Can't sleep.

That's why I'm at the office at 5:30...wondering thinking why I'm all alone out in the cold.

edit:

Holy crap you all responded and I didn't even see them.. I didn't refresh the screen. d'oh. Thanks.

shit. I had a long htankful post written. to all of you.

I lost it. I am lost.

today is our 16th wedding anniversary. Happy Anniversary!!





I'm going back over to that other thread. I'm broken. I'm done. I will never be whole again. My whole life has been ripped from me. What I have given is gone. My name will be removed from the history books. I'm being written out of the play. My usefulness has expired. I have nothing to offer. All that remains is the cooling rotting corpse. "Come away from there!" Don't touch it! That's not good for you! You'll get sick! You'll get hurt! Leave that alone, I don't care if it looks like your daddy, it's dangerous.

goddammit I can't win. I can't survive.

The best part about hitting bottom is that everything gets better from that point. It is clarifying, transformative, and it makes you into a wiser and better human being.

.

The other day my band was playing this doofy little bar, like we always do, and we played "She Hates Me",



And this middle-aged guy comes over and tells us how much he absolutely loves us for playing that, it was a moment for him; and then, how his wife hated him and divorced him and now he's out living and loving life.

And for the rest of the night he danced up close with this chick who looked like she was about 16 and had no ass at all. I mean it was weird, but you know there are these skinny chicks that are so skinny that they have no ass or hips, and I personally wouldn't go there because it would feel weird, she could have been his daughter, but there he was with her in all his glory.

Yes you can, she is NOT you. You can move on without her and redefine yourself.
That you feel this way SHOWS that you were in an unhealthy relationship.
I wish you could see this.
She is a separate person who is CHOOSING to handle this in the way she is because SHE wants to... it says NOTHING about YOU.
See that and let it help you sever those feelings.
Start working on creating love for yourself and your life now, she is the past and only that.

Also worth remembering that she is not your children either. Just because she is limiting your contact right now and you feel cut off from your family, she is only separating herself from you in the long term. Your children will still be your children regardless of whether she is your wife or not.

Exactly, the faster you win this, the faster you will get to spend time with your children.
The better you do at this divorce the more time and rights you will have with your children.
As hard as it is to see her this way, she is currently your adversary.
Seeing her that way can help to focus your pain.

Hmmph. I need help now on how to communicate with her now. After the divorce is final is too late, it is too far in the future. I want to know how to better handle the situation at hand now.

Friends with ex.. more future past tense. I admit that that sounds good, that "someday" we can be friends but "today" there are lives being demolished. The plans for those future lives are being written "today". I need to communicate with her "today" so those plans can make the best possible lives for all, including and especially our YS.

heh. I'm curious though. What is this "normally" thing you're talking about?

god, what an understatement.

Wow. Sounds familiar. We've been to counseling. There may be more counseling ahead. Your remarks about your husband's inability to be honest--ouch. I have been accused of the same thing. Exactly the same thing. That's a major stumbling block between us. How do you, no, how does one determine honesty? Especially when it's just the three of you in the room? He said, she said, and the counselor flips a coin?

Honestly (no pun intended) I wish for nothing more than for us to understand each other. Review my posts. You will find a very consistent line there, my desire for us to make that connection. But we disagree on some things and we have not found a way around them. I believe she has come to exactly the same conclusion you have, she's given up waiting for me to be honest. See ya. She no longer wants to work it out.

But from these shoes, I am being honest.

I believe it is possible for me, or you, or her, to believe something, and be wrong. I believe I'm being honest. I could be wrong. She believes I'm a danger to her and to my son. She's wrong. She believes I'm being dishonest. She's wrong. How are such disconnects ever resolved?

In my experience, there are a number of ways. Some things are objectively measurable. So measure it. What is the answer and to how many decimal places? That's a good way to resolve the gap between belief and truth.

There are some areas where belief is not easily measured, though. She filed the restraining order and said she feared for her safety and for our son's safety. I think she believed it, and so that was true. But it didn't happen, there have been no triple ax murder suicides in the papers, you'd've seen it, no? So fear, true; unfounded, true. But it could happen tomorrow! Repeat the process. There's no end to this. I can never prove it. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Especially when we're talking about what "could" happen.

Better we should change the discussion to what probably will happen. There the ground is firmer, because then you can fairly incorporate into your predictions the facts of what has gone before. Certainly there are limits to the usefulness of this process, but we all use it successfully every stinkin day. What mostly happens? xyz. What will probably happen? more x, more y, more z. Is there anyone out there that doesn't operate this way? Is there any functional adult in the audience who has to relearn the world each morning from experience, with no help from his memory? I didn't think so. And that dude from Memento doesn't count.

