(sits back in rocking chair, smoking pipe):

This reminds me of an old job application I once perused, back in my days with the country club.

Under "what job did you like the least and why" the kid replied "McDonalds. I didn't like the greasy environment."

Under "what was your favorite job" he wrote "McDonalds."

A cow orker, a funny young lady, said, while nodding her head knowingly "hmmmm, he really DOES like the greasy environment."

My point? Do you love or hate the Catholic Church? Despite your protestations that you have your own problems with it, you have NEVER jumped higher off the fence in your assertion that we should just stop talking about it. I'm not even saying you SHOULD love or hate it, but why can't anyone else talk about it? It's what THIS thread is about.

The whole "hush hush" you seem to advocate sounds like...EGAD...what this thread is about!

You are employing your *ahem* classic Classic debate style.
I didn't say this. I didn't say that. Cite it please. Verbatim.

I mean all this in the best of ways, of course.

Do you think it is more common in the C, or equally as common in all walks of life?

I don't think its an issue specific to the CC - aside from that I don't know.
Sadly, I think its probably more common in other religious organizations as was mentioned a few pages back by Squirrel.
As far as it happening in other organizations, I don't think they have the structural design for it to be as much of an issue.

neither

I never said we should stop talking about it - N.E.V.E.R.
I never said you couldn't. 0 fer 3
WTF are you talking about?
Which proved my point - you cannot because I never said it.

:right:

You, my kind sir, have outdone even yourself. :applause:

;)

Classicman, is being his classic self.

Jebus, it boggles my mind.

what's that - reality?

So it does happen in other organizations, but you're not certain whether it happens more in the CC than in, say, Hebrew school. But more likely in all religious organizations than in all non-religious such as camp leaders and sports coaches, band instructors etc.

Buuurrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnn. :D

I actually almost changed my user title this week to "now with an even more tenuous grasp on reality" but I couldn't decide between using "reality" or "sanity."

Correct.

We know it happens/has happened in many organizations - schools, scouts, sports... I don't think it happens in "all" of anything.

It happens in any organization with a power structure that has a vested interest in covering it up, and a membership base too 'loyal' to walk away after the betrayal.

It'll be interesting to see how loyal American Catholics really are. My sampling to date suggests that the RCC is in for a very long, bumpy and ugly ride.

Most are not loyal at all. The churches are closing left and right.

I've kind of lost track of the point of this thread. Was there a point?

I'm getting really very frustrated at the vitriol against the Catholic Church. Yes, it happened, and it's horrible, and I'm glad it's been brought to light. But . . .

I believe that the percentage of people victimized by religious is minuscule compared to the young people that are being abused every day by their parents, relatives, stepparents, friends of their parents, by foster parents and the foster system. Yet there is no corresponding outcry against parents; no demand to overhaul the foster care system, no widescale lawsuits against the state. Why? Because we're all too busy pointing fingers at the convenient, easy to hate, churches. And you can't sue states anyway, because they have immunity.

I say, get to the root of the problem in our society through openness and education. People can be indignent and righteous all they want by pointing fingers, but this is a wider problem, and the wider problem is not being addressed, because people don't want to believe this is happening in their backyard, in their homes, in their neighborhood, to their own loved ones.

pfagh!

Like the Dallas Cowboys.
But that would mean that Americans would have to have a health, mature perspective on sex, and ALL churches are against that.

which is why I don't like organized religion much

thank you.

But especially the Roman Catholic Church:stickpoke:comfort:J/K

I disagree. People who work in schools or with children are now required to have a criminal background and child abuse check thru their state police. People talk to their kids now, not just about 'stranger danger' but about who's allowed to touch their bodies and where and why. People ARE willing to believe this shit happens, and they are more involved with their kid's lives because of it. That's why kids are involved in so many activities these days, often with their parents involved right there with them. That's why kids have play dates instead of just roaming wild in the streets.

The foster care system? You're going to compare that to a church? Odd, but... I do see the failures of the foster care system brought to light on the news frequently, as they should be. I don't see people saying things like "I'm a good social worker" like it makes them a better person with a stronger moral compass than those they are comparing themselves to.

As a recovered Catholic I'll say that, reprehensible as it is, condoning kid boinking is among the least of the church's transgressions.

I suppose you say that for effect, but I think you should reconsider. How on earth could condoning kid boinking be low on ANY list of transgressions.

how many things are worse?

Not for effect and I will work on a short catalog of the church's major transgressions throughout history. But to whet your appetite, head on back to the inquisition or read up on the case of
Peter Stumpp:
There's plenty more where that came from, and it was all duplicity in service of cementing power under the guise holiness. The church has battled science and reason because frightened people are much easier to manipulate and control. Can you imagine what things would be like if people still believed in witches and werewolves?

it would be nice to think that the wider problem of sexual misconduct with minors is being addressed adequately in our society. Sadly, I know from personal, direct experience, it is not. Not enough, anyway.

