry. Most of us automatically believe the baby must need something, but that's not always the case. Sometimes they just want something, and as parents, we all us different techniques to modify these behaviours in turn when we realize that the baby is fine. We start to show the baby ways to amuze itself. We turn on an overhead mobile or some music to calm the child. I'm saying that babies do what they do, and from the moment they're born, they start testing boundaries and figuring out where they fit in the world. They're not evil or devious at all. They're just finding out how smart their parents are.

Yesterday SonofV brightened my day with this unsolicited announcement, delivered with a touch of surprise (or perhaps that was me projecting...):

"Nobody in my class watched the debate last night!"

I must say I was proud of his pique. The night before we'd all watched the debate together, and he was hanging in there with us (Tink and me), listening to what they said, and generally copying our reactions. We all went for a walk after the program and I used the quiet time to ask him some questions about the debate. I can't remember the exact dialog, but he answered them all handily.

I asked him what the debate was all about, and he said they were trying to persuade people. What do you mean, persuade? You know, like if I asked you to loan me $50, and I said because I needed it that would be persuading. What people? The people in the audience and everybody in the country. I was astounded at this perceptive answer. How are they trying to persuade the people? (paraphrasing here, sorry) I'm going to be a good president, and the other guy is a poopyhead. Basically he understood that persuading can be effective as a pull and as a push.

I did have to check his enthusiasm when he answered one of my first questions "What did you think of McCain?" "He's a dick." ::eek: Ahh... no. He's not a dick, he wants the best for the country, but I don't agree with his choices or with his methods. SonofV shocked me with his, ahem, candor. I tried to get him back up out of the mud. I think there is no permanent damage.

of course. up your nostril, usually.

Thank you, EVERYONE, for your feedback about my lil girl. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that simple CRYING when told no, is her way of saying, "BUT I WANT TO", whereas screaming at me and striking me (different from trying to push away from me to get to what she wants) is a bit more of the being defiant thing. The suggestions about consistency were very helpful; I'll keep that in mind. Right now the major thing we're working on is consistent bedtimes and not playing with electrical cords (no matter how well I think i have them put up out of the way, she still finds ways to pull them and grab them!) So yeah; every day's something new. Thanks again for all the input!

I felt I was doing something right when my young 2 year old...

1) puts herself to bed on night 3 of being in her 'big-girl bed' without prompting...she just wandered off to her room and shut the door behind her

2) waits in line behind another little monkey after a worker at the local Meijer superstore read a book to kids on a Halloween event day ...just to MAKE SURE the girl heard her say 'thank you' for reading her the book.

Are 2 year olds supposed to do this stuff?!? Seriously, her birthday was on 10-4, she's just only 2. She creeps me out some days.

Sounds like you have a lovely little girl on your hands there SquidGirl. Keep up the good parenting I say. :)

She's a Libra - duh! We are naturally smart early. :0)

Dad helped pull out the pup's tooth #2 last night. She only got $2 this time. ;)

I agree. Bravo to Griff.

My little 'uns have always deftly twisted me around their little fingers and darn it, they're turning out pretty good.

I'm pretty much agreeing to that, Griff. I think I probably had my parents wrapped around my finger and I am very close to them. I can't remember them being too disciplinarian. My mom seemed more my friend than my mom but as I get older I realize she just had a different approach with parenting rather than your 'typical' parent. I also didn't really have kids to grow up with and hung out with my parents and their friends a lot. Vathana notices Miette gets super whiny around me sometimes and I think he recently realized it's not a bad thing. She just has a different comfort with me than everyone else. I'm the same way. I can be uncensored around V. I can be whiny around him :P

I'd just written this long post for here and i lost it. What a dick. Anyway, Aden got in trouble at school the other day for 'man handling' another student who had killed a slug. He's written a statement for his teacher whom I have a meeting with this afternoon after school.

This is the statement:

As an advocate of animal rights I believe all animals should have a right to live, not die how we choose they should die. I love animals even the small types of animals like a slug or an insect. They don't have a voice so we should speak for them. We could have killed the slug then and there but we all decided we should let it go. It's horrible to kill a living creature...it's just like killing a human being only its smaller and it can’t speak for itself. I want to be a vet so I can help animals like that if they can be helped. When I see someone trying to kill something like a plover or its babies I get so angry and don’t think before I act.
Would you like it if you were an animal, with no way out, getting something thrown at you or wacked with a stick? I sure wouldn't. One time when I was in Samoa we found a puppy with maggots in it and it just made me cry and as soon as we could we put it out of its misery...That is one time you can kill a living creature, when it has no chance of survival.
I realize now that violence was not the best way of dealing with this situation, even though I was really upset. I don’t think it’s fair that Kodi and Caleb should get away with killing a living creature even if it was ‘just a slug’. I think it would be better for them if they learned how important all our animals are and why we should protect them instead of killing them.
I’m sorry if I harmed them. I know now that my actions made me just as bad as them and I am ashamed of losing my temper. I intend to work on this from now on and I’m going to do some research on how to peacefully get my message across in future using words and actions rather than my strength to overpower others.