So far, so good. But we fail (recursively) to decide on what x is. On what y is. It's very very discouraging. Ideally, the strategy outlined above is applicable here too. Can you measure it? If so, do so. Compare the measurements to the reported

Which brings us back to do. There has to be some willingness to try to reach understanding with the other. I can not conceive of an acceptable substitute for that willingness, that desire to connect to the other. Absent that, all is lost.

*sigh*

To me, this is the most true and most painful and most likely. Thanks, kinda.

See above.

I have called her as much as I dare. Mostly my calls are ignored. When they're not ignored, we mostly get into a fight on the phone. I hate that. It's like we're speaking two different languages. Have you ever been in that situation? You hear them talking but you don't understand what they're saying, and they don't understand you? We're there. Except we don't have the mutual interest in trying to understand each other. She thinks all my actions and words are attacks on her. She thinks I'm dangerous or sneaky or mean or all three.

I love her. I can see that while I wish to remain her husband, she is unwilling to remain my wife. I will accept friend if that is the best I can hope for. But tragically, she doesn't consider me a friend either.

And the threat that I represent to her is magnified when our son is the topic of conversation. I don't know what to do.

Well, she just called me. She answered a question I asked her this morning. I asked her if I could come by after work to give her a card and some flowers. It's our 16th wedding anniversary today.

She said no. She said she's scared of me.

things are not ok.

Deuce. Is she genuinely scared of you? If you believe she is, what grounds does she have for that fear?

I hate to say this, but if this is the tack she chooses, I would limit all communications to those routed through my lawyer.
I promise you, anything can be turned to a negative if this is what she is saying. It does not matter if it is genuine or not.
Flowers can equal harassment.

I would not answers calls from her. It could be bait.

You want to spend as much time with your son as you can... WIN.

Sound advice I'd say.

How can you say, "this is the tack she chooses" when we don't even know her. For that matter we don't know Deuce. Yes, he is a member of this site and she is not but we do not know that her "tack" is unwarranted. Maybe it is. Sorry, but I have to play devil's advocate again. You are condemning a woman we do not even know. I hope foe the sake of the both of them that this fear she has is not so. BUT, if it is, perhaps she has a right to protect herself.

rkzenrage: Dude. "bait"?? wtf? I'm glad I don't live in a world where a call is bait. I can't. I can't function in a world where that level of paranoia is required to function.

YOu're right on one score, however. I do want to ensure that our son isn't deprived of the chance to be fathered, by me. To me that means, as a prerequisite, as a minimum, showing up. Being present. I want to be with him every day. I couldn't see him today and it kills me.

It is not good for a boy to not have a father.

Deuce,
Have you seen him since this all started? Have you spoken to him?

Yes, I have seen him, I have spoken to him. I miss him terribly. He has told me that he misses me, and that kills me. I should not be so absent that I'm missed. He needs me, he needs his father. He needs his mother too. But right now I'm being shut out, prevented from spending time with him, and that's not right. That's not good for a young boy.

I want what's best for our son, and that means being there, but I am not there.

How come you won't divulge why it is she thinks you're a danger to her and her son? Restraining orders usually require some sort of evidence - they're just issued willy-nilly on any old whim.

Perhaps getting to the root of that will give you the solution to the problem.

A woman needs say no more than "I'm scared" to get a restraining order on her husband - thats a fact!

Deuce - You gotta shake this off and fight your ass off to get this shit done and over with as quickly as possible - you need to accept the reality that she doesn't want you in her life - AND that has nothing to do with your son. They are two completely seperate issues. The fact that you are being temporarily shut out TOTALLY SUX, but that is temporary - Don't lose sight of that. I lost all three of my kids for months - I didn't even talk to my daughter for almost 6 months! That time has passed for me and I see much clearer now. I talk to every one of them every day.
You need unemotional counsel to guide you through this. You are not in a state of mind to make the best and/or most rational decisions - you yourself have admitted this. You need someone to take the wheel for a bit to let your emotions catch up with your intellect.

I've been there - right there where you are crying non-stop with no feelings other than dispair, no joy, no happiness, no energy. Just a lot of nothingness and negativity. All I can say is STOP IT now and focus on the future and the many wonderful times you will spend with your son as soon as you get all this crap over with. Get the lawyer, get the help and get this shit done.

Then get your ass over here cuz we're goin tuna fishin or bottom fishin together on the boat - whatever HE wants! You and your son with me and my boys.
That, my friend, is an open invitation and a promise.
F
O
C
U
S

(I'm just keeping in mind there's 3 sides to every story: his, hers, and the truth. We're only getting 1 side. And I smell something fishy. And it's not ********'s twat this time.)

kgg this isn't about condemning her. This is about ensuring that if what she is doing is being done as part of the 'divorce game' then deuce protects himself.

