The Cellar - May 13, 2008: Bull Terrior v's Porcupine

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- - May 13, 2008: Bull Terrior v's Porcupine (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=17232)

Thanks for that. I just read the report. Fascinating stuff. I found the analysis of differing behaviour patterns really interesting.

Isn't one of the contributing factors for the seriousness of those breeds' bites their massive jaws and tendency to hold on no matter what?

Like alligators.

I was in a discussion with someone re: this picture before. Apparently, the general consensus is that the pic is photoshopped with many more needles than were actually there. They just photoshopped them again over and over and over. I dunno....

I don't see any evidence of alteration.

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Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 453982)

I don't see any evidence of alteration.

Me neither. An altercation maybe, but no alteration.

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Originally Posted by Cloud (Post 453937)

Isn't one of the contributing factors for the seriousness of those breeds' bites their massive jaws and tendency to hold on no matter what?

Like alligators.

emphasis mine. that's a myth.

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Originally Posted by lookout123 (Post 454026)

emphasis mine. that's a myth.

I have to disagree there, Lookout.

We have had the *problem* (I dont agree with this) breeds all my life (hunting family) and once they are in *that* mode (kill or be killed, hunt, etc)...you are hard done to distract them or restrain them.

Even my adorable, Clyde (Bull Mastiff, Great Dane) will hold on till the death. He is the most obedient and loyal dog, an absolute dream with the kids and friends...but throw another male dog into the mix and he will fight until exhaustion or death.

He was bought up well socialised, but was attacked by a large old Rotti when he was 3 years old and now he fights first and asks questions later.

It takes a good while for me to get him off another dog, and the problem is, at 65kgs...he does a lot of damage. He is muzzled when we walk, desexed and I keep him out of that situation as much as possible, but I have no problems trusting him with the kids.
If they are tormenting him, he comes and bangs on the door or lets me know that he wants to get away from them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennTheMermaid (Post 453980)

Snopes and urban legends say its legit. I do my homework before I post :)

Doing some Google work on the "lock jaw" thing I ran across this site. Seems to be well informed.

http://www.thebullyhouse.net/pitbull...faqsmyths.html

On the jaw thing:

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Do APBT's really have 1600 psi biting pressure and locking jaws? [Information gleaned from the ADBA phamplet titled "Discover the American Pit Bull Terrier]

No, they do not have either. Dr. I Lehr Brisbin of the University of Georgia states, "To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparision to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of 'pounds per square inch' can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data."
Futhermore, Dr. Brisbin states, "The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of 'locking mechanism' unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier."

But on the other hand a very interesting note I read:

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What exactly is "gameness"?

Gameness in APBT's is a canine virtue that is most akin to the human virtue of unflagging courage. It is a determination to master any situation and never back down out of fear. It was developed in pit bulls by many generations of selective breeding. It is what allows a pit bull to keep fighting non-stop for two or more hours, in spite of broken bones, torn muscles, blood loss, dehydration, and exhaustion. But it is also valued by APBT owners who would never think of fighting their dogs. It is manifested in the can-do attitude of pit bulls toward any type of challenge, whether agility competitions, climbing up trees, or protecting their family against an armed attacker, etc. (Yes, check out Richard Stratton's books for photos of pit bulls actually climbing up the trunk of a big tree in order to nestle in the branches 15 feet off the ground.)

And finally here is what they said on how to stop a pit bull from fighting.

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THE FIGHT:

There comes a time in the life of every dog, be it a small terrier or the powerful APBT, when it will get into some sort of a scrap. Those of you who frequent dog shows for the APBT will no doubt eventually be witness to dogs getting loose and starting a fight. So, what happens when they are serious? Well, each dog will bite the other, take hold and start to shake its head punishingly. It is so serious that in most cases nothing you do will cause the dog/bitch to give up that precious hold! Nothing! Choking, shocking, etc...It just doesn't matter!

BREAKING/PARTING STICK:

Known by both names. It is a very hard piece of wood or some other material suitable for the purpose of spreading a dog's jaws apart. It is usually about 5 to 8 inches in length, wedge shaped and contoured to prevent injury to the dog's lips. Its width is about 1 to 2 inches. The electric breaking stick is much more effective and works faster without any permanent dammage to the dogs.

THE TECHNIQUE:

Okay, imagine two dogs engaged in serious combat and each one has a very good hold on the other. Now, I'm assuming there are two of you and you are both right handed.

With The Electric Break Stick, you just neet to touch any part of the dog with it and hold it until the dog lets go.

