First of all our capitalistic ideals are not second rate. Nobody has better capitalistic ideals than we do. Secondly, I haven't pushed anybody out of the way to get foriegn oil since the '73 embargo. Don't confuse the government/industry with individual Americans. Come back when you've got a wife and 6 kids, a mortgage and bills up to your ears. Then tell us how much you're worrying and what you're doing to straighten out the system. What do you live forever? Why? So you can tell other people they should be doing what you think is best for them?Isn't that what we pay them for?. No, you wake up.
If you don't like the was this country operates you've got 2 choices. Either find someplace else to live or change it...I honestly suggest the latter.
On the other hand, if you just want to tell me what to think, how to feel and how to live......well, let's just say, Homey don't play dat. ;)

Damn, P.M.

Cool..... now that you can but your own beer w/out a fake ID you can tell all the rest of us idiots how to run the country.

If I were you I'd move to one of those countries over ther somewhere that has already adapted the perfect government that you have seemed to have masterminded.

IMO, there's only one thing worse than a commy bastard.... & thats a commy bastard living in MY country and pissing and moaning 24/7. Sheesh.....

But he's been "mad for fucking years"! :rolleyes:

[quote=xoxoxoBruce]First of all our capitalistic ideals are not second rate. Nobody has better capitalistic ideals than we do.

Maybe a comma between Primal's "capitalistic" and "ideals" should be added. But insisting that we have first rate "capitalistic ideals" isn't exactly a compliment. Our current form of capitalism, laissez-faire, wreaks a lot of damage over time...we've been witnessing it since the late 70's...the sudden need to change from a manufacturing base to a service base simply because industry had no restrictions on taking our manufacturing overseas for cheaper overhead and higher dividends to stockholders. Careers, families, towns, small businesses, schools, neighborhoods, regions, were devastated by this. And now we have a huge income gap and a privileged class, a large number of medically uninsured, personal debt to income ratios that are frightening, no job security, unprecedented levels of emotional and physical dysfunction, etc...it's awful. Our government hasn't been doing the job they're being paid to do. Instead they're trying to cure our (their) ills by becoming Big Brother.

The problem I think Primal was noting is that instead of fighting back, many Americans have become complacent and apathetic. A good point to make is that it's really difficult to fight back...the vortex that this economic system has us sucked into is powerful and disempowering. There's no time to fight, and little energy. (Exactly what you said about 'having a mortgage, six kids...', etc.) The economics we live by have us hogtied, and industry and finance know that. But something's got to break soon...Americans typically will only tolerate so much.

I don't doubt it one bit. I'm in the middle of this book, Nickel and Dimed and it has really opened my eyes as to why people are trapped in low wage jobs, not to mention why no one has time or energy to stand up for anything, anymore. I have no doubt the system is this way by design, either.

[quote=jonesieQ] Duh.
He may not like capitalistic ideals but can't acuse them of being second rate ones. ;)

Never ceases to amaze me how many people WILL puff up over our "capitalistic ideals"...from Rand to Trump to Cheney...don't know you yet Bruce...and it's tough to tell these days between sarcasm and heartfelt belief. Now, ain't that a sad statement?

Sounds like the definition of selfish...or ignorant...or both. After the third kid you should know why they're happening.

Now you're totally wrong here. The government is doing exactly what they are being paid to do....by those who pay the most.....to benefit those that pay the most. You surely don't think that piddling few thousand dollars you kick in counts, do you?
Perhaps you mean they aren't doing the job they were elected to do.
I despise people that discount opinions based on age, BUT...at 21, I don't think Primal has been rode hard and put up wet enough times to appreciate how hard life can be. I wanted to change the whole world at one time, then I wanted to just change the country. Now I'm happy to just keep my shit together.
I admire Primal's ideals and wish him all the luck in the world, changing the system, but nothing good will come of criticizing me and you.