I couldn't give a shit abotu her, because I don't know her and she's never posted here. Doesn't mean I think she's in the wrong, she might be in the right. Not the point: Deuce is here, he's a dwellar, we want him to be okay. The advice here in this thread is offered in that spirit.

Also...the woman has taken out court orders against him. She has prevented him from seeing his children. It does not really matter whether her reasons were valid/understandable to us or not. Right now, anger is deuce's friend. She is not.

Smurf, I see your point, and indeed I have asked the same question. Ultimately though, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that Deuce and his (ex) wife get to the end of this process with as little trauma as possible. What matters is that at the end of this process there will be a degree of peace and stability in which to reflect on it.

I'm glad to see you hanging in there Deuce. Think about getting an order allowing you visitation with your son. That should be a relatively simple thing to do.

Obviously the restraining order doesn't say "no contact whatsoever" as he has stated, he has seen and talked to his son. So that is a good thing. Obviously she is not being vindictive otherwise it would be no contact period, over and out. Yes, there are two sides to every story, I agree and even though he is a dwellar, she still has a story that perhaps has truth to it as well.

She is being portrayed as someone who is saying "I;m scared" just to be mean. I don't get that feeling.

Wait a minute. Where did I say that the restraining order says "no contact whatsoever"?

You're absolutely right about contact with our son. That is a very good thing, a boy needs his father. There are some things a mother can't do for a adolescent boy. For him to be the best, most complete person possible, he needs both parents. There are some things that only a Dad can do. And the overwhelming evidence of the harm suffered by children across the country from not having a Dad around is terrifying. And tragic in this case, since I am not being a deadbeat dad, I **want** to be there, but I am being prevented from being there. That is wrong, and directly harmful to our son.

As to the vindictiveness.... there is plenty hurt to go around here, and adults can fight mean. But injuring our child because one parent is mad at the other is wrong. I won't stand for it.

Well, for sure everybody here has had an earful of my side of the story. Obviously, I can't tell her side of the story. ***That's exactly*** the problem, she doesn't believe I understand her, and I guess I don't. I wish she'd tell her side of the story. Undoubtedly there is truth to her side as well. But every time I try to repeat back to her what I understand she's saying, I get it wrong. And when she tells me what I'm thinking and meaning, that's often wrong. It is fucked up. You want her side of the story, ask her. I've tried explaining it here, apparently I can't make myself understood to y'all any better than I can make myself understood to her.

I'm curious, what feeling do you get?

Here's my take on it. First the bad news. She can be mean. Some of the things she says to me,


heh.

I put up a whole freakin thread about it. Y'know what it's called? I want to die. You could look it up. I dont' know if you've seen it or posted there... She has an ability, unmatched in the whole world, to hurt me more than anyone or anything else. And it's because I have deliberately left my heart open to her. I love her. While I remain open to sharing my love for her and the possiblity for her love for me, I remain open as well for the hurt. I could protect myself from such hurt, by closing my heart. But I won't. I can't.

I have taken an enormous amount of shit from a lot of people who say why put up with that?, read the thread here for yourself. I can't explain it any better than that. I love her, and that make me vulnerable to her.

Now the .. what? less bad news. I think she's saying "I'm scared" because she is scared. But unreasonably so. The things she's told me she's scared about all hinge on how someday I'll blow up and hurt everybody. She's told me she's lain awake with 9-1- already dialed with her finger on the 1, cause she's afraid I'm going to try to kill her.

That just makes me want to cry.

Kill her? Somebody who's afraid like that, how can *I* put them at ease? I'm the very source of the fear? If you have a suggestion, I'm all ears.

I don't think it's because she is trying to be mean, despite the fact that the results of her actions hurt me far more than she knows, and hurts our son far more than she knows. I think she's acting, no, overreacting out of fear. But those fears are completely unfounded. I don't know how to tell her that. I wish I did.

Not you saying no contact whatsoever. I am talking about the others that have responded here hinting that that is the case. That doesn't seem to be the case here. No need to get defensive. I'm not out to get you. It sounds like she is allowing you contact with him albeit it is not 24 hrs/day.

You won't stand for one parent being mean to the other. I can understand that completely. So are you saying she is the only one being mean. Your posts can seem pretty mean spirited. It is one thing to be passionate about your feelings but both people can go too far with the end result possibly hurting the child. I can't imagine either one of you would do that intentionally. She is hurting you, you are probably hurting her too. It's just that she took action and that hurts worse. I don't know.

being married for...what did you say....16 years? I imagine both of you know exactly what buttons to push to maximize the hurt factor. You are hurt. Understandable. She must be hurting to so take that into consideration. If you both do that, hopefully the anger will go away. 16 years is a long time to not feel some compassion for each other. Try it. I messed up a long term relationship because I didn't try it and am now much wiser because of it.

