When did I say ownership was a European invention? I said the state was a European invention.

I don't see how that gives anyone the right to kick people that have been living there since preshistoric times. It happened, just like it happened to almost every culture in human history, but I don't buy the justification at all.


As I said in my last post, the self-determination part I don't care about it is that area would not have worked out. The more I look into it the more I find that this plan was destined to fail but there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. The Jews weren't going to go anywhere else and the Arabs didn't want to live in a Jewish homeland.

Also, what gives the Jews anymore right to land than lets say the Aboriginals in Australia or the natives in the United States, or the Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, and Iran, Kosovo, Ossetians, and the millions of other ethnic groups that don't have a homeland? As I said, I disagree with the justifications behind it.

Studies have shown that the DNA of the Palestinians represent people that have lived in that area since Prehistoric times. Other cultures have invaded and mixed in with the gene pool, but most can trace ancestors back to prehistoric ancestors that lived in the same area.

Define didn't own the land.

The Arab states or the local Arabs? Three of the five Arab states that attacked Israel in 1948 weren't even around for five years.

Years gained independence from British
Syria - 1946
Jordan - 1946
Lebanon - 1943
Egypt - 1922
Iraq - 1932

Even then, they didn't really see the Jews as a threat because they denied the early two-state solution.

If you are talking about the local Arabs, you are dead wrong. Tensions started right when the talk of a Jewish state began.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

Sounds like the potential for Israel to have it's own little Iraq.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/...ast/assess.php

Right here.
Which is why I said; You don't accept the history of man since prehistoric times... Hmm.

The Aboriginals still live in Australia, the Indians still live in the US and the Kurds still can and do live in Turkey. Most of the others still live in the same areas unless they chose to migrate or were forcibly removed by people like Stalin. But even most of those people can now go back to the same area if they choose.
Maybe you don't approve, maybe you don't accept, or maybe you don't understand, but whichever, that's your problem because I don't think there's one nation in the whole world that gives a shit.
OWN : noun, pronoun : that which belongs to oneself
There are two ways you can own the land;
1- Legal title under the rule of law
2- Have possession and the power to retain it
Most of the world uses #2

States, because individuals don't have armies so they don't count. See #2 above.
The fact remains that the people living in and around Palestine have always been ruled by others... that owned the land.

If you want pictures, here's pictures.

via Bruce's gallery,

When a photographer is present, the Hamas missile launchers are set up in a remote location. Notice there's no shot of them firing the ones in that location.

The ones actually launched are launched from neighborhoods.

When they are staging the drill for the photographer, the out of the way park is nice and won't bother anyone. But when they actually launch them, making smoke trails that can be followed back, then they want the cover of the neighborhood.

Oh, I did notice the Israelis made some humongous holes in the ground.

They learned well from their brothern in Iraq. They set up many launchers on the back of trucks in crowded neighborhoods and near schools, knowing full well that the electronic track back would send rounds on the way in less than one minute. Then they could appeal to the American public with cries of how we were targeting civilians.

That one WAS the police station.

Ironic as it may sound - to minimize loss of life, massive deaths of equal numbers on both sides are necessary. That is the only way that moderates from both sides can act as moderates again. That is the only way that wacko extremists can be disenfranchised. That is the only apparent way that this conflict can end up back at the negotiation table.

Once upon a time, there were no more suicide bombings, stealing land, etc. Once upon a time, the Oslo Accords were working. But as the Norwegian foreign minister predicted, George Jr would destroy the Oslo Accords in a world where wacko extremist view everyone as only good or evil. ie the Axis of Evil myth.

Another Oslo Accord is impossible until death rates are very high on both sides - until the number of dead make everyone realize how wacko those extremists really are.

BS. I think the vast majority see the reality of the situation - comparing death tolls from one side versus the other is meaningless and childish.

No doubt.

Funny how wackos suddenly lose power when death rates increase massively. But then that required one to think without posting meaningless and childish replies. Not that I expect you to think. This post was from tw. Therefore classicman must attack it. Typical of meaningless and childish replies.

Many a war suddenly had no purpose or glory once the death rates became impossible to accept. Numbers such as 10% are often discussed.

Cite.

Oh really??