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-   -   The Gathering Storm in Syria (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=29112)

Clodfobble 08-30-2013 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw
DejaVue Nam. We have met the enemy and he is us.

At some point, you're going to have to get with the times and start saying "DejaVue Iraq."

infinite monkey 08-30-2013 12:06 PM

The UK is the new France.

*snicker*

Undertoad 08-30-2013 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 874661)
We know Clinton in 1998 defanged Saddam. We just did not know it then.

But we will surely know it's been successful this time, because (actual reason has been left as an exercise for the reader).

tw 08-30-2013 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 874689)
At some point, you're going to have to get with the times and start saying "DejaVue Iraq."

DejaVue Mission Accomplished.

BigV 08-30-2013 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinite monkey (Post 874690)
The UK is the new France.

*snicker*

Heard on radio

Henceforth, English muffins shall be known as "Freedom Muffins".

sexobon 08-31-2013 05:24 AM

Obama might attack Syria just to piss off Putin for not giving Snowden back.

Sundae 08-31-2013 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinite monkey (Post 874690)
The UK is the new France.
*snicker*

Yeahyeahyeah. I'll snicker your arse lady.

No, no idea what I mean either. Visions of Marianne Faithful, ewwww.
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV (Post 874794)
Heard on radio
Henceforth, English muffins shall be known as "Freedom Muffins".

You're on report. And your radio. And your little dog too.

Tell you what made me seriously bray with laughter the other day.
War-hungry talking head on Sky News. The worry is that the UK has removed itself from the world stage. France is now America's closest ally.
And this (somehow) paves the way for America to ally itself to more powerful nations. Example given, the burgeoning power of China. Yeah, good luck with that one. Communist state who alongside Russia currently has its foot on the UN's neck regarding any action against Syria.

That is not my opinion on world politics.
It's just me being annoyed with British media. They do talk up some crap.

piercehawkeye45 08-31-2013 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexobon (Post 874809)
Obama might attack Syria just to piss off Putin for not giving Snowden back.

That is clearly the reason.

sexobon 08-31-2013 02:01 PM

The sad thing is that resorting to violence is unnecessary. Bashar al-Assad is a doctor and Barack Obama is a lawyer. Obama should just bring a class action malpractice suit against al-Assad, for inappropriately dispensing harmful chemicals, on behalf of the Syrian people. Shades of Michael Jackson.

piercehawkeye45 08-31-2013 02:19 PM

I would also like to see Obama attack Assad through non-military means - a class action malpractice suit would be hilarious - but the likely limited attack on Assad will accomplish two goals for Obama:

1) Attacking Assad for purely humanitarian reasons is one thing (something I disagree with) but once WMDs get involved then it is viewed differently. I do not feel as strongly but there are many policy makers that strongly believe any WMD use should be punished. Obama set the red line at chemical weapons (WMD) because of that - plus other reasons IMO - and now he must act on it. I'm not comfortable with our retaliation but allowing WMDs to be used is a potential slippery slope that many policy makers do not want to go down.

2) I think this attack will have as much realpolitik intentions as humanitarian. Right now our two biggest enemies in the Middle East, Al-Qaeda Islamist and Iran, are heavily invested in this civil war. While it is not in our (U.S.) interests to get involved right now, it is in our interests to make sure these two groups keep pouring their attention and money into the civil war instead of other activities. Lately, Assad has been gaining the upper advantage and a limited strike may balance the playing field. Also, on a side note, peace or balkanization is only possible if both sides feel they will not win alright so it also in our humanitarian interests to keep a level playing field.

piercehawkeye45 08-31-2013 02:22 PM

While I do not believe Syria or Iran is dumb enough to retaliate against a US/French attack, this article shows the military buildup around Syria right now.

Quote:

While the United States is ready to strike a handful of targets on the ground in Syria, any international conflict there will take place on a much larger stage. The entire region is full of a witches' brew of military hardware from more than half a dozen nations with interests in the Syrian conflict.

The United States and France are prepared to strike the government of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad from the Mediterranean Sea and a ring of air bases surrounding Syria. Meanwhile, three of America's most powerful military allies -- Britain, Turkey, and Israel -- are publicly staying on the sidelines, albeit with their militaries primed to defend against any Syrian counterattack. Then there are Assad's friends, Russia and Iran, both of which have military personnel on the ground in Syria.

Here's a look at the mix of military forces facing Assad -- and each other -- in and around the Levant.

...
http://killerapps.foreignpolicy.com/...yrias_doorstep

sexobon 08-31-2013 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45 (Post 874855)
... the likely limited attack on Assad will accomplish two goals for Obama ...

But, but it dashes my plans to set up shops on the borders and sell gas masks to tourists!

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45 (Post 874855)
... I do not feel as strongly but there are many policy makers that strongly believe any WMD use should be punished. ...