Who said anything about a son not having a father? In fact I was the one trying to tell you how to make sure you don't slip-up in that area.
Be paranoid about everything else but the person who is trying to actually do what you are worried about... don't listen to me at all, this will be my last post.
I have been around this kind of stuff my whole life and know how these restraining orders work and know that people will create openings for others to walk through them on their own so they will have that on their side in court or deliberations later.
If she is playing this to win and you are just trying to get to talk to her and spend every second with your son every day that you can and she knows this, you are fucked. Have fun, because you are not in this for the long haul.
A divorce is not about feelings it is about assets and privileges and who "deserves" them and there are no rules as to how the perception of that is obtained and it seems to me that you are completely unaware as to what is happening here.
I gave you advice based on experience, those orders are nothing to play with, every word you say can be turned and used against you....
But you chose to try to make it seem like I was your enemy by trying to show you that.
Forget it man, forget you.

I think Smurf and I know from experience here. Professional and otherwise. Please, please listen Deuce.

rk, I think you are being unfair there.

I'm sorry Deuce...your world turned into a paranoid thriller when your own wife said that you were a threat to her and your family. It's called reality...paranoid...yes...but also your new reality.

Either way- she shouldn't be talking to you. I don't know what you did. But she has got to stop- this can get you in deep doo-doo.

I get two impressions here. One is that they are talking and attempting, at times, to work things through. She has not called the cops yet and why would she because they can just say she allowed him to talk/see her. The other one is, Deuce is wantingto talk to her as well. So he in fact isn't too worried about the restraining order and must trust her somewhat in that she hasn't called him in. He knows her better than we.

So Deuce, I ask you, do you really think she will call? I think that perhaps she is afraid due to something we do not know about but that she must still care enough to want to work through some things together with you in a friendly manner. Am I wrong? And one last thing, we don't know that she keeps calling him. He hasn't said that she is the one doing all the calling. It sounds like he is calling her too. Fess up man.

People lie. If the stakes are a better deal in the divorce and custody of children, then it has to be considered as a possibility. Even if it's unlikely, because the cost of calling that wrong are very fucking high if you're a Dad who wants access to his kids.

Of course Deuce wants to talk to her, he is in love with her and doesn't want the relationship to end. Newsflash, she clearly does.

Has anything Deuce said given you even the slightest indication that she wants to work through anything in a friendly manner?

Deuce, kgg is telling you what you want to hear. he is doing so in all genuine good intent I am sure. But...it's still what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. That's my opinion anyway.

While I do think that it is bad for one parent to be mean to the other, you really missed what I said.
It is the welfare of our son that I am most concerned about. These two are so closely linked that they're difficult to separate. But it is a greater tragedy that our son suffers because we're unable to get along, or because we're unable to manage our conflict in a constructive manner.

No, I have said that there's hurt on both sides. There's so much hurt that we can't see our way back to each other, back to the love and family that we share. rkzenrage has already given up on me. My wife has given up on me. I haven't given up. I'm working through the pain to reach her. Through *my* pain. Trying not to increase *her* pain. I have never said that she's the only one being mean... I hurt and she hurts.

Ok, I guess I misunderstood you about the "no contact" thing in the other quote. But I have to ask you again, which of my posts "seem pretty mean spirited"? For sure, I was writing at times when I was crushed with pain, drowned with fear. But I went back and re-read them, and I don't see the meanness you're talking about.

I'm asking because I've heard this before. "That hurt, that was mean." I must have some blind spot here, and dammit, it's a problem for me. I have never posted anything with that intention. What did I post that was mean? Can you explain that to me, please?

Nor can I imagine it, not even unintentionally. She is a very strong person, and fiercely protective of our children. I admire that. And there is no limit to the love I have for our children. Right now, the hurt our youngest son is suffering, and believe me, he is suffering, is from our inability to manage our conflict constructively. In fact, it's so bad that our fighting hurts him, and the fighting that's leading to divorce hurts him. And this is likely just the opening act. Actually living apart will be awful, expensive, and destructive. It will be like dying. There will be a death of the family our son has known all his life, the only family structure he knows. If that pain is avoidable, and I am convinced that it is possible to avoid it, that I should withhold nothing in my efforts to do so.

Yes, sadly, you're right. I regret that I agree with you, she is hurting. And the fucked up part of it is that I am the source of that pain. I can't tell you how much I hate that. I would stop it in an instant if I knew what to stop. And I can do that too. I am a strong person too. I can take action, I can persevere. I do not shirk from hard work.

