From someone who clearly has expensive experience solving problems: most difficult part is getting someone to tell the truth or who simply know only because they 'feel'.

NPR's Car Talk (Klick and Klack - the tappet brothers - Tom and Ray) constantly ask this question on their show. Is the check engine light on? Most everyone cannot bother to tell them that *critical* fact. Routine is for so many users to withhold critical information because the *know* it is not important. Or simply know advice is wrong because they 'feel'. Is that person emotional or logical? That unanswered question makes problem solving most difficult.

Your computer problem - in my very first reply, execute the manufacturer's comprehensive hardware diagnostic. Since you did not like it, then you all but insulted me. What was wrong with your computer? Apparently it is failing again because that diagnostics was not executed; to see the problem before it caused complications. Despite generations of experience with computers and disk drives, instead you knew I must be wrong? 318 posts later, that problem still exist? Just another example of what Toyota is going through.

All who solve problems confront this 'the' most difficult part of solving problems. Even the TV show House identifies it: "Everyone lies". What makes solving problems most difficult? Why are these Toyota problems so hard to diagnosis. Because so many people do as you did with me. Entertain feelings and biases rather than deal with and provide facts.

To only complicate it further, the San Diego driver apparently was trying to scam Toyota. Accelerating and then applying brakes - both extremely hard - well over 250 times. Being obnoxious, then Dr House deserves high praise. Because so many routinely lie.

In Audis, drivers just 'knew' they were hitting the brakes. Finally a video tape from Consumers Reports(?) showed exactly what was happening. The driver that 'knew' he was pressing the brake was pressing the accelerator to the floor. Again, what makes problem solving so difficult? Humans who know only because they feel - and therefore lie or deny.

Ford Explorers murdering people because Firestone Tire lied for years at the highest levels of management. Now call themselves Bridgestone so that you will protect and encourage them. How many died simply because Firestone (Bridgestone) lies to everyone for years - so that the problem need not be solved. So that more will die. In every case, the most difficult part to a solution is humans who lie or who know better than others. Who entertain their feelings rather then get nasty and therefore respect facts.

Unfortunately too many need spin rather than the nastiness that attacks the only enemy - the unknown. Too many worry about themselves rather than honesty and reality. So, who is lying?

So what you are saying is that in EVERY single case, the drivers would have to be doing the EXACT same thing EVERY SINGLE time.

That is a great way to solve a problem in a controlled environment, but it doesn't work that way in the real world. People are not robots and they don't all behave the same way every time. They have different strengths, personalities and driving habits.
To attempt to make some sort of assertion that every one of these people had to do the exact same thing as every other one is ludicrous.

Are they all lying or do they really not know and are trying to remember as best they can? Are they making assumptions? Well I always do this, therefore thats what happened that day... When in reality they may have done something different and do not know or realize it.

Who are you talking to? You quoted me, but I never insulted you. Your 'help' consisted of telling me that I bought the wrong brand of laptop, and what I needed to fix it didn't exist. That's not help, that's just being an asshole (oh! there's that insult you were looking for), nothing you said was helpful. Trying to say "I told you so" at this point is just retarded.

What the hell are you talking about? My jeep is under warranty and nothing has been spent yet on the vaio. Buying a new hard drive isn't gonna break the bank.

Clearly, you think you know, but you just don't know.

Another and perfect example of Toyota's problem. I never said any of that. But jinx has somehow concluded things not stated.

Stated: more responsible computer manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics - for free. If the manufacturer is less responsible, then a diagnostic must be downloaded from the disk drive manufacturer.

How does a less responsible computer manufacturer somehow become 'the wrong brand'? It doesn't if reading only what was posted.

How does 'download diagnostic from the disk drive manufacturer' become "didn't exist"? Same disk drive diagnostic was later discovered also on the same Ultimate Boot CD web site. A failing disk could have been identified at the start if following proper diagnostic protocol. But the biggest problem is always a human.

Demonstrated again is Toyota's biggest problem. And why facts must be 'filtered' through a communications major - must be 'politically correct' rather than 'technically honest'. Too many people only hear what they want to hear (apply emotions to every statement) rather than work only with the facts.

As people get older, they just know 'hidden messages' exist where none do. This compounds into propaganda, myths, and outright lies. Just another reason why the most difficult problem in addressing problems is a wild card - the human. And Toyota's most complicated issue to a technical solution.

Some advice from an ex-communications major: Sentence number one is irrelevant. If you start with irrelevant advice, no one will bother listening long enough to get to the relevant advice. Sentence number two is convoluted and over-generalized. Might as well have said, "You have a problem? Download some stuff to fix it." Actual advice involves specifics, such as "Go to [this link] and download [this specific program.]" You may have every bit as much knowledge on this topic as Mitch does, but we'll never know, because you're not effectively communicating it. Communication skills are important, no matter how much you want to pretend they're just "emotions."

that's my whole thing.

i said 'speak fucking english!@'
but I meant what clobble said

*honk honk*

I nominate Clodfobble's post for Hall of Fame... anyone seconding?