If you recall, at 21 people like you look a lot like part of The System, Bruce. ;-)

where in that breif paragraph did i imply that you were spposed to think the way i do?
i really dont have the time to dignify your ignorance as it might take me all day.

let me guess, youre also republican?

and if our capitilistic ideasl arent second rate then how come our country is in such deep debt to other countries that its frightening?

i may only be 21 but i am well versed in politics among other things. just because im not antiquated does not mean i do not care to uphold some form of political awareness.
and older people like you are part of what is wrong with this country, please leave your 1950's leave it to beaver mentality at the door, kthnx.
youre happy as long as uncle sam is patting you on the head, keeping your wallet fat, and shoving food down your 9 kids throat. the real american dream.
there is no american dream, which is why its sad that people like you bought it hook line and sinker.
meanwhile the majority of this country is destitute, without any form of healthcare because they cant afford health insurance, on the streets, starving etc.
pull your head out of your ass and look around. every principal this country was founded on was to further the rich man.

isnt capitalism great?

if you knew anything about good music you might know that its from the beginning of breathe by pink floyd.
edit: and im lacking a certain appendige that would qualify me as a "he"

you get an a for being totally presumptuous. ive probably faced more trial in my 21 years than you have in your entire life time.

Mellow out, y'all. PM, I'm relatively new here, but I do know that nobody here got where they are now easily. Er, except maybe me.

I've been mad for fuckin' years, absolutely years, been over the edge for yoinks, been workin me buns off for bands...

The song, however, is Speak To Me. Up until the music starts, it's Speak To Me, THEN it becomes Breathe.

Give yourself an A for being presumptuous. And give yourself an A+ at kissing your own ass.

And they'd be right, I am part of the system. What they don't understand is if it weren't for people like me, it would be much, much worse.
People like me, who have "raged against the machine", and been slapped down so many damned times we've learned to pick out fights more carefully.
Where do you think, "Think globally, act locally", came from?

Primal thinks I haven't got a clue when actually I've been there, done that.;)
I understand why Primal's frustration with my "ignorance", but my attempt at a humorous response stems from trying not to give advice because....

The way that it works is that other countries are in deep debt to us.

Nobody's paid us for WWII yet. Oh wait, I kind of remember hearing that maybe Finland did ...

My sig line contains a quote from a book that you have to read.

Rationalization and cognitive dissonance. :-)

It's actually quite possible to get good advice from elders. But, like every other cohort or demographic group, some of them are assholes. You have to be selective.

Well, actually, lend lease payments from the UK might be completed at the end of this year.:yelgreedy

BTW, at no point have we lent out the trillion dollars in debt that are held in Asia.

It may not look like it but there is an "American dream". Read some history on English life & law in the 16th and 17th centuries, then read the Articles of Confederation, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Remember that the rest of the western world was living under monarchical rule at the time. In fact what we accomplished was extraordinary. And the fact that we're still here, bitching and moaning, means that we've succeeded in holding onto these democratic ideals. Give credit where due.

Yeah, we've lost our way...who hasn't? In fact many times. And many times we found our way back. If America is known for one thing it's its constant state of change and flux. Don't give up.

Excellent book...sad and depressing, but pulls us out of the trees to see the forest. And there's no question that the vortex has given industry, government and the wealthy a free pass for decades. Thank you Mr. Greenspan, et al..

I think it goes like this

The teenager understands 20% of the world, and believes s/he understands 80%.

The adult understands 30%, and believes s/he understands 60%.

The elderly adult understands 40% and believes s/he understands 40%.

The people I've voted for CAN'T do their job because they're outnumbered by an administration and Congress that WON'T let them.

I know exactly how that goes...but at the same time, that's like saying the system accomplished its mission...to so discourage change, to turn such a deaf ear, that there's no alternative but to hunker down, nose to the grindstone, and try to survive. Also known as oppression.