And, yes, I am hurting too.

I want to give her every consideration, I want compassion and forgiveness and love to flow again. It is there. But I don't know how to get to it.

I am filled with compassion for her, and I think there is some compassion in her for me, but that it is hidden behind a protective wall, made of bricks of anger mortared together by pain. Anger and pain topped by fear makes a redoubtable defense. I love her, and I weep for her pain and fear. But I don't know how to salve it.

They say that you learn from your mistakes, but there are so many mistakes to be made, that I don't think I could fit them all into my one lifetime. Better I should learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of others. You paint a sympathetic picture, and your last remark intrigues me. If you are willing, I would like to hear about your experience. Perhaps I could avoid the mistakes you lived through. I could sure use the help. I would like to benefit from your increased wisdom.

Deuce, you haven't sounded at all mean spirited to me in your posts. You just sound like someone who is hurting.

Sometimes it isn't about changing, isn't about hardwork. Sometimes it is simply that two people are no longer compatible, are no longer good for each other. It's entirely possible that the things your wife says she can't deal with (like you being hurtful, or not being emotionally honest) are merely manifestations of that lack of compatibility. It's equally possible (indeed probable) that the same things that drew her to you now drive her from you. What may have seemed like strength and self sufficiency when she was in love, may seem like a lack of openness now. What may have seemed like passion and fire, may now seem like frightening anger.

The things that first attract us are often the things that later repel us.

You seem to believe this is your fault Deuce. You seem to have taken on all the responsibility for making this situation: like it's all because you can't express yourself or let her in, or are too angry and explosive. More likely, but more painful as it's fundamentally unfixable, is that the person she is now is not in love with the person you are now. That doesn't mean the peson you are is wrong.

You say you love your wife, but do you respect her? She has clearly stated what she wants (and doesn't want), but are you accepting that?

She is not half of you...she is her own person, with her own feelings, needs, desires, and choices to make. Love allows the other person to be free to go their own way, even if it hurts like all hell and honors their stated wishes, even if it rips your own heart out.

Self-esteem draws the line at continuing to give one's all when that is becoming destructive to one's wellbeing. When you feel like you cannot live without her, then you have possibly become overinvested in her and unhealthily enmeshed. Often, when that happens, the person who has done so becomes controlling and obsessive over their partner (although I do not know if that is true in your marriage).

If someone really loves, honors and respects another, they will not continue to argue a point clearly stated, call against their wishes, write them, and/or invade their world without an express invitation.

If your wife went to the trouble to get an RO, then she obviously has issues with your form of contact with her. Is it not possible to step back and allow her the space that she apparently so desparately desires?

Your relationship with your son is completely separate from the one with your wife. It is the one that you can affect at this point. Why not concentrate your energies on strengthening that relationship and doing what is necessary to preserve your spot in his life (visitation, contact arrangements, etc.)?

I do not believe that the greatest gift you can give your son is to love his mother, I believe the greatest gift you can give your son is to love him. Period. A steadfast, solid love that never waivers and is not dependant upon your relationship with his mother is much more important to a child than anything else. In fact, parent's relationships with each other should be kept totally OUT of their relationship with their children. Kids need to know that their mother and father love them even if/when the marriage breaks up and that they are not involved in that whatsoever.

Get an attorney, make unshakeable visitation arrangements and let time heal the wounds. When emotions have cooled down and the shock has worn off, there will be plenty of time to analyse, dissect and discuss what happened. Sometimes there is no understanding possible, one must simply accept the situation and make the best of it.

Time and space will usually bring clarity.

I thank you for your concern for me, truly I do. I would hope that you care for the things I care about too, which means a certain amount of compassion and respect for my wife. **I** give a shit about her.

Man, I think you're full of it. Divorce is not about feelings? Right, that's why Costco carries them in a handy twelve pack. Are you cracked? Are you a Vulcan? I previously excused you from answering for precisely this reason. Your money's no good on my planet. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and permit myself to think you were acting with good intentions. Good or not, your delivery sucks and I'm done with you too. Buhbye.

Perhaps you two do, I damn sure don't. I'm trying my hardest to do what needs to be done, to do the right thing, to achieve the greatest good while causing the least harm. It's not easy in the best of circumstances, and I appreciate the different perspectives here, the opportunity to share the wisdom gained from other's experiences. But, I must filter all that input into what works for my situation. rkzenrage's for example, not working for me. Thankfully, others here have offered insights that I can apply.