As long as it's understood that it's just punishment and not deterrence. We took out Saddam; but, that didn't deter Bashar. It would be interesting to see what those policy makers would do if Russia or Israel used WMD on someone other than us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45 (Post 874855)
... Right now our two biggest enemies in the Middle East, Al-Qaeda Islamist and Iran, are heavily invested in this civil war. While it is not in our (U.S.) interests to get involved right now, it is in our interests to make sure these two groups keep pouring their attention and money into the civil war instead of other activities. Lately, Assad has been gaining the upper advantage and a limited strike may balance the playing field. ...

Ah, so we're just using the Syrian people as patsies by maintaining an even keel and WMD is a red herring. Well, why doesn't the Prez should just say so and let us all sleep better at night? [rhetorical]

piercehawkeye45 08-31-2013 05:17 PM

If you want to interpret it that way...

Lamplighter 09-01-2013 12:22 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Obama's bright red line for Syria...

tw 09-01-2013 06:45 PM

Well first extremists were screaming that Obama was letting hundreds of thousands be massacred in Syria. Then he decides to attack what Assad should not have and illegally used. Then those extremists complained that Obama was getting us into another Mission Accomplished.

So Obama said to extremists, "OK, you vote on it." What does a dumb dog do once he has caught the car? How many dogs thought it out?

Big Sarge 09-02-2013 11:46 AM

It all boils down to Sunni vs Shia or you could say AQ vs Iran. I say we stay out of this and let them use all of the WMDs they want. It just means fewer extremists for us to deal with later.

Lamplighter 09-04-2013 09:49 AM

The White House should give McCain the 2013 "Frog and the Mouse" award.

NBC News

9/4/13
McCain opposes Senate resolution authorizing Syria strikes
Quote:

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., on Wednesday told NBC News
that he doesn't support Senate language authorizing President Obama's
desired military intervention in Syria because it is too limited.
This from one day ago...

Roll Call

9/2/13
Voting Against Obama on Syria Would Be ‘Catastrophic,’ McCain Warns
Quote:

Two senior Republican senators emerged from a meeting
with President Barack Obama on Monday warning that a vote against
striking Syria would be disastrous.

When is Obama going to understand that you can't change the smell of a skunk.

glatt 09-04-2013 09:58 AM

McCain never saw a war he didn't like.

Washington Post had a poll this morning saying about 60% of Americans don't support going to war against Assad. Interestingly, 43% of Republicans and 42% of Democrats support a war. If Obama was a Republican, I bet it would be 65% or Republicans and 20% of Democrats support.

Spexxvet 09-04-2013 02:46 PM

Meh, if the world truly believes that using chemicals for mass murder is bad, then the world should handle it. We can't do everything. Oh, and we'll have to raise taxes to pay for it.

Big Sarge 09-04-2013 04:43 PM

It is time for the Arab League to step up. They have offered to finance our "attack", but why endanger our forces when this is clearly a sectarian situation. The Arab League has the forces to do the mission themselves.

Griff 09-04-2013 07:30 PM

1 Attachment(s)
It isn't as colorful as fiddling while Rome burns but...

glatt 09-04-2013 07:34 PM

Who dat?

Griff 09-04-2013 07:58 PM

The Honorable Senator from Arizona shows us how important he finds military interventions. These are not serious people we've elected.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...c-c0b0d9d4fe0a

Lamplighter 09-05-2013 07:56 PM

McCain did his thing in changing the wording of the Resolution in the Senate Committee...

Although it passed in Committee by a 10-7 vote, only McCain and 2 other Republicans voted in favor.

The Guardian
Dan Roberts and Spencer Ackerman
9/4/13

Syria strikes: Senate committee approves resolution in boost for Obama
Quote:

Senate foreign relations committee votes 10-7 in favour,
paving way for full vote on Senate floor early next week.<snip>

The influential committee voted by 10 votes to seven in favour
of granting the formal military authorisation requested by Barack Obama,
paving the way for a full vote on the floor of the Senate early next week
in response to alleged chemical weapons use in Syria.

But the committee also voted to accept controversial amendments
proposed by hawkish Republican senator John McCain that would explicitly make it
a policy of the US to seek to "change the momentum of the battlefield"
in ways that would force Assad to negotiate his resignation.


"It is the policy of the United States to change the momentum on the battlefield
in Syria so as to create favourable conditions for a negotiated settlement
that ends the conflict and leads to a democratic government in Syria,"
said the second of two amendments proposed by McCain and Democrat Chris Coons.

"A comprehensive US strategy in Syria should aim, as part of a
co-ordinated international effort, to degrade the capabilities of the Assad regime
to use weapons of mass destruction while upgrading the lethal and non-lethal
military capabilities of vetted elements of Syrian opposition forces,
including the Free Syrian Army," it added.
<snip>
The extended US mission objective may make it harder to secure
sufficient Democrat support in the House though, where a majority of Republicans
are also thought to be opposed.

Essentially, McCain's changes to the resolution will become a poison pill

Griff 09-06-2013 05:41 AM

Interesting poll results. Seems legit.

Lamplighter 09-06-2013 08:37 AM

As I read McCain's Section 5 of the Senate Resolution passed in Committee, the thought
occurred to me that if it is passed that way by the full Congress, Obama should veto it.