Maybe you have completely missed the point. Jinx's reply is only a example of the topic which is why sentence one also is so relevant:
> Another and perfect example of Toyota's problem.

Meanwhile, specific links were provided in that other discussion. They could not have not been clearer - with multiple choices. Get diagnostics from the hard drive, from the provided CD-Rom, from the Sony web site, or from the disk drive manufacturer. In each case, specific links. And multiple options to make it even easier.

I have no idea what you are saying about "Go to [this link]... " because that is exactly what I did. And because that is not the topic. The topic is how humans make solutoions so complex. Or in this case, if the links are not clear, the ask for clarity.

Bottom line - you seem to think why jinx intentionally ignored me is the topic? It never was. It was a perfect example of the point. I provided 'right on' accurate procedures to identify a suspect and solution. And the only reason it was not followed is the most difficult obstruction to technical solutions - humans. Is this a discussion of that computer failure? Obviously not. And I keep saying it here for good reason. This was (and that is why the first sentence is relevant - why do you not see that?) a discusson of why Toyota's problems are made so more difficult.

I could not make the point clearer - in the very first sentence. And repeated it in the last sentence. "And Toyota's most complicated issue to a technical solution." How much clearer could I be?

85% of all problems are communication errors...

:lol:

Baloney. When you bring it up, it becomes the topic:


I know you know what a link is, because you frequently link to other threads in the cellar. A link is underlined, and when you click on it, it goes to a different site. You did not provide a link, you provided an instruction to go somewhere (the manufacturer's website.) Manufacturers do not put major, clear links to their diagnostic tools on their main page, thus your instructions are useless.

Lumberjim said to you:

And you did not reply. Later, you came back and told jinx

Translation: "Go look for this thing you don't know how to recognize. It might not be there. And if it's not, your computer sucks." Again, useless advice.

When lumberjim said, "fuck, speak english, man," your reply was "Like I said. The most difficult part of the problem is not hardware."

The fact of the matter is, you don't want to communicate better. Which is your prerogative. But don't be surprised when people ignore you, and instead take advice from people who do somehow manage to provide useful facts in simple sentences that can be understood the first time you read them.

Yeah, that pretty well sums it up...

New hard drive arrives tomorrow. Thanks to mb and jim, my old data has been saved. Happy ending.

I again bow to the almighty Clodfobble.

Simple and honest response is, "I cannot find these normally easy things to find. Please help." Instead "fuck" was posted in reply. Which demonstrates my point. Imagine Toyota's frustration when they too are dealing with people who cannot even do simple things such as ask for clarification. Who instead reply with profanity.

Where is any word that even approaches 'sucks'? None. You invented it. If thinking like wackoman, then everything is only black or white. If 'not good', then it can only 'suck'? You said that.

OK. Consumer Reports only recommends maybe 14% of the cars. According to that wackoextremist reasoning, then Consumer Reports says 85% of all cars "suck"? That is what you have posted. Can I quote you?

Some computers suck and some computers are recommended. Then is the category that extremists must refuse to understand - a third category. In an extremist's world only "good and evil", "black and white", "recommend and suck" exist. Why are you endorsing extremism? Or are you playing games taught to communication majors?

You are (I suspect) intentionally demonstrating the problem and my original point. Toyota would be suffering this same problem due to humans doing what you have just done. Humans doing what you just did are exactly why technical solutions can be so difficult. Also demonstrated by other examples such as the check engine light, House who says, "everyone lies", San Diego Prius driver, Audis, and Firestone tires.

Imagine Toyota's frustration when they make recommendations and you reply with 'sucks' or 'fuck' interpretations. When people cannot bother to ask a simple logical question, "I don't understand". Instead only reply with "fuck, talk English man". That is always the major impediment to solving a problem.

In lumberjim's case the obviously simple topmost paragraph would have identified the problem immediately. Solution obvious. It was not done only because he did not do it; instead replied with profanity.

Humans are the greatest impediment to solving problems. Amazing how 'not recommended' gets perverted into 'suck' especially when thinking as an extremists - everything is only "black or white". Another example of why humans are a major impediment to solving problems.

Meanwhile, when one does not understand what a disk drive, CDrom, or web site is, then a civil person ask probing questions - not profanity. It demonstrated perfectly the problem Toyota must be confronting.

Toyota asking technical questions, of a man who's afraid to put his car in neutral for fear it will flip over, is a waste of time.

For real?

That's what they claimed on the tube, was the CA man's answer to why he didn't shift into neutral. But not a direct quote, and through the reporter it becomes second hand, so we can't be sure he's really that stupid. Sounds like it though.

you should go and re read that thread for comprehension, sir.