I know. It scares the shit out of me. But I'm not able to just walk away. I can't. I don't know how to explain that more betterer. Not talking is how we got into this fuckin mess. Somebody's got to talk to get us to any conclusion. Lord knows I'm motivated and, as you can plainly see, I'm a talker.

jeeze I can't keep up with you guys. I'm not complaining, I find it helpful. It's just waay more input than I've had recently. Like coming back from a ... what do you call those things where you go away and enjoy the silence ... a retreat.

Yes, an enforced retreat (also known as solitary confinement). Please, continue.

My apologies Deuce, my words came out more harshly than I had intended. I was simply trying to get across to kgg, that here and now this community's main concern is you, as you are the dwellar. You are the one we are looking out for here. We're not here to be 'fair' we're here to be supportive, of you.

Sorry mate, I think we bombarded you a little:P

Thank you, I accept your apology.
As I said, I appreciate the input, some is helpful, some is less so. I freely admit that I do like what kgg says. I think his insights are valuable, and I do like hearing them. I also value the good intentions of all those concerned and generous enough to offer their input. Even rkzenrage, without qualification.

I am grateful.

What's the current situation then Deuce? Did you sort out a lawyer?

Stop a minute. Correction. I am terrified of the potential downside of the restraining order. It is a MAJOR obstacle to our communication. I feel she ordered it to get some confidence that she would be protected physically, but had no idea what a communication block it represents. She said she was afraid what I would do when I got the news of the divorce. Those fears have proved to be completely unfounded.

Yes, I think she will call. I think she will call if she gets the sense that her safety is at risk, or the safety of our son. I think you're right, she is afraid. But her fears are unfounded. The things she said she was worried might happen, never happened. I never became violent, I never took our son, I never stalked, threatened, harassed, approached, etc etc. Good grief.

Frankly she should call in those situations. But you don't need a restraining order to have that kind of protection. A restraining order doesn't make the cops get there any faster when you dial 911.

You mention care. I wish she cared. I wonder if she cares. If she does care, she's sending seriously mixed messages. I hope she cares. I care. I want to work things out too, and friendly is better.

I don't exactly follow you on what you want me to fess up about. Clarify please.

She could be lying, I don't know. I don't think so. I evaluate this continuously. When I feel endangered, I cease contact. I can't parent my son from jail. You're damn skippy the stakes are high. Nothing in my life has represented higher stakes than this. I am paying attention, you can bet the rent.

Some clarifications. I do love her. Not exactly the same as in love, though.

The relationship will not end, whether or not I want it to. I know the relationship will continue, because we have a young child together, that binds us.

I absofreakinlutely guarantee that the relationship will change. We can not continue as we are. The conflict, the arguing. **NOT** sustainable, not endurable, not healthy. We will change. We may be together, married. We may be together as divorced parents of a young child whom we both love. We may be divorced parents of a child we love that have not found a way to manage their conflict constructively and consequently limit the exposure and opportunity for conflict to the barest minimum. There will be a change, the current situation will not continue. I promise.

That's actually a good question, I don't know. Have I?

Thanks. I don't want to sound mean. I am hurting. kgg, which ones were mean spirited?

wtf?
I don't mean to be disrespectful, or dense, but I really don't understand what you're going on about? I get the words, but... :shakes head: I don't understand the changes stuff you described. Are you willing to try to explain it again?
shit.

I know I bear some responsibility for where we're at. Not all. My share. And whatever will become of us, will depend on how much I put into this change. Not all. My share. But if I put in as much as I can, I know I will have done my best, and that's all my Dad ever asked of me.

You could be right. Or at least partly right. I believe you are at least partly right.





Tell ya another little secret. I ain't buying the "unfixable" concept. There's a galactic gulf between can't and won't.

Fess up meaning tell us that you call her. Is she really the one doing all the calling? If not, than lay off on that just a bit. That's all. Be truthful and honest. That's all. I'm glad you like some of the things I say.

That's a fact jack!

Yes.

Do you require further support for my answer?
She has said many things clearly not all of them the same. I am trying to listen and understand with my heart, as well as my head. The mixed messages are real. We all do it from time to time to some degree. So my acceptance, it's necessarily mixed too. The situation becomes even more complicated when *my* desires are incorporated into the mix.

Yes, I know. I agree. I have never obstructed or assisted her in the process of the divorce, all the times it has come up. I can not keep her. I don't want to keep her. I want to be near her because she wants to be near me. I want mutual affinity and affection. Not possession. Not a pet.

And I'm prepared to have my heart ripped out. I won't like it, but I will endure it.
You may be on to something here, but I may not be in the best position to verify it. I am heavily invested in her. But I am most definitely my own person. The roles I fill describe me, but they are not me, just as no map is the terrain.

Another good observation.

