well, she hasn't said anything substantial or even looked at me in a day and a half now. that would be the time when i let her know that i've gotten rid of all the alcohol in the house (including my favorite bottle of scotch :neutral: ) and that we will not be bringing anymore alcohol in. i am well aware that she can drink when she is not around me and this doesn't solve anything but i think was a fairly symbolic slap across the face and notice that some of this crap is over - right here and now.

she gets to make her choices on her own. even the ones that concern my future, but i control my thoughts, emotions, actions, and the events that happen around my son. end of story.

Gwen, grant me...

The serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can, and
The wisdom to know the difference.

Interesting, but possibly important move.

Good luck with that, and with everything else.

I'm still not sure what got bent in her head, but you've offered more than the wake-up call.

Big hugs, buddy.

Stand strong Look out !!!!!

i sent her flowers and a nice "pick me up" note this morning. she just called to say "thanks. that was unnecessary. our marriage is over, i want a divorce." she says she isn't willing to see if things can work out because she just doesn't want them to.

Just walk away at this point.

i hear you RL, but call me a glutton for punishment - walking away isn't in my make up. i love her. good,bad,ugly. i love her. there is something seriously wrong with her at this point and she either can't or won't see it. i will continue to wake up every morning and love her the best way i know how. i will be the best husband, friend, lover (and father) i know how to be. she can walk out at any point and i can't control that - but i will not walk away. i guess i'm just too damn stupid.

Sometimes you need to walk away. Love will not conquer all. Walking (not running) takes balls. Sometimes its the best thing for everyone. Gets it real. Its not weakness, sometimes its just what is needed. She has made her call. She wants to be alone. The best husband, friend, lover, would honor those clear wishes and not play these weak games. The kid, however is yours to protect and ensure that you are not walking away from him. I say take him (your family) with you. Give her the space she seems so desparate for. Force her hand. Be the strong one, the adult.

Note: take with grain of sand- I'm just making it up as I go. Makes me mad, though. I'd lawyer up, protect the kid and wish her the best with her emotional journey.

Lookout, my heart aches for you. I am so sorry you are experiencing this.

Don't be a glutton for punishment. Refuse to do that. It is not good for your son and it's certainly not good for you. You can walk away but let her know that you are open to communicate but please don't do this to yourself. I fear if you don't back off she will escalate this ugly behavior until it's simply out of control.

Having had a mentally diseased stepmother, I don't buy these assessments. I am quite convinced by now that your wife has a chemical imbalance of some sort, lookout, be it nature- or substance-induced. Her behavior is very different from the millions of women who leave their husbands every day. She is still in the house, you are still having sex, there are still inexplicable "good days"--and given all that, her bad days are just too venemous to be genuine. Every time you post it reminds me more of my stepmother (who was bipolar, back when they still called it manic depression. She took large amounts of Lithium, and even then, once a month or so she would start screaming about how much she hated us all and throwing things at us. We would leave the house, she would pass out for about 12 hours, and when we came back, she'd be startingly fine.)

For what it's worth, I strongly agree with your move to get the alcohol out. My stepmother's condition would get much more frequent and unpredictable when she would occasionally decide to step off the wagon for a few weeks.

I am not assessing anyone via the cellar via second hand information. I am simply responding to what lookout has posted and trying to be supportive in my flawed way. He will do whatever he wishes which is exactly how it should be. No one can know what is going on with Mrs. Lookout via this medium. Her husband doesn't know! It's ridiculous. From here on out, lookout, just know that I'm thinking of you and wishing you the best.

I wasn't meaning to accuse you of anything, Bri. Sorry if it sounded that way. I just meant that my instinct is that leaving her is the least effective thing he can do--that now is the time to be proving to her that he will hold on tighter than ever, right when she's at her peak of claiming to refuse it--and I just found it interesting that so many people interpreted her behavior the opposite way.

i interpret her escalating bad behavior over the last month and a half as a way of trying to push me away. looking for my buttons. trying to get me to throw in the towel. in her entire life she has never had anyone who genuinely loved her without condition and without limit. not even her parents.

i believe that she does have a chemical imbalance or something of the sort, but i am no expert. i know that she has some extremely deep emotional problems flaring up. i do not know if we will make it through this, but i do know that if i do what she expects and what she is expressing that she wants - for me to give up and agree to a divorce, then i will have proven that i am just like all the people she so desperately has fought to impress and win love from her whole life.

if we have a chance at making it through this, i have to show her that i find REAL value in her. not for what she does for me, or the things she has achieved, but for who she is. if i walk away she has no incentive, catalyst, "oppressor" to get her to deal with the real issues. she needs professional help. i cannot force her into proper health, but i can love her unconditionally and encourage her.

if it all fails and she refuses to get help, what have i lost? nothing. sure, a few days/weeks/months. but what have i really lost? the same thing i will have lost if i walk away right now - the woman that i love. i know that reading through this thread she sounds like a miserable POS that i should be glad to be rid of - but that isn't all there is to her.

if i walk away now, i will have lost something else that i value. a piece of me. the part of me that has always promised to love her, care for her, and help her without condition.

she may forsake her promises and walk away. if she does, sooner or later her demons will rise again and she will have to deal with the consequences. i will not break my promises to her, or myself.

