The Cellar - Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Blocked

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Mine is when neo-cortical activity begins. At that point sentience is initially possible, marking the difference between man and animal, the point at which conscious thought is possible.

I figure 10 years old is the absolute latest you can abort a child.

"Clean you room or we're going to the doctor!"

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Week 5:
The developing embryo has three layers. In the top layer (ectoderm), the neural tube will form which will further develop into the nervous system (brain, spinal cord, skin and hair). In the middle layer (mesoderm), the heart and circulatory system, bones, muscles, kidneys and reproductive organs will develop - eventually. At this stage, however, the heart and primitive circulatory system will rapidly form. In fact, the circulatory system is the first organ system to function. In the inner layer (endoderm), a simple tube will develop into the intestines, liver, pancreas and bladder.

(This is when pregnancy tests can start picking up the hormone and give a positive reading.)

Week 8:
An ultrasound done at this stage should show a fluttering heartbeat. Elbows begin to form in the arms and fingers start to develop. The leg buds begin to show feet with tiny notches for the toes. The face continues to change as the ears, eyes and the tip of the nose appear. The intestines start to form in the umbilical cord. Teeth develop under the gums.

Week 11:
I'm a Fetus!
Starting with this week, the baby is now called a fetus. The most critical part of the baby's development is over. This is a period of rapid growth, and the baby is about an inch or so in length at the beginning of the week and will be about 2 inches by the end of the week. The baby's head is about half its length. The eyelids will fuse shut, and the irises will begin to develop. Sometime during this week or the next week, blood will begin to circulate between the baby and uterus and the placenta starts to function.

Week 12:
By this point, nearly all of the organs and structures of the fetus are formed. They will continue to grow and develop until delivery. Fingers and toes have separated and hair and nails begin to grow. The genitals begin to take on their gender characteristics. Amniotic fluid begins to accumulate as the baby's kidneys begin to produce and excrete urine. The muscles in the intestinal walls begin to practice peristalsis - contractions within the intestines that digest food.

(source: pregnancyguideonline.com)

After 12 weeks (the first trimester) it is medically a "fetus" and a little person in there. Before that time, it's classified as an embryo, basically, a clump of cells.

Most states (check yours) specify that 12 weeks is the latest abortion is allowed except for medical reasons. It's also much more expensive and difficult on the mother's body, because instead of vaccuuming the baby out (D&C), they have to hack it up first due to the bones getting more dense.

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from religioustolerance.org
First trimester surgical, and medically induced abortions: Most abortions are elective procedures performed sometime during the first two months of pregnancy when the fetus is one inch or less long. Over 90% of abortions are done during the first trimester (i.e. the first three months). They total about 1.2 million/year in the US -- a number that is gradually decreasing. In almost all cases, there is no medical reason why the pregnancy needs to be terminated. The abortion is chosen simply because the woman does not want to have a baby.

edit: changed zygote to embryo.

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Originally posted by Pete

But what difference does 12 weeks make in the morality of the situation?

Absolutely none. Laws don't have to be moral.

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religioustolerance.org
The media, religious leaders, and others often emphasize uncompromising differences between pro-life and pro-choice beliefs. But, in reality, the two sides agree on almost everything: An ovum is alive and contains human DNA. Thus, it is a form of human life.
An ovum is not a human person.
Similarly a spermatozoa is a form of life.
A spermatozoa is not a human person.
At or shortly after conception, a fertilized ovum is a form of human life. It is alive and has human DNA.
A pre-embryo is a form of human life.
An embryo is a form of human life.
A fetus is a form of human life.
A newborn baby is a form of human life.
A newborn baby is a human person.
Somewhere during the nine months between the ovum-spermatozoa stage and the newborn baby, human personhood begins.
After human personhood has begun, an abortion should not be allowed, except under very unusual circumstances, such as to save the life of the woman, or perhaps to avoid serious long-term injury to the woman.

The only real differences between pro-lifers and pro-choicers involves two questions: "When does human personhood begin?" Most pro-lifers believe it happens at conception.
Most pro-choicers say that it happens later in pregnancy, or perhaps at birth.

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Unfortunately, there is no consensus of when human personhood starts.

Science can tell us, with increasing detail, the processes that start with a sperm and ovum and end up with a newborn baby. But it cannot tell us:

Does the fetus have a soul?
When do the products of conception become a person?
Does a zygote have a full set of human rights?
Is an ovum and sperm a person?
Is abortion murder?

These are questions with philosophical, religious and political aspects. Science cannot contribute a great deal towards resolving them. And because these questions have a religious component, there will always be a wide variety of beliefs among persons from different faith groups.