At 21 maybe Primal is frightened by the current conditions. I know I was - way back when. And way back then we did something about it. We marched, took tear gas, bled, some died, but we persisted, and our world changed. Difference today? Not enough of the young are united under a common banner. They're the only ones who are free enough of the vortex to get out there and make the change happen...that's what pisses me off when youth complains. Don't like it....THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...we did...it's now their turn.

:) Well said! Which is why we "seasoned" folk shouldn't be put off by the extremism of youth. In fact, we have a responsibility to pass on the knowledge if we want our kids to have a liveable world.

And then the world changes.

Whoa, don't diss teens. I don't believe I understand more than 70%!

:notworthy

70%?...so with that blissful ignorance, get the hell out there and make the system change!! If your house & car won't be re-possessed, if you aren't hogtied to a job, if you don't have debt in the thousands, if you have no kids to feed and haven't had to face your mortality, then you have the time and wherewithal to make it happen! Make it happen, Cap'n!!

amen brother

Watch out Bruce...your cynicism will wake up my cynicism and I'm not sure we wanna go there.....:D

Which gives rise to
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and

and

Well, you can possibly survive on low-wage jobs as long as you or your family doesn't get sick.

So as part of the mandatory credit counseling which people have to go through as part of the new bankruptcy law, I guess the advice given boils down to "don't get sick".

"Even middle-class insured families often fall prey to financial catastrophe when sick."

The sickening part of it is that in order to get any help from the state in dealing with a catastrophic illness the family first has to use up all savings, all assets, liquidate holdings, and sell their home. Which means, to an older retired self-sufficient couple, everything they worked for has to go and because they're older, they won't have the time or opportunity to build it all up again. So in order to live, you must give up your life and all you worked for.

And all so stockholders and leaders of the insurance industry and their lobbyists can pocket their returns.

Anybody seen "Bullworth"?

...Er, I was kidding.

I have a firm enough grasp of the world to know what I'm talking about, else I don't talk about it. I will always fully admit when I don't have the expeirence to know something. I can usually hold my own with people older than me... at least, I think I can.

I DO know that I know more about the world around me than most people my age. Not because I'm arrogant; I am arrogant sometimes, but I know when I'm being so. I know that I know more because I WANT to know more. I can't say the same about the majority of fifteen-year-olds.

Again, mellow out.

Uh-huh. Your point?

Ah, sorry. Bad assumption on my part and a lack of profile field. Thanks for clearing that up.

you hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head right there.
what frightens me even moreso is that the majority of people my age just dont care.
im scared to think about what our future will be like for americans.
most of my generation is undereducated, highschool dropouts (me included, i decided to take a hard road) unaware of anything that is going on in this country or with foriegn relations etc.
which gives the system the perfect oppurtunity to rape us.
i will say this, i come from one of those lower class families that cant even afford health insurance. its infuriating.
my mom has a drug problem and cant even get into a government funded rehab because her income is "too high"
so they might as well say youre poor, not poor enough, i guess youre fucked.
and my fear is that things like that will only get worse as time goes by.
think about the progression of corruption from the 1950's until now. it was a swift sociological downfall, more crime rates, more drugs, etc.
i constantly fear that we're hurling ourselves towards destruction. and our governemnt is so concerned over keeping drugs off the street that they miss so many rapists and cerial killers and pedofiles its not even funny. we are not focused on the real issues and that my friend is scary.
and thats only one little sliver out of a big pie of things that are not right and that are more than likely detrimental to this country's future.
our elders are not preparing our youth to run this country in the future.

and i'd love to do something about it but im at a total loss. no one else i know even cares enough. :(

and to any one ive offended i'll come out and say this.
i express my opinions with force because i like the forceful results i get from other people.
anything you believe in should always be carried out with a sense of passion.
and im not one of those little girls who will let everything you say go into one ear and out of the other.
i do take into account that youre older and have been alive longer than me. and it would be a flat out lie to say im not still angst ridden and confused.
but conversations like this help me make sense of it all.
ive always firmly believed that you can never have an educated opinion on anything unless you look at it from every different angle that you possibly can, hence i thrive on debates like this.
i really didnt mean to come up in here acting like a snotty know it all which is pretty much the aire i gave off.
im just a passionate person when it comes to what i believe in.
my apologies.