I DID ask for clarification of what you meant by diagnostics:

you ignored that question, and in your next reply in the thread, your 3rd sentence says:
and the last sentence of that post:

clodfobble has you sussed quite nicely. You can refuse to hear it, and harp on the fact that I said Fuck, and she said Suck.... But YOU are the one who has failed to communicate. YOU will not be hired by me if I am a customer. YOUR family will go hungry.

take the advice. learn to deal with humans instead of deriding them.

Although I've been enjoying the thread drift ...

Orly...

I wrecked a car because I stepped on the accelerator instead of the brake...BUT I HAD NO MISCONCEPTIONS OF WHAT HAD TRANSPIRED. I dont get how these people can claim otherwise.

They're stooo-pit.

I'm sure she knows what actually happened, but she was hoping to not get blamed for wrecking her boss's car.

Me too -- first accident I ever had. I was reversing out of a parking spot and hit the wrong pedal.

This was during Thanksgiving. I had gotten my license over the summer, and hadn't driven at all in 4 months. :right:

Driving her boss's car, she was probably not that familiar with it and the confusion was much more likely.

I have one pair of shoes that have soles slightly wider than the rest of the shoes I own, and when I drive with those, I sometimes have trouble with the pedals on our car.

Toyota waited months to issue '05 steering recall

Link

And the answer is...
..
..
..
Link

I was annoyed when I heard this news report on NPR the other day. They didn't give any numbers at all. They said of all the reported incidents, "some" were cause by driver error. That's not very helpful. Was it 99% or was it more like 5%? You leave the report thinking "Well, that's that. It was the drivers' fault." When really you can't make any such statement without the numbers. "Some" is not a number. This article basically says nothing at all.

Of course "throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't engaged" is an accurate description of the symptom. If the computer is incorrectly deciding that the user wants to slam the gas, then it might dutifully write that incorrect data in the recorder.

It depends on how separate the sensors and logic for the recorder are from the sensors and logic for the controls.

NHTSA investigation concluded that 74 out of 75 cases were due to driver error. The one remaining case was due to a faulty floor mat. ZERO percent were due to a faulty accelerator system. Heard on the Mark Levin show, no link.

Link or it never happened :3_eyes:

When are you folks going to learn that NPR is part of the problem? They want Toyota to fail so Obama Motors won't look as bad as it is.

I was annoyed with NPR because they sounded like a subsidiary of Toyota. Their report sounded like it was written by Toyota's marketing department. It had no details and just spin.

LJ, you know full well Tw doesn't know any better, never did, and has apparently been that way since birth, if not since the zygote stage. His posts tell us people skills are as much a lifelong mystery to Tw as they are to Radar. I imagine that has a good deal to do with why he is no longer employed at GM, and is directly why he is single.

This may be turning into a roshak test of government and/or the Toyota Corp.
At least attorneys will be living off of it for years to come...

NY Times article

Early U.S. Tests Find No Toyota Flaw in Electronics
By NICK BUNKLEY
Published: August 10, 2010

I have had two Toyotas in my immediate family for a few years now, including the one my dau crashed and the new one I bought her to replace it. We all love them and have not had a single mechanical issue with any of them. I think we will stay with Toyota for the years to come. Even with the floor mat issue I never took mine in for the recall. If you look at how they are designed there is no way in hell that it could make the accelerator stick. Bla, I think it was a big to do about nothing.

Rorschach test?

You're right... just one of my recurring senior moments :o

Merc, take your Toyota and press both the gas and the brake at the same time. Bet it stops.

But Bruce - Toyota mgmt just said they were modifying the design so that when you depress them both the car stops .... What friggin car doesn't stop when you do that?

Since there really was no problem to begin with, the "solution" doesn't need to be "designed" either.

Does that make sense to you, Flint. There seems to be a whole ton of WTF in the last few weeks about this.

Of course it makes sense, it's the cost of public perception. Fool 'em into trusting you.

I was wondering if many companies use the same computers.

Hello! It doesn't fucking matter, the brakes will stop the car.

The article I read made it seem as though that wasn't true - hence my WTF comment.

I know that emergency brakes wouldn't stop any of the cars I've had when the gas pedal is down, but I haven't tried (and wouldn't try) the regular brakes.

Yeah, I've driven several blocks with the parking brake on, on more occasions than I care to admit.

My husband does that all the time and I panic every single time. It just feels like we are all going to explode instantaneously.

Oh, well, see that's how I feel every day starting first thing in the morning, that must be why I never notice. :)

They haven't since the stopped calling them "Emergency" brakes, and started calling the "Parking" brakes, many years ago.
But unless the normal brakes are very fucked up, they will overpower the driveline. That's how drag racers with automatic transmissions get a jump start, it's called power braking.

My supercharged '57 Chevy has a Line-Loc. I push on the brakes then hold a button on the shifter handle. When I release the brakes a solenoid keeps only the front brakes locked, and I can spin the rear tires all day long... the car won't move. Oh, and those front brakes are way smaller than anything on the road today.