If the biggest car company has a massive safety issue, I wouldn't think that any of the others would need to run any sales.

As an aside, what I've heard about the Prius brake problems sounds a lot like something I had in my old '98 Chevy Cavilier.

@ Sam: I lol'd, heartily.

I think they should serve up some compensation for being incompetant

The people they kill don't. :(

All these problems were created during or ignored by Watanabe management. So we immediately ask a simple question. Does he have a driver's license? A question too often never asked because many auto executives are that destructive.

We know Toyoda took power. And then announced Toyota has major and serious problems. Announced long before these (and probably other problems) were known.

So who is Watanabe? Educated as an economist. Spent his entire carrer working in Toyota management - often in strategic planning. Did not work where the work gets done. As best I can tell, is not a car guy. Sounds so much like Rick Wagoner and Nardelli of Chrysler.

Long before Toyota's problems were known, Toyoda (in early 2009) said major problems exist. Watanabe's reign created the first Toyota not on Consumer Report recommended list - the full size Tundra. An entire production line (in San Antonio?) was manufactured with defective crankshafts (that snap). About $4000 of labor and parts to repair. That early 2007 'discovery' may have been one of the earliest indications that Toyota had serious management problems directly traceable to top management. A man who never worked where the work gets done.

how much of this is blown up hype? does the government's interest in GM and Chrysler have any influence on their treatment of Toyota?

On the contrary, it's the press that's been hyping this. They've also bitched the government hasn't hyped enough.

My gut tells me it's about 85% hype.

I'm with glatt.

Considering the number of Toyotas on the road, compared to the number that have experienced a problem, minus the number that just pushed the wrong pedal, the odds are pretty small of this happening to you.

BUT, having raised a couple of generations that don't know how to drive, haven't got a clue as to how a car actually works, and expect everything to be automatic so they don't have to make a decision, any problem becomes a big deal.

Do away with automatic transmissions, power steering, power brakes, and half the population couldn't get to the fucking supermarket. :rolleyes:

:eek: How old ARE you?!?!

The battery went dead in my key and it wouldn't unlock my car door when I hit the button. I actually panicked for a sec...

I'm 65... a generation is 20 years or less. A couple of generations would be like, born after 1970. :eyebrow:

I'm with Bruce. Keep me standard transmission, 4WD where you get out and lock in the hubs, windows that you roll down yourself, and ignition keys that don't talk to you. All the fancy shit now adays is just that much more to go wrong. And my fav song is still "Sugar Magnolia" - jumps like a Willy's in 4 WD!

I never really thought of generations moving along that quickly. Im thinking your generations procreated while on the youngish side.

I've had to lock my doors by pushing the lock on the door for so long that now that I have a remote, I forget to use it. I'm trying to make it a habit to lock it remotely, so that I can't accidentally lock my keys inside. I have a spare that unlocks the door, but can't use it to turn on the car (something about a chip in the real key). Problem is, that it is in my purse, so if I lock my purse, keys, and cell in my car, I'm totally screwed. Which I have done, just with my less technologically advanced car. I didn't know I had my mom's cell phone number memorized, so it was a damn good surprise when I dialed the right number using someone else's phone. I still had to wait 4hrs before she could get me my spare key though.

take a bit of wire, and put a loop through the key.....then put it behind your license plate and hook it through one of the extra holes back there.

or get this

That 'lock the key inside' was a common problem with all GM products. Even the original Honda's made that problem not possible. If you locked the driver's door, then shut it, the door would unlock.

Unfortunately that solution no longer exists with Hondas. Now you can accidently lock yourself out of a Honda.


One problem I have seen with remotes. The remote in a pocket gets pressed. The locked car then remains unlocked. A problem made worse by the range of that remote.

You can also get an extra valet key, cut away the plastic, and put it in your wallet. Without the head, it's hard to turn, and without the chip it won't start the car, but it's good for when your key's locked in the car.

Manual steering and manual brakes just take more muscle, not more smarts.

But the whole Z family can drive a stick (Mrs. Z and I prefer manual transmission). Z-let 2 has not taken her driving test yet, but Z-let 1 took her test in the Honda (manual transmission) and the guy who gave her the drivers test was amazed.

Toyota pulling ads from ABC as punishment for their aggressive news coverage


Bad idea, Toy.

It takes more ATTENTION.

@Bruce -

I see...it was a mental block on my part.

I'm childless, but if I had had one at 20, and then they had one when they turned 20, their child would be getting their drivers license right about now. Its hard to think of my age in those terms....

Im getting old...:eek:

I prefer how a Honda drives (steers) without engine assist. The power steering adds almost near zero to cars with better designed steering systems. Earlier Accords had zero power steering when the car moved. The larger (full sized) Accords have near zero steering assist. So little difference that when the engine is off, steering difference slight.

Power steering is necessary for under 5 MPH manuevering - ie parallel parking - at least in better designed vehicles.

Power assisted brakes? Without it, then locking up the brakes would be diffcult on all full sized cars.