Then there's the charming story of The Nuns of Loudun Another political power play resulting in torture, madness, death. Ken Russel's film, The Devils is based on the story.

still..... condoning pedophilia in this day and age is RIGHT THE FUCK UP THERE

OK, I get your point, cheating old ladies out of their pensions by fixing bingo games is probably among the least, and yes the pedo thing is right up there, but I think I meant among the things right up there, it's not at the top of the top, well, maybe it is really fucked up to try to compare anything in the top of the list.

The whole thing is fucked up.

gotta be in the top on anyone's list

we're here:

:: points at his forehead...then at yours, then back at his, then back at yours::




if I make a smile for this....would you vote for it?

Philadelphia.

Pedophilia.

See what I mean?

One of my heroes, Derek Jarman, was the Set Designer for that film.
When I read his biography I cry at the end. Even though I (obviously!) know how it ends.
Great talent, taken too soon.

Anyway, as you were.

They don't?

Nah, they're all about the wampires now. Everywhere you look are wampires. Where is the outrage?

Yeah - guys that come back from the dead. What hogwash!

Probably coming back to steal our healthcare. Selfish freakface wampires.

Jesus was a eripmav - he came back from the dead and made everyone drink his blood.

so THAT's what a reverse Vampire is

.....and a reverse cowboy?

!aaaaaheeeeeeY

i think she meant reverse cowgirl!

That's what I had pictured anyway.

I did mean a reverse Cowgirl! lol

Maybe shel can tell us what a reverse cowboy is? :P

Physically impossible or downright uncomfortable to say the least!

Retires to search somewhat more arcane corners of the Interweb.

I doubt sheldon would find it uncomfortable :P

I was really enjoying my image of Dana doing a reverse cowgirl for a minute there...

Well...I'd have hoped for more than a bloody minute!

The image of Shel and the reverse cowboy pretty much quashed it for me.

A bloody minute?

From the Washington Post of 18 April 2010:

Maybe because some of the dissatisfied have left the church.

Beebe Medical Center heard allegations about Dr. Earl Bradley 14 years ago
Facing 18 lawsuits in case, hospital could go into bankruptcy
Link

Link
from the video link:
At what cost? Was this part of the decision that was made not to report this A-hole?

When a nurse complains about a Doctor, she better have a good case with corroborating witnesses or evidence. If not, they'll clear the Doctor, because they have no way of knowing her motivation. Not the least of which is Doctors (caution, broad brush) tend to be self-centered/condescending when it comes to the help.

You know, I was thinking... the righteous indignation about children I see today, either didn't exist or was at least much less apparent years ago. I mean on a community/national level. These days you can't look at a kid sideways without a lynch mob forming. Whereas years ago, if the kid wasn't physically injured, people not immediately involved would be more like, tsk tsk, that's a shame, what's for supper? The emotional well being of other peoples kids, and sometimes their own, was not a big concern. Maybe that's why the Catholic Church was so successful at covering up these incidents.

Not to mention that there used to be a default position within society of disbelieving children when they spoke up about abuse of this kind.

"Righteous indignation" and "lynch mob" both sound very negative, while "these incidents" not so much.
That jumps right out at me.

They has a plan, or maybe it's a how-to manual:

I can't think of a better way to describe public reaction to any reports, even alleged. I've seen it right here on this board, calls for lynching, torture, sexual mutilation, etc.

Just when you thought the thread was done.

Catholic League: Not All Gay Sex is Abusive

The entire post:

Would you say it's abuse for a 52 year old to have "consensual" sex with a 17 year old? Never mind gay sex, never mind priest sex. The Catholic League is twisting like a pretzel here, trying to make everything OK. It's so much crap, it's practically entertaining.

Not to mention the Catholic church thinks sex outside of marriage or for anything other than procreation is wrong. So yeah, they can leave out the genders and the ages and whatever else they want, they're waffling on their face! (which is probably a lot like pancakes on your face.)

well, that's what the SNAP people have wanted all along. Maybe they'll shut up now.

I don't think Bruce is supportive of that view, and I do think it's an accurate description of values previously held.

I personally knew two girls abused as children. One was called back in her late teens or twenties to give evidence about a school caretaker (janitor) who exposed himself to her and was on trial for more serious abuses with other young girls. She reported the incident in the '70s and the reaction was very much, "There, there, no harm done." The report was filed, which is why she was tracked down later.

The second was physically abused and again, she reported it. Not to the police in her case - she was in care and reported it to the people higher up in the facility. No-one believed her. It was only a family member who heard gossip years later that made any of her family take it seriously. She was simply seen as being "disturbed" because of her background and the reasons she was in care in the first place. She had nothing like a criminal trial or conviction to give her closure, but at least in the end her family accepted what had happened. This was in the late '60s.