It certainly is possible and respectful to permit that space she's seeking. But to clarify, she wanted security, not space, as defined in the restraining order. If you go back and read some of the earlier posts, there were many calls from her while I was still reeling from the shock of the RO. This is an example of the mixed messages I've described. Space. Ok. Security. Ok. Contact. Ok. She's calling the shots, not me.

Another good point. Not quite a bullseye, though. There is no way to completely separate my relationship with my son from my relationship with my wife. Really. I can compartmentalize the two if necessary, but they overlap, they're not disjoint. You may rest assured that I will build the best strongest relationship possible with our son that I can manage, regardless of my relationship with my wife.

I respectfully disagree. I have spoken at length elsewhere describing my thoughts on this aspect, and I will not repeat them here, since you've obviously read them and brought my own quote into your remarks. Our ideas overlap, but we do not share the same focus.

You're right again. Thank you for your care and your effort to talk to me. I appreciate it.

Um, ok. Yes, I have called her over the course of this process, a number of times. There are at least three or four posts that talk about our conversations, some of which I initiated over the phone.

(lay off on that? wtf?)

Man, I am truthful and honest. Have I given you any reason to believe otherwise?

And while we're at it, which of my posts were mean spirited?

And What's your answer to this question too? Come on, fess up. :)

OKay. When my ex and I first met, some of the things I loved about him were: his intensity, his passion, his mercurial changeability, his laugh, the fact that he didn't care what other people thought, his laugh.

When I fell out of love with him, when the relationship was on the rocks and we were still living together, some of the things that drove me mad about him were: his intensity, his temper (note, this no longer looked like passion to me), his unpredictability, his inability to tailor his actions/attitude to the company we were in, thereby embarrassing the fuck out of me on a regular basis, his laugh.

At the same time, J, was beginning to be annoyed by things he used to like in me.

He had not changed utterly. He had grown-up a little and so had I, and the things that had been the basis of much of my attraction to him, after 12 years had become the things that most annoyed me and vice versa.

Talking to my friend D a few days ago about his divorce, he said "The things that first attract us, later repel: she hates me, man. She hates everything about me. The way I walk, the way I laugh, my sense of humour, my mannerisms. All the stuff that she used to like."

Now, I am not suggesting that she hates you. D's divorce was a fairly extreme case (my own opinion is his ex-wife's a full blown mentalist, but that's just my opinion and as his friend I am biased), but it illustrates a common phenomenon. My ex and I, by the way, are very good friends and I love him dearly. My other friend is now with him and deeply in love...many of the same things I found attractive in J, she is now drawn to 17 years later. I didn't fall out of love because I didn't like those character traits and mannerisms: I fell out of love therefore I no longer liked those traits and mannerisms.

I think my point is, that just because she tells you the things that drive her mad (e.g the lack of emotional honesty/communication I think you mentioned at one stage) are the problem...they may not be. The problem from her perspective may not be those things, they may just be a manifestation of a change in the state of her feelings for you. If that's the case, then 'fixing' those things in yourself would not provide a solution.

You'e the only one here that really knows the situation Deuce. All I can do is read what you post, apply it to my own experience of the world and offer advice and insights if I feel I am able. Your situation may not fit that experience of the world, or it may. You're the only one who knows.

He is not allowed to see her whether she allowed it or not. Don't you guys get that? The State is not allowing it for both parties. The State enforces these orders for a reason. It is as black and white as it sounds. She is violating her own restraining order and can get in trouble with the state as well. He needs proof that she has violated the restraining order so when she uses his contact as a negotiating point he has some self-protection. He needs to tell his attorney about her contact.

They do hand out restrainig orders willy-nilly. I've seen it. I saw a report that said the guy was "escalating" during an arguement. Yes escalating can get you a restraining order. He just found out that she had been having an affair for quite some time. I would "escalate" too. The report was empty outside of escalating. I'm escalating right now.

My point is....either you are a threat or you're not. You can't have it both ways because the state is in charge of the restraining order. Not you or your wife. Ask your attorney. You both are in violation. Now you both can get in trouble. If she is caught- the first thing she is going to do is blame it on you.

Follow the advice of your attorney.

Just follow his/her advice for now and you guys can hash things out later. You are at great risk.

I have tons of compassion for your situation, but be patient and live out the order or you could possibly see the inside of a cell and not get to see or talk to anybody except for your bunk-mate.

Thinking of you, Deuce.

Thanks. That makes one.

Two, at least, I hope. I hope you're thinking of you, too.
[hug]

Hey I'm thinking of you too! Actually that's not quite true. I was thinking of you a couple of days ago and wondering how you were getting on (which was quite bad because I was sitting on Scrutiny Committee at the time) and that led me to thinking about my parents' divorce some twenty two years ago, and in particular wondering what my Dad was feeling at the time and whether or not I gave enough attention to where he was at back then...so actually, it would be more proper for me to say I was thinking of me :P

I hope you're feeling okay (as okay as is possible in the circumstances) and I want to offer you advice from the perspective of the child of divorcing parents.