Do you still have brakes if the engine powers off? Everyone should know that. If a critically important check valve fails, then you lose all brakes. And the only time you would learn about that failure is by testing. Go to any open parking lot. Turn off the engine. You should be able to fully apply brakes at least three times - and still have power assist. You will not if that valve has always been defective. If you do not do that test, then you would never know about the failure until it was too late.

Helpful, anyway. The car I learned to drive on had no power steering at any speed.

I am not sure this is as big a deal as people and the news are making it out to be. Obviously the public is responding as I don't think anyone is buying a Toyota right now. An NPR report stated the other day that over 10 years there have been 19 confirmed deaths from this issue with the acceleration and or brakes. You have a greater risk of being eaten by a bear or struck by lightening. I will be looking for a chance to take my truck down and get a brand new one when they start offering deals to get people to buy again. I would definately buy a Toyota again. Over 95% of them are still on the road after 10 years. Yea, they are still a good auto/truck company.

Last year my roommates car had no power steering and I considered it an upper body workout to get out of tight spots in the snow.

But driving without power steering really makes you more aware of what you are doing. You cannot mindlessly take curves and are forced to even be aware of correcting yourself to drive in a straight line.

Honda adds 437,000 cars to global air bag recall
 

New technology is to replace mechanical controls with electronics. Now understand the problem. Every digital logic circuit is logic One when above a certain voltage. And logic Zero when below. Between those two levels is an undefined reason (because everything in the world is ternary). So that noise does not cause confusion, any signal in 'no man's land' means logic stays at its old value. Then noise does not cause failure.

Well, sort of. All noise is statistical. Therefore all noise will eventually cross that 'no man's land' threshold. We calculate the probability. So that your PC is reliable, that noise threshold might be achieved once every (maybe) 1000 or 10,000 years. No problem for you. A major problem for Toyota with so many millions of cars.

Described earlier is one method to avert disaster - see watchdog timer discussed earlier. And a problem. There really is no way to test for proper implementation of that watchdog timer. Quality (as taught by W E Deming) says quality must occur at the design level. That means top management must implement, enforce, and understand how that can be accomplished OR if it is being accomplished.

Mechanical designers did not have to be so careful. Now that brakes, accelerator pedals, windows, power steering, etc are all partially or fully electronically controlled, then software interfacing with hardware means everything Deming taught is even more important. Means that understanding even that above statistical fact is essential to reliable design.

How does one test for a failure that happen almost never - such as the throttle pedal? That is what every automaker has confronted. Every automaker has suffered the same problems in other variations before Toyota. But this time the problem was bigger news - probably because one event was so newsworthy.

Ford's problem with Firestone (now Bridgestone - they changed the name so that you would forget how many they killed) was so trivial and obvious compared to Toyota's. Ford eventually discovered Firestone knew they were killing people, lied about fixing the tires, and then denied the problem existed. In that case the problem and its solution was trivial simple.

Well, Toyota's problem has a similar story line. Toyota knew the problem (and some others) existed. But top management stayed in denial mode. We are now seeing new Toyota management trying to deal with a problem that existed maybe in 2003. And have only been at trying to eliminate it (and other problems such as the Prius braking software) for a year.

Trying to identify the transistor among millions that might be too susceptible to statistical noise failure when it only happens to a few of millions of vehicles. And the failure leaves no electrical history of the failure. Toyota has a major challenge. If I understand the problem from details in so many stories, I believe the accelerator pedal will not be (or may be only one minor) reason for failure. Appreciate why bad management means a statistically rare problem can make the solution almost impossible to find. And why missions (such as Apollo) did not have such problems because management understood what the engineers were saying. Therefore could avert problems before death resulted (ie Apollo 13).

Engineering and management techniques once good enough for mechanical brakes or Bridgestone tires is no longer sufficient in today's world of Deming quality, six Sigma, millions of transistors in each car (every car currently has about 50 motors), and world wide news.

Excellent explanation, tw. I knew you had it in ya. :thumbsup:

http://www.toyota.com/recall/

did they ever figure out what went wrong?

Nope - they are probably too worried about the Corolla's power steering issues and another possible recall.
Link

everybody who has ever had a problem with a Toyota raise your hand.

I'll wait.

No problems here. We are on our third in this family. Granted my dau's first one did get wrecked with 6k on it and now she has 2010, but still. My truck is three years old, not a single issue. Not even a rattle.

*hand raised*

...but it was kinda my fault. I let the tank go to nearly empty too many times and clogged the fuel filter inside it, which caused a problem somehow and it wouldn't drive. Had to get a whole new something-or-other which cost $500 or so. This was way back in the 80's when I was driving the '76 Corona. Back then, the Jap cars didnt get a lot of respect, though.

Pico, I think the statute of limitation's run out on that one. :lol:

If I were going to buy a car right now, I would give serious consideration to a Toyota. Some pretty good deals out there, I bet.