STEP 1) Walk over to the dogs and as simultaneous as possible step over, straddle and then lock your legs around the dog's hips just in front of the hind quarters. Make sure your legs are locked securely around the dog.

STEP 2) With your free/left hand grab a handful of skin from the back/nap of the neck and pull upward as if you are a mother canine picking up a young puppy. A strong grip on the skin is needed here. We are accomplishing two things, one is to neutralize the mobility of the dog by locking our legs around it's hips and the other is to neutralize mobility of the front torso by way of a skin hold on the back of the dog's neck.

Before I continue with STEP 3, let's review what has now happened. Not wanting to let go, the dogs are still holding on to each other and each handler has his dog in a tight leg squeeze just in front of the stifle/hind quarters while at the same time holding the dogs front section by way of skin on the back of the dog's neck.

Sidebar: When looking in your dog's mouth notice a gap where the teeth do not meet. This 'pre molar' area is why the breaking stick is so effective.

STEP 3) Each handler inserts his breaking stick in the pre molar area where the gap is found. Sometimes you need to work the stick just a bit if your dog is biting real hard. The stick should be inserted from 1/2 to 1 1/2 inches into the dog's mouth.

STEP 4) Now, as if you're twisting the throttle of a motor cycle, so too you must twist the breaking stick. This is the action that spreads the dog's jaws far enough apart so that you can now pull back with the other hand. Viola, the dog is off! I like to also use my legs for those big dogs when pulling them off.

It is that simple.

Now, I have a few comments about the mechanics of a dog fight. The first is that ALL dogs use their hind quarters for both leverage and mobility and it is the most important place to start when stopping a fight. Once you remove the back end from the equation you've stopped 75% of a fight. It's amazing, most of the time you'll see the dogs quit shaking and moving as soon as they feel their hind quarters locked by your legs. They almost freeze! Once their movement is under control it's super easy to grab the neck and insert the stick.

Holding the neck with your free hand helps prevent a dog from biting you while stopping the fight. I've broken lots of accidental fights and all those times I have never been bitten by an APBT. But, I have been biten by other breeds because of the way they fight.

My final comment is that with a little practice you can stop a serious dog fight in about 5 seconds, on the average. It's so easy you can't believe it, straddle/grab/break and you're finished! No unnecessary damage due to pulling, beating or whatever else one might employ!

So, the next time you're playing with your dog, open the mouth and you'll see the GAP I mentioned. Then, when you get your 'stick', just play tug-o-war or have the dog grab something and try your breaking stick then.

EDIT:

And as I continue the article, this part makes me want to get a pit bull now.

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These breeders (Talking about dog fight trainers) bred for a type that was extremely easy-going and docile around people and would NEVER think of biting a friendly hand, even amid the fury of a fight. A well-bred pit bull is so reliable in this respect that even if he is badly hurt in an automobile accident and is in extreme pain, he won't snap at his owner who tries to pick him up--unlike most dogs in that situation.

....any APBT that showed the least sign of aggression toward people was culled as unsuitable for breeding. Whether true or not, it was an article of faith among old-time breeders that a human-aggressive dog simply could not be dead game. In any case, such a dog would have been unsuitable for fighting purposes: no one would volunteer to be its handler or to referee the match. As a result of this careful breeding history, the APBT is an extremely easy-going, human-loving dog.

This isn't just a personal, impressionistic perspective of mine. The American Canine Temperament Testing Association is an organization that titles dogs for passing its temperament test. The test consists of putting the dog into a series of unexpected situations, some involving strangers. The dog fails the test if it shows any signs of unprovoked aggression or panic around people. Of all dogs that take the test, 77% on average pass. But among pit bulls who take the test, 95% on average pass--one of the highest passing rates of all breeds.

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Originally Posted by Aliantha (Post 453077)

are they aggressive?

From the same logic that since people here can relate personal experiences with well-trained and gentle dogs of fighting breeds they aren't aggressive, it follows that Porcy's aren't either. There was one in the area that was semi-tame when I was a kid and I've petted it a few times without harm.

But then, I'm not a snake...

Pit Bulls have amazing temperaments amongst people (usually), but they can be seriously dangerous to any dogs they get into a fight with. Speaking as the owner of a dog who would not survive an encounter with a pit bull, that worries me somewhat.

There's an American Pit Bull lives near me (despite their being a banned breed). It's adorable. I got talking to its owner, asked what breed it was because the colouring really struck me and the shape of its head was beautiful. She told me "Oh it's an American Pit Bull....don't worry though, it wouldn't ever bite. Well, not a person...he'd make a mess of any dog he got hold of."