Awww....and it was all over a slug...how cute. How old is Aden?

Absolutely charming. Give him a hug for me, willya? :)

He'd get along great with my daughter, who has a hizzy if someone should smash a spider or something. All bugs in the house must be carefully transported back outdoors.

He's 12. :) Starting high school next year, so not a baby anymore, but still my baby...specially when he does things like that.

Juni...i think there's quite a lot of kids that're developing a conscience much younger than we might have. It gives me hope for the future.

Hey, both 12 years old - too bad so far apart! Pen pals? :)

lol - they may text each other or email, but pen pals? Didn't that die back when I was young - a looooong time ago.

What is this "pen" you speak of? Does it have bluetooth?

I think they could definitely become 'pen pals' or whatever the modern definition is of that these days. Ask your daughter if she's interested and if so, I'll PM you Aden's email addy. :)

Like most boys he's not the greatest at correspondance, but he does keep in touch with his cousin on the other side of the country via email.

When my middle daughter was 7, I accidentally ran over a snail with her sister's stroller. We were on the way to school, and in a hurry, She was VERY upset, told me I had murdered the snail. I said nope, an accident, so only snailslaughter.

What a nasty mum. lol

Y'see I think this is great, but not because it shows what a nice, compassionate individual he is, but more because he's got the whole excuse/sob-story/get-out-of-jail-free thing pegged. :D

He has to learn how to weasel out of things. Its what sets mankind apart from the animals. Except weasels.

Yes... weasels are the expert at weaseling. Perhaps he should take a few lessons just to polish off his technique?

Believe it or not, he was sincere with what he wrote. His teacher even noted that she felt he wasn't just saying what they wanted to hear in order to get out of further punishment/disciplinary action.

I guess it's hard for some people to believe that other people's kids have a conscience though. I'm just glad my sons both appear to have one.

It's all about sincerity.




Learn to fake that and you've got it made. :D

-- George Burns

Well the interesting thing is he hasn't complained about his detentions. He's taken them on the chin.

I admire him for that.

Ali I don't think people really believe that - but it's just such a perfect answer, it's fun to assume it had an ulterior motive.

I have to say that the only time in my life I had detention I was let off by the Headmaster. Why? Well I hadn't done my homework. For the second or third week running. I was set "in school" detention (most common at my school as children travelled home all over the county on special buses). I had to give up 40 minutes of my lunch hour, and a desk was set for me right outside the staff room.

Then the Head came past and couldn't believe I was in detention. He knew me from the school play, the carol concert and the athletics team. He asked if I had finished the work I had been set (I had) and then set me free. So what it taught me was the age old proverb - it's not what you've done, it's who likes me. Or something like that.

The sad thing was, it was English Lit, which I loved. And Ms Knox, who everyone else loved. I just didn't like how she tried to make English accessible! and fun! I didn't want fun, I wanted serious books and books about books and poetry, and books about poetry, and poetry about books. Not bloody Adrian Mole. And yet at the end of the year she was so very nice to me when I left her class. Ah well.

Well it'd be a shame if my son happened to read that people would prefer to think the worst when he's trying to do his best.

Also, it's not so much that the comment was made. It's the person who decided it'd be funny to do so in the first place. It's pretty hard for me to believe that it came from the 'goodness of her heart' and not just her taking an opportunity to be nasty once again.

Such is life. Some things never change.

I do believe he cares for animals, of all sorts, because my daughter does too.The same year asthe snailslaughter incident, she was nearly late for school one day, rescuing earthworms that had washed into the street during a rainstorm.

It is easy to be compassionate about puppies and kittens. Caring about slugs and worms is a much higher degree of compassion, IMHO.

what about headlice :D

There's an ethical dilemma for you. I am a (non-strict) vegetarian, but I kill mosquitoes. I figure self defence counts.

In highschool, one lunchtime a bunch of us were sitting on the lawn, and we noticed a spider and started looking at it. one bratty lad leaped into the circle and stomped on it.
Cue a ten-person beatdown. Not enough to do him actual injury, but plenty enough to express strong social disapproval for this act. It was so crowded it was all I could do to land a few punches on his back.

My Aunt & Uncle came over to visit from Australia about 11 years ago, bringing my young cousin. It coincided with my nephew's baptism, which was nice.

The party was held at my sister's MIL's house, and as things were quite crowded a group of us were stood in the front garden, eating cardboard sandwiches and drinking warm white wine.

Mum spotted a ladybird on a rose bush, and pointed it out to Hannah, expecting her to be delighted, and say, "Ladybird, ladybird fly away home..." and make a wish or some such girly nonsense. No. Mum obviously sent a mixed message about what action was expected.
"Where?" she cried eagerly, "I'll kill it! I'll kill it!" Obviously worried that someone else was going to horn in on her stomping rights.

Of course at the time I wrote it off as the difference between Australian and British wildlife, in that ours rarely kills. I assumed all Australian children had the instinctive reaction to squish first and ask questions later. Now I find out it is not a national trait, so I can only assume she's a sociopath. Which will be interesting when she visits next year!