Take it one step farther. As great and stable companies, Toyota and Honda have long been poor investments. They have been too stable. At best, you would only meet the S&P or Dow Jones averages.

View Toyota stock sales during the recall notices. The spike is massive. Paniced investors were selling.

So when is the best time to buy? You must determine at what point all the bad news is out. For example, the accelerator pedal may cost $70 per vehicles to replace. That is a $billion write off that has not yet appeared on spread sheets (because spread sheets report events long after it really happens).

Dealers may be desperate to make the sale. But I doubt it. Right now, they are fully employed by Toyota just upgrading existing new and already sold models. And the supply was cut off on some models as it took tiime to manufacturer new pedals.

But investment possibliities are good. Too many invest on silly emotion rather than appreciate the real value of that company. Maybe 10% or 20% are so pathetically foolish as to react to the news. That is a buying opportunity.

However the buying opportunity is so obvious as to not be as profitable as it might be. Those are the judgements that only you can put numbers to.

Written by The Economist (10 Dec 2009) about five months after Akio Toyoda took control of Toyota.

meanwhile, in the batcave.......

Gov't still hearing complaints about fixed Toyotas
 

I should think the dealer would flatbed it in, so they could check it before it changed, unless he drove home before calling them?

AFAIK Volkswagen still idiot-proofs their driver's doors with that feature. The lock button will disengage if the driver uses it and then shuts the door. You have to leave by some other door to lock the keys in the car. AAA has a card-key gizmo for getting back into your car; it's like a thick credit card, you keep it in your wallet. At need, pull it out, flex the plastic key out of the plane of the card, get in your car.

Link
Now its Honda's turn . . .
Can they do anything else to make GM's look more attractive?

glatt predicted this would keep going and affect other carmakers.

Speaking as a firmware engineer, I have been waiting for this sort of computer-initiated failure for a looooooong time. It's not mechanical; it's the almost mystical capability for computers, sensors & computer code to interact in a non-reproducible, non-deterministic fashion. We call it 'emergent behavior'.

When your computer blue-screens, you can reboot it. (Ask lj.) When your car insists that nothing is wrong and refuses to be rebooted, while doing 90mph down the interstate... well then, you're screwed.


Then add the fact that mathematical modeling cannot possibly encompass everything that might happen to your particular car -- crosstalk on cables, manufacturing irregularities, cosmic rays fer chrissakes! Battery levels, failing alternators. Squirrel nests.

I think I better buy a bicycle. :tinfoil:

"Can't be reproduced" is what they always say to me the first time something fucks up in my jeep. I don't think they try very hard.

It would be helpful if the media, you know, told people how to stop a car that was having this happen. The media is happy to get all breathless saying how terrible these incidents are, but I haven't heard anyone say to just switch it into neutral, pull over, stop, and turn it off.

I can understand parking lot accidents where there isn't time to react before hitting anything, but some dude on the highway who can't stop his car is incompetent.

Glatt -- they have tried this. The car 'believes' it is not in drive, and won't respond to the shifter. Since everything is computer controlled (steering, gas, brake, transmission), there is no direct way for the operator to force the car to stop. :worried:

If, however, the problem is mechanical (stuck gas pedal or floor mat jammed) this will work just fine.

If that's the case, then why does Toyota's recall fix this by mechanically adjusting the gas pedal?

Because they're in denial, and can't afford to track down all the code problems. They're hoping people will go away mollified and won't sue. It's called the placebo effect.

Are you basing what you are saying on the ABC/David Gilbert test where they rigged a car to suddenly accelerate by doing very specific things to the wiring? If so, I thought that had been generally debunked.

Or are you talking about something else?

I didn't realize transmissions in cars were controlled by wire these days, but I'm out of my element there, driving an older model manual transmission car.

Are these computers different than those in other makes? Do they all have their own brand of computer or is this more of a systemic problem?

In the Prius, the transmission is electronic, not mechanical.

Glatt, I was referring to the San Diego story from last week, though that's shaping up to be uncreditable.

Your 'debunking' article also has this conclusion:
Toyota stands to lose billions if they don't control the spin of this story.

Yeah, Toyota is certainly biased. No argument here. But so is the media. They are desperate for profits, and nothing sells papers or tv advertising like a good scandal.

Why is this not happening in other countries?

Every automaker has its own computers. GM used a stripped down variation of the Motorola - forgot if it was the PowerPC or 68000. Many of the early problems because GM used a measuring standard that was different from Motorola and other semiconductor industry benchmarks.

Ford used a customized design from Intel. One of the computers I once tried to design with was the Intel 80196 - a variation of the computer also found in Fords then.

It always amazed me. Japanese automakers used computers about as powerful as the computer inside every keyboard. GM used a more powerful computer equivalent to that in Apple computers. So Japanese engines therefore had superior control and performance. Go figure.

One feature finally appearing in cars is the CAN bus - pioneered by Intel, if I remember, in the 1980s. It finally begin appearing because Japanese automakers tend to use stifled American innovations ten and twenty years later.