***
and Bri, i understand what you were saying and didn't take it the wrong way. thanks for your support.

Maybe you two should go to Paris for a week. May or may not fix things - and I wouldn't go with the expectation that it will be cathartic - but sometimes the house can get a little claustraphobic when the relationship is not going well.

Somehow, I just think you need to do something to shake things up a bit. If for nothing else, just to break the pattern.

Clod didn't say you were wrong, only that she has a different opinion. I don't think anyone took your post as anything other than the grasping at straws attempt at support we are all offering.

our travel schedule last year included New Orleans, San Diego, Las Vegas, Flagstaff, Mexico (multiple times), 2 cruises, spain, italy, and france. yesterday she let me know that those would have been fun with someone she loved. 10 minutes later she apologized and was the girl i walked through Rome with. Today she says that she has never loved me.

oh, yeah, our itinerary for '06 was Disney, San Diego, Vegas, West Indies, Virgin Islands, Cabo San Lucas, another cruise, and strangely enough... a week in Paris.

i don't think that being stuck at home is the real problem.

Actually, I think Bri has a good point. Its pretty hard to diagnose someone third hand via the Internet, and the two people here most qualified to make a real diagnosis have been wise enough not to.

I've thrown out some ideas trying to be helpful, Lookout, but you need the advise of a professional in 3D land. From what you describe, you are currently the only actual grown-up in the scenario. Good thing for your son that he has you. Please don't let anything change that and good luck whatever you ultimately decide to do!

Interesting. Usually bipolars drink a lot because it smooths out the highs and lows they experience. Of course anybody can get really sloshed, which is what Mrs. lookout could be doing.

The others are right that you can't diagnose over this medium but it would be wise to note if her moods are cycling faster or slower when she doesn't have access to alcohol.

she seems to be cycling slower but going more deeply negative and her highs aren't as high since she isn't drinking - only 3 days at this point.

If you're having relationship problems at home, they remain with you on the road.

Having them in a country where relatively few people speak English has the potential to magnify rather than reduce the problems.

Can you be sure she isn't drinking? I mean you can't watch her all the time, but would you know if she did drink via signs?

There are many different types of bipolar disorder and sometimes they can be combined with other issues. In short you need a professional diagnosis and even then who knows if it's really BPD.

This would certainly fit especially since BPD is more common in women and seems to be a genetic thing. I'm no shrink but nobody here can tell me there isn't something off-kilter in her head. That quote of yours is the key to all this from where I sit (in a cushy blue chair).

Is there no way to let her out of the cage for a while, let her see the wide world can be pretty sucky, and reel her back in wiser?

very very low likelihood that she will come back. she is a very attractive, successful woman with an outgoing personality. if she is out on the prowl, the "i can have him anytime i want guy", isn't likely to entice her.

i'm pretty down right now. i deserve to have someone love me. i firmly believe she has a chemical problem, but she is convinced she doesn't so there isn't really anything i can do.

You are damn right! Don't forget that.

Well shit, if you think the court would hand her the kid then you have an obligation to raise the issue she is unfit unless she gets evaluated.

other than me complaining to you all, there is no documented (or documentable) evidence of her being unfit. she has never had legal problems,etc.

Find out what her sister was diagnosed with and if any others in the family had similar problems. That could be enough to get the ball rolling if an objection was raised in court. If it comes to that (and I hope it doesn't) what have you got to lose?

Well, Lookout, you have this entire thread which has been going on since December 9th. You have documentation of your bewilderment and grief over Mrs. L's actions. You have documentation of drinking episodes. You have all our concerned replies. I never thought stuff like this had much meaning, but when I posted on my internet support group about some tricks the ax murderer was playing, I was told to print out my post and the replies and show it all to the authorities. The authorities actually gave it all consideration, much to my surprise. I would again suggest that you make an appointment to see a professional, even if Mrs. L won't go. You will be able to document your concern about her actions and also show any court that you were trying to work things through and behave in a responsible fashion.

You DO deserve to be with a woman who loves you, dammit!

divorce. :sniff: :(

now on to custody, property, and money arguments.

I am so very sorry, lookout.

No one can ever say you didn't give it everything you had and more. I hope the pain starts to go away sooner rather than later. :(

lawyer up, get legal help to make it a clean and amicable as possible. protect the kid and his sense of security during the change. protect yourself, too. You deserve an equally loving partner and I have no doubt will find better days. I'm sorry you have to go through this heartbreak, but it sounds like you do.