I did think as she was telling me this.....that's not right smart given its illegality. I could have been the sort of person who would phone the police or the RSPCA and let them know about this 'dangrerous dog'. The owner's a local alcoholic (nice enough lady, her and her alcy husband make their living collecting and selling junk) and I cannot see her having a licence to keep the dog.....nor was the dog muzzled.

I didn't inform the police. I did, however, warn my mum so that she wouldn't let Dante go say hello to this dog if they passed by.

The last time my dog got into a scrap with another dog (other than Dante) nether dog was hurt.....lot of rearing up and jaw snapping, bits of fur flying and over in a minute. Lot of sound and fury and no damage at the end, beyond a couple of little scratches and puncture marks that showed up later on. If Pilau got into a scrap with that American Pit Bull, I doubt he'd survive. If he did, it would no doubt be a time of extensive vet treatment.

I remember walking my westie pup when I was 12 years old. A rottweiler had got away from its owner. It ran straight at us, grabbed Dudley by the fur on his upper back and shook him like a plastic toy...threw him aside and then grabbed him again. Dudley was screaming. There was blood everywhere. I, rather stupidly, was hitting and kicking the rottweiler and trying to get dudley away. The owner eventually rolled up, shouting the dogs name and was able to get the dog to drop Dudley.

Ten years later, whilst walking her 12 month old Bichon Frise, mum had the exact same experience. Again a rottweiler. More shaking like a toy, more small-dog screaming. More heavy vet bills, more distress.

Most dogs don't fight to hurt. When they scrap they usually make a lot of noise and do only superficial damage. Some dogs, when they fight, fight for real.

[eta] I will admit to some slight unease at not warning the relevant authorities about the Pit Bull. I didn't, nor would I, as the dog would most likely be confiscated and destroyed. In the case of the American Pit Bull, the law has become too reactionary and a blunt instrument indeed. If by contacting the relevant authorities, I were to trigger a visit from the police and a warning to keep the dog muzzled outdoors, I would most likely do it. Just because I recognise the potential dangers involved in keeping certain dog breeds, doesn't mean I approve of the way the law is tackling that danger.

It is always a little surprising to find which threads get "legs," especially when one seems to have been the spark. I was purposely being dense when I responded that pit bulls were aggressive, when I knew that Aliantha meant porcupines. I also think I knew that the prickly dog was not really a pit bull, but the more venerable bull terrier.
In my area, famous for marijuana cultivation, pit bulls are common and commonly assholes, as are their owners.
I think the phenomenon is sort of the result of the perfect storm of canine breedability, capability and training. The dickwad down the street who would intimidate all the neighbors is no more likely to set his Corgy on you, than he is to carry a .22 short derringer instead of a Glock 9.
His pit bulls, instead, have been bred to have overly strong jaws and been trained to attack and hold on, both of which, in my experience, they are happy to do.

Back to the original post

Is it just me or has this been around for a lot longer than 3 years? I'm sure this was doing the rounds when I was at Uni and I left there 8 years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coign (Post 454367)

Doing some Google work on the "lock jaw" thing I ran across this site. Seems to be well informed.

http://www.thebullyhouse.net/pitbull...faqsmyths.html

On the jaw thing:

But on the other hand a very interesting note I read:

And finally here is what they said on how to stop a pit bull from fighting.

EDIT:

And as I continue the article, this part makes me want to get a pit bull now.

Seriously, accepting this research is like accepting an article from the KKK about how they're friends with the local multicultural community.

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Originally Posted by Aliantha (Post 454634)

Seriously, accepting this research is like accepting an article from the KKK about how they're friends with the local multicultural community.

There not? LIES! LIES I TELL YOU!! My friends in white are just good ol' boys fighting for America.

Seriously though, there are plenty of other links and sites that discuss how APBT have been painted as huge scary monsters. I have personally known three pits and two were the APBT and they were the friendliest dogs.

It is all about socializing your dog and keeping him well trained. I have seen more yippy dogs with Napeopleon complex who's mommies don't train their dog in the slightiest to respond to voice commands and keep them unleashed cause more issues then any big dog.

The large dog is on a leash and obediently following his owner when this stupid little drop-kick dog attacks him. That sorry excuse for a dog should be eaten.

I live in a huge dog friendly valley and it upsets me when I see that 90% of the toy variety of dogs are spoiled little bitches that give big dogs a bad name because the little ones are not trained.

Sorry about that, OK rant off.

I saw a normally well mannered Pit bull get into a fight with a standard Poodle - neither dog won in the end. The Pit Bull wrecked that poodle and both had to be put down. I had seen this dog a 100 times before this incident and he was always well behaved and well mannered. Still don't know why he snapped that one day.