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3 months the fetus begins to "look like" a baby. The recent development of high resolution 3-D ultrasound equipment provides incredibly detailed pictures of the fetus at this stage. These photographs are convincing many people that the fetus is a human person at this stage because it looks like one -- even though none of its higher brain functions are operating. 9
4 months when the fetus' face has developed to the point where one can tell one fetus from another.
About 24 weeks, when the fetus becomes viable, (i.e. able to live outside the womb). When medical ethicist Bonnie Steinbock was interviewed by Newsweek and asked the question "So when does life begin?," she answered: "If we’re talking about life in the biological sense, eggs are alive, sperm are alive. Cancer tumors are alive. For me, what matters is this: When does it have the moral status of a human being? When does it have some kind of awareness of its surroundings? When it can feel pain, for example, because that’s one of the most brute kinds of awareness there could be. And that happens, interestingly enough, just around the time of viability. It certainly doesn’t happen with an embryo." 8

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No consensus and no compromise appears possible:

To a person who believes that a human person is created at conception, abortion is a form of murder. Some pro-life individuals and organizations have suggested that an abortion clinic is the ethical equivalent to a Nazi death camp. They have suggested that embryo research is the equivalent of the fabrication of lampshades made from human skin in those same death camps. Some pro-lifers suggest that delaying the start of personhood beyond conception is analogous to the thought processes of slave owners. Afro-American slaves were once recognized as forms of human life, but not regarded as full persons. Similarly, during the Shoah -- the Nazi Holocaust -- Jews were considered as sub-human.
To a person who believes that human personhood begins at the start of the second trimester or later, a first trimester abortion (i.e. during the three months following conception) is a regrettable option, but often the most ethical choice for a pregnant woman who does not wish to continue pregnancy for emotional, mental, physical, or economic reasons.

The medical profession appears to follow the viability criteria. Medical societies enforce regulations prohibiting essentially all abortions after (typically) 20 or 21 weeks of pregnancy. The US Supreme Court also seems to have used fetal viability as a significant event; it allows states relative freedom to prohibit abortions after viability for a wide range of reasons.

Public opinion surveys give conflicting results, depending upon the exact questions asked. It would appear that a significant majority of adults in the US and Canada agree that a woman should have free access to a safe abortion in at least the first trimester.

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Originally posted by Carbonated_Brains
I figure 10 years old is the absolute latest you can abort a child.

Hee hee - Thanks for a little levity Carb.

Quote:

Originally posted by OnyxCougar

Absolutely none. Laws don't have to be moral.

I agree. And maybe they shouldn't need to be - the problem is that many people assume if something is legal, then it's moral. They're letting the state be their conscience. uh oh - I'm starting to sound like Griff.

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Originally posted by Pete

I agree. And maybe they shouldn't need to be - the problem is that many people assume if something is legal, then it's moral. They're letting the state be their conscience. uh oh - I'm starting to sound like Griff.

And it goes the other way, too...that if something is what they consider moral, that it should be law....

Sidhe

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Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Don't you see the huge difference there?

Not really.

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Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
Babies are innocent. They've done nothing to deserve death. They're being killed because they're "inconvenient;" convicted murderers did something to get where they are, which is destroy life. They deserve to die for what they've done.

That's why many of the pro-dp people are anti-abortion. At least that's why I am.

Actually, I was thinking of the whole "life is sacred argument" that many in your camp use. Interesting point you make, though we see that "baby" differently.

The "life is sacred" argument has nothing to do with either my DP or abortion opinions.

My DP opinion is strictly based on

1. the protection of society from predators
2. the money wasted in taking care of predators for life

and my abortion stance is based on

1. the fact that I don't think babies should be killed for convenience

The only things they have in common are:

1. taking responsibility for one's actions

and

2. both types of killers know the consequences of the actions that got them where they are, ie, sex can lead to pregnancy, committing murder can lead to conviction and execution

Therefore, IMO, they have no excuse when the consequences happen. I don't agree with letting them off the hook because of environment or upbringing. The bottom line is CHOICE. One makes the choice to commit cold-blooded murder, and the other makes the choice to have sex.

I feel the same way about people who smoke. I smoke myself, and apparantly, unlike the smokers who sue the tobacco companies, I'm literate. I know the dangers, and I choose to do it anyway. If I get lung cancer, I have no right to whine and blame the tobacco companies. They didn't force me to smoke. I chose to, therefore, I should have to take responsibility for my actions and the possible consequences.

I'm no harder on anyone else than I am on myself. TS can attest to that. Matter of fact, I often hold others to a lower standard.

As far as abortion is concerned, if it is not medically necessary, then there are other options: birth control is the most obvious, and adoption. In the case of the DP, one knows ahead of time the consequences of the act. They took the chance and they got caught. I have no sympathy.

Sidhe

Quote:

Originally posted by Carbonated_Brains
I figure 10 years old is the absolute latest you can abort a child.

"Clean you room or we're going to the doctor!"

So I guess that means we can't take Radar to the doctor....

Ok, just kidding...I had to say it, though. I held it in for as long as I could, but it was driving me crazy.

(Jaques)I am ashamed. (/Jaques)

Sidhe

PS
Jaques= Finding Nemo

Quote:

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
My cutoff date for "personhood" is when brain waves are detected. It's then that the fetus is becoming aware and can feel stimuli and such.

Sidhe

Psssssst! Sid! I don't believe any brain waves have ever been detected coming from Radar. Maybe we can take him to the doctor after all! :D

Obligatory Cliche for Any Abortion Debate:

"Why is it that the same person who will go ballistic at the thought of crushing the egg of a bald eagle will fight to the death for a "woman's right to choose"?