Very, very sorry, Lookout. Please take care of yourself and the boy. It gets better. Then it gets worse again. Eventually it does get behind you and the sun starts to rise again.

My deepest sympathy. :(

We are solidly behind you. Draw down as needed.

Time heals all non-fatal wounds. Problem is healing is like the days getting longer. You've got to get a long way into it before you notice and even then it's not complete yet. Keep busy with work and the kid, doing what you have to do and "don't stop thinking about tomorrow". It helps, it really does. :juggle:

Sorry, man. I don't know what to say, except we're here for you. I haven't posted much, but I have been following this and sending you silent good wishes. Good karma is on your side.

we met with the psychologist today. i had seen her attitude grow more distant all week so it didn't come as a complete surprise but the finality of it still takes my breath away.

she tells the doc that she has made her decision. her final answer. he tries drilling down but she is a brick wall. we spent a couple of hours talking this evening. everything she says when she is just chatting and not talking "divorce stuff" is appropriate from someone who wants to make it work. but then she will stop in her tracks, realize that the walls came down for a bit and she will throw them right back up. so confusing. i told her that i think divorce is the wrong way to go, unnecessary, there is still hope... but i won't fight it anymore. if she has made her decision then she needs to go ahead and do what she says she wants to do.
very emotional afternoon and evening.

then we opened discussions about money. she said i could have all the money from savings. i said "no thanks, i just want half". she pointed out that i'll need money to put down on a new house. i pointed out that nothing was set in stone that she would be keeping our current house, but assuming she did i would want half the equity. her eyes popped as she realized that she may not be able to afford that size of a mortgage to get me the cash. then she said that she, of course, would need to keep the house so our son can have the continuity of living in the same home. it literally tore me apart to see her reaction when i asked if she really thought i was just going to be a weekend dad and leave him with her.

she mentioned that she had consulted a lawyer on monday (the day after i threw out all the alcohol) and he said we didn't have to go to court if we agreed on everything and just used him. i told her it was possible but not likely and i told her that an associate had referred me to a group effort called collaborative divorce. she didn't like the idea because it wasn't hers, but that is probably the route we'll go. she knows i don't care about money, houses, and cars, but i will spend every dime i plan on making in the next five years to make sure that my son has what i feel to be the best possible situation (outside of happy loving parents :( )

on a side note she agreed to undergo a psych eval to investigate the possibility of a chemical or neurological problem - as long as i understand that even if she does have a problem and it can be fixed with medication it doesn't mean we are staying together. :smack: you ever want to just squeeze some sense back into someone who isn't thinking clearly? no matter she has done, or might have done i still love her.

in an emotional moment she said that if we separate she may get out and find out how truly important i was too her and come right back. you don't go into a situiation planning on that. you exhaust all possibilities and then seperate.

ah, what do i know.

At some point, you need to make the difficult but necessary decision to get off the roller coaster. There's two people that need you to stabilize: your son and you.

The sooner you can take ownership of the pain she is causing, the sooner she will cease being in control. If you don't let her make you feel better with her good moods and comforting words then you are similarly not letting her hurt you when she gets cold. It won't hurt any less right away but you'll heal a lot faster because your emotional state won't be linked to hers anymore. Easier to type up than to do, I realize, but necessary nonetheless.

Consult an attorney. Privately. Better to have heavy artillary ready to deploy and not need to use it than to get blindsided with your guard down.

there is a lesson in here somewhere...

never say "i have everything i have ever wanted"

don't give yourself away so completely that someone else has the power to destroy you.

trust may need a new definition.

oh, there are a bunch more, but they are all BS.

a closed off untrusting life isn't worth living. the truth is that love is real. there are people worthy of trust and love. love is still a verb, not a feeling. unfortunately, the person that i have given everything i am, have, and think to over the last 7 years has decided that it is both and because she doesn't have the feeling, the action isn't worth taking.

i am really fighting bitterness and anger this morning. the good news is that they haven't completely consumed me - because i have this overwhelming wall of sorrow, regret, and just plain old sadness rolling over me like waves.

i can barely look at my son without bursting out in tears. how do i tell him that his universe just ended? he is 4. he is old enough to know what life looks like. he is used to it. he is not old enough to understand that sometimes mommies and daddies become selfish and self-destructive. all he is going to understand is that life as he knows it and loves it just ended. how do you make that a non-devastating effect on a 4 year old. old enough to know what is supposed to be, but not old enough to know that sometimes it just doesn't go that way.

Be careful not to project on your son what you think he should feel. Children are much more resilient and accepting than adults, so love him and answer his questions but don’t add your fears to his own.
Good luck, my friend, you’re on your way now. :thumbsup:

My dad died when I was 3. Being fatherless was not a burden as long as Mom didn't say it was. It wasn't the terrible thing it was supposed to be, from my point of view, because it was all I knew. It was normal.