Primal, no apologies necessary. The only problem I see is you were yelling at the choir. Stick around and I think you'll find most of the people in the Cellar are aware of the problems with our system and society.
It's a good place to bounce ideas or vent, just don't assume we're the enemy.

You'll fit in fine.:thumb:

PM.....
Please Do voice your opinions with force. That has always been my (as well as many others here) practice. I have and will feel strongly enough about my values , especially when it comes to these US, that I was and am willing to fight and die for them.

Do yourself a favor and don't be offended when someone else voices theirs. I never look down to 'younger folks' as I remember being your age. You are the future of our country.

Ever consider the Marine Corps? You could really put your views in action there. Of course you'd have to move out of Mom's house.

Welcome to the Cellar. I think we'll get along just fine.

thanks for being so understanding guys. i think im going to like it here. :)

Primal -- CapnHowdy and Bruce said it all. And I'm a passionate among apathetics too....which is why I joined the Cellar. Being able to hang out with opinionated, outspoken, intelligent, sometimes obnoxious, funny, folks...it's kinda like home ;)
So, one newbie to another, stick around, we'll have some fun, maybe even find some answers!! :jig:

i must say the atmosphere around here is much different from other boards im on.
people are clever, but extremely childish on other boards.
i like the fact that there's older people around here. perhaps i can learn a thing or two. ;)

I know I have.

You oughtta check out the politics and current events forums. They're fun, and sure to raise your blood pressure.

What it means to be an American

It means you will learn to hate our youth footb... er soccer programs which crush individual initiative in favor of a boring team game which won't get us anywhere in the cup.

Wait a minute, only sometimes obnoxious? I mean, here I am, putting in my best effort day after day, and all I rate is sometimes obnoxious?

I mean, what's next, mostly harmless?:D

Partially passionate. :p

Frequently fickle, often obstreperous.

almost positive

I so know what you mean. ;) Welcome!






:lol:

tepidly tenacious

marshalled mediocrity

Quote:
Originally Posted by richlevy
Frequently fickle, often obstreperous.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
Partially passionate.


Who's good at "Higgledypiggledy verse?" These have the right rhythm.

(Higgledy Piggledy
Anna Karenina
Went off her feed and just couldn't relax
So Higgledy Piggledy
Anna Karenina
Went to the station, and lay on the tracks.)

Anna Karenina,
Partially passionate...

Teddy Roosevelt (usually misattributed as part of a presidential speech in 1907, actually quoted from a 1919 letter)

Being an american... even with the above arguments, it means being one of the luckiest people on earth. This is not sappy patriotism, trust me. The difference between America's life-style and that of most of the world is incredible- even our lower classes are not that bad off. Being an American means... being a little more adventurous, more willing to take risks, and taking for granted a prosperity that other peoples would be willing to kill for. It means rarely being satisfied with our lot in life, and never being satisfied with our government. Both are good. And it means tolerance of others, enforced if necessary. The last is more important, I think, than most people ever realize. Being an American should mean not letting our prosperity lure us into complacency regarding the most important things- namely, our rights, our freedoms, the separation of church and state, and the balance in our government. But, nope.

I agree with all you said... but with one added thing, responsibility. Most have forgotten that.
Freedom also means the freedom to be exposed to other's freedom. Speech we don't like, the freedom to change the channel, to NOT listen to certain music or got to a restaurant if they let people smoke on their private property... that we have decided that we are only free if all think like us makes me very sad.
America is dying.

I have to agree.

Everyone's gonna be free
But they hafta agree to be free
They hafta agree to be less free than me
'Cause I rule the world, you see...