It is important that you show your children that you're still the same Dad, regardless of whether you share a house or are married to their mother. That's already been talked about in this thread and I know you are doing exactly that. What may be less obvious (unless it is obvious to others, I don't know) is the important balancing act that you need to achieve between making sure they know you love them deeply, and making sure they know that you can cope without living as a family unit.

I have very few memories of the day we actually left. Mum and Dad had been living in the same house but more or less totally estranged having begun the separation proceedings (you had to separate for one year before you could apply for divorce back then) almost a year earlier. Things were tense but 'civilised' and in many ways they did it textbook (my brother and I involved in the discussions of custody and basically given the choice, very careful to ensure we didn't blame oursellves etc). The key memory for me was when Dad brought me a cup of tea whilst I was standing in my room packing my bag. We said nothing about what was going on, it was like nothing was happening. As he went down the stairs he stopped for a moment and looked up through the bannister and the open doorway and then continued on his way. Up til then I had felt this strange mix of excitement (moving house is exciting, change is exciting when you are 12) and sorrow. But when I looked at dad I saw absolute understanding of what was happening and a deal of pain. All of a sudden the reality of what was happening struck me...we were leaving him behind.

The moment passed, we all got through it and though Dad has never been one for sharing his emotions (or indeed showing it in ways people who don't know him might recognise:P) he never left me in any doubt that he was still my dad and loved me. But...and this is why the long tale, that feeling of having left him behind, never quite shook away. It's still there and I am now 35.

A lot of that is due to the way my dad is. But much of it is due to the fact that Dad didn't seem(to me when I was 13)like he would be able to be happy at some future point.

Hence the balancing act. It's a toughie...don't try to hide your pain totally, it just looks like hidden depths of pain and they'll be able to imagine worse than you can feel. At the same time, don't overwhelm them with that pain...they need to be able to feel that at some point their dad may be happy, that them and their mum leaving the house isn't leaving you behind in a dark and unhappy place from which you can't escape. Like I say, it's a balancing act. Make sure they know you love them, but that them moving out isn't something that will sink you. Don't try and pretend that you are happy or that everything is normal, because if they're older kids especially, they'll feel you're shutting them out (imo) but make sure they understand that this is because of the stressful situation and upsetting nature of such a life change, and that as the situation moves on, you'll all be moving with it and life will eventualy reach aneven keel and nobody will be left behind. This isn't stuff you can tell them, it's what they need to experience from you.


Don't know if that's helpful, interesting, useless or upsetting. I hope not the latter two :)

everything has been ground away. ever see a machine seize up? the parts that rub against one another, for lack of lubrication, or cooling, or clearance, or bearings, or some such.... those surfaces in the absence of any help, heat up. they deform, they change so that the normal function is gone.

all the places where we touch are seized up. the normal flow of lubrication has been stopped; there is no compassion, no benefit of the doubt, no love. the normal methods of cooling are gone; there is no space, no relief. the normal things that act as bearings are missing; there is no human touch, no intimacy, no sharing.

it is all shrieking screeching sparking mess, dangerously incandescent. an expensive non functional wreck.

sad because the redline was cruelly and deliberately ignored. all the warning signs disregarded. purposefully broken.

goddammit.

It will probably seem lame of me to chime in here with "Hang in there, Deuce, it will get better", but it will. I sincerely wish you the strength to get through these bad times to the better ones ahead.

Deuce, I'd like to suggest giving this book some time. Life After Loss: A Practical Guide to Renewing Your Life After Experiencing Major Loss
by Bob Deits

The semester after my father died I took a death and dying class in college. This was one of the required textbooks. It's about grief, (from different sources, such as loss of a parent to loss of a job, including divorce) and working through it. Mine is actually an older edition. I'm sure not much has changed in the new one, except for updating of resources. There are probably divorce specific books out there, but I don't have any experience with those. Maybe someone else has?

I know you are feeling very alone, when you are up to it try to find some grief groups, or divorce groups where you can talk to people. Taking the class helped me immensely, when there was no one else I knew who was going through what I was to talk to.

.

clever.

mean though.

I'm not mean. I'm not in the desert. And I'm not alone. We're bound together, by marriage and by children. My wife, mother of my children, is not a bitch. I care about her, I love her. My heart is broken, and probably my brain too. But there's no reason, certainly nothing to be gained, by being cruel and mean. You're wrong.

Apparently, it's not all ground away. The one that loves the least, is always in control. It's not you.