By doing so, he could either send it back to Congress to narrow the focus,
or go ahead and act as he intended (narrowly) as Commander in Chief.

It might send a message to McCain, but I doubt McCain could understand it.

Undertoad 09-06-2013 09:55 AM

Reach however hard as you like to believe that Obama is on your side.

Lamplighter 09-14-2013 09:40 AM

Shades of Saddam Hussein...
Will Bashar al-Assad give an accounting that will satisfy the U.S.,
or will he too eventually be found hiding in a hole somewhere.

Washington Post
9/14/13

US, Russia reach agreement on seizure of Syrian chemical weapons arsenal
Quote:

GENEVA - The United States and Russia agreed Saturday on an outline
for the identification and seizure of Syrian chemical weapons and said Syria
must turn over an accounting of its arsenal within a week.
<snip>
For example, the two delegations never came to terms on exactly how many sites
the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad uses to produce, mix, and store chemical weapons,
nor on whether all of those sites are in areas that remain under regime control,
as the U.S. maintains, and Russia denies

Adak 09-19-2013 09:42 PM

News today is that the Al-Qaeda and Al-Misra hardline Islamic brigades, have run the less radical Rebel brigades, out of a couple towns, between Damascus and the border with Turkey.

They now have complete control of this part of the Rebel controlled area. They have made it plain after murdering a few non hardline brigade leaders, that they are the strongest faction in the Rebel fight, and won't tolerate those who don't follow their lead.



Since they have withdrawn to these towns, it's believed the other Rebels will be especially hard pressed by Assad's regime, in the coming weeks and months.

Griff 09-20-2013 05:29 AM

I read an interesting article from an unreliable source about the Saudis spending $70 Million on congresscritters to get American intervention. I keep forgetting who pulled the 9/11 job.

Adak 09-21-2013 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff (Post 876548)
I read an interesting article from an unreliable source about the Saudis spending $70 Million on congresscritters to get American intervention. I keep forgetting who pulled the 9/11 job.

Your source is correct. Saudi's work tirelessly to cut the influence of Iran, for two reasons:

1) Iran is shia - and so is Syria (largely). Saudi's are shiite, and to say that they don't get along, is the biggest understatement, you could ever make.

Most of the attacks in Iraq today, are shia vs. shiite.

2) Iran's military build up over the last several decades, has been alarming to every nation in the middle east. Now more than ever, since the potential that Iran will build nuclear weapons.

The last thing anyone except Iran wants in the volatile middle east, is a nuclear arms race. What Iran wants is never perfectly clear, but a greater military strength is clearly one major goal.

Adak 09-21-2013 11:53 PM

Correction to the above post ^^^ : Substitute Sunni, in the above post, in place of Shiite.

Shiite is another term for the Shia branch of Islam, and they are very common in Iran, Syria, and Lebanon, and a majority in Iraq, as well.

Sunni's are the most common branch of Islam, in the Saudi Kingdom, Pakistan, and etc.

tw 09-23-2013 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff (Post 876548)
I keep forgetting who pulled the 9/11 job.

Humans did it. Which proves all Americans were complicit. Should that be too general, then also too general is to associate any extremist Sunni or Shiite with the actions of any other non-atheist.

The conflicts are directly traceable to extremists. The enemy of all good and decent people - moderates. All extremsits - atheists or non-atheists - are the source of or give comfort to this problem. They use extremist propaganda and hearsay, rather than adult intelligence, to justify their actions and beliefs. They (and not any one religion) are the problem.

Lamplighter 10-06-2013 11:50 AM

I did not know they were working under a deadline...

Washington Post
10/5/13

UN official says chemical weapons inspectors begin destroying Syrian stockpile, machinery
Quote:

<snip>Their first goal in the undertaking is to scrap the
Assad regime’s capacity to manufacture chemical weapons by Nov. 1.

“Today is the first day of the phase of destruction and disabling.
Verification will also continue,” the official, speaking on
condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.
“The plan was that two types categories of materials would be destroyed:
one is equipment for making (weapons) — filling and mixing equipment,
some of it mobile, and some it static. The other is actual munitions.”

Developed during the 1980s and 1990s, Syria’s chemical arsenal is believed
to contain mustard gas and the nerve agents sarin, VX and tabun.

Inspectors can use any means to destroy equipment, including crude techniques
like taking sledgehammers to control panels or driving tanks over empty vats.
But the second phase — destroying battle-ready weapons, is more difficult,
time-consuming and expensive. It can be done by incinerating materials
in sealed furnaces at ultra-high temperatures, or by transforming precursor chemicals
or diluting them with water.<snip>

Adak 10-07-2013 04:21 AM

We're reporting that all is going well, atm. Props to Assad on this matter, at least.

He sure had a shitload of chemical weapons! Holy Moly!

Griff 12-14-2013 11:39 AM

Apparently our buddies in Syria lost their warehoused materials to a more Islamic outfit. We're thinking of solving this problem by backing them (the nutters) instead.


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