Yeah, don't tell your son that its the end of the world. When I was growing up I had the Momster and then, I had an actual parent who was my Dad. Since my Dad was in the military, I would sometimes be left alone with the Momster for long periods of time. My Dad would take his duty orders in stride (at least when I was around) and this helped. I still blamed the Momster, though, and not the Army for his periodic absences. I figured she wanted the extra cash his hardship pay brought in, and I was actually right. My Dad never said this to me, though. Even when we had to be apart he wrote me almost daily, and I clung to the life line he offered by being the one loving parent in my life. You can do the same for your boy. Fight like a tiger for at least joint custody. Use your anger in a constructive way to help you get past the pain. Anger channeled appropriately can help you fight for what's best for you and your son, rather than giving way to sorrow.

And yes, somewhere out there is a woman who is just going to be delighted to have both you and your son in her life and give you the love you both deserve. Mark my words.

Mari, you're probably right. After all he's not that bad looking ....for a bald guy. :lol:

Sorry to hear about all this dude , but well i see it from a different point of view , Time to go on the proactive defence stratagy !!!

She is the one going Weird in the head ( sorry ) and acting erraticaly ,
She is the one initiationing ALL this ,
If She wants a change then SHE should do the changeing ,
AS in SHE neede to move out , find her self , find her inner child , or what ever, but basicaly find out just what the FUCK has gone wobbly in her head !!!

You need to protect your son , FIRST and FOREMOST !!!!!!!
He NEEDS a STABLE enviroment to grow up in ,
Think about this , she is slipping , if she slips and falls so bad that the dudes with butterfly nets need to come cart her away , well ,, can you imagem trying to explane THAT to your son ???


Just my thoughts on things .

I agree with those who say don't communicate to your son your feeling that it is the end of the world - whatever a kid grows up with is "normal" in their book, and it's best to treat it lightly.
Most of all - DON'T involve your son in ANY WAY in the negotiations/discussions/battles with your wife - EVER. Even if she tries to draw him in, get him on her side or whatever (and that can be very difficult). If she tries that simply stonewall with "That's between your mum and me, and we both want the best for you. Now, let's go play ball (or whatever other distraction)". Stay in touch with him whatever else happens - that'll count in the end, more than any explanations of how crazy his mum is ...

Take the trip money, call in the pros, and sit back and try to make good decisions based on their advice and experience. Don't bluff, just decide what is equitable in your mind, and then strive to get that...be it house, cars, cash, kids...whatever.

You cannot buy a mended heart, Lookout, but you can buy the best and most equitable settlement. A lawyer can tell you the real deal on her fitness as a parent for starters. Since your child's welfare seems to be your highest concern, you definitely need professional counsel.

Sorry, dude. This must be wearing on you severely. I've been there and I know. It helped that we were pretty poor and my ex was willing to let go of just about everything to get out, so I got house and kid. Of course, I also got a lot of budens to carry with that package, but it has worked out for the best. Get thee to a lawyer, and luck and blessings go with you.

It sounds like she didn't think this through clearly if she just thought she'd take the kid and anything else on her terms. You did all you could. I'd have strangled her personally. For not doing anything like that you've shown a lot about yourself :) I hope things work out for you and your kid.

Not to be an agitator but has anybody ever had a real mental evaluation? I haven't. I'm just curious if it's the kind of thing you could bluff your way through.

Calling Dr Wolf, calling Dr Wolf....question in post #167. ;)

the counselor we were seeing is a psychologist. he said that from what he has seen there is a very real possibility of a chemical or neurological problem, BUT if she goes in for a psych eval and consistantly plays the "i'm fine" angle, most likely nothing will be found unless it is a huge chemical problem with flashing neon lights.

I just got here by way of a Fark classified by the Cellar. Just checking things out and I came across this thread and I thought you were my husband for a few seconds there, cause what do you know same thing here. I have everything most women want (I guess) house, 2 cars, not alot of debt, 2 kids and careers. My husband loves me to pieces, I have been existing. I am not in love with my husband, i look at him the way you look at the alarm clock, important item, but you wouldn't exactly shed tears if it broke. I didn't read all the posts, sorry at work, but I just wanted to comment, and I will go back when i have the time to read more. I told my husband of 6 years that I no longer love him and I wanted a divorce. It was hardest thing I had to do, alot transpired, we are currently in counseling, It helps. So good luck, truly.

Unless you are horrifically miserable, it is absolutely not worth it to leave. Indifference is not a reason for divorce. I dunno if your parents were divorced or not, but I'm telling you, your husband will never really be out of the picture anyway because of your kids, those kids will be very hurt and sad and confused by the whole thing, and you will not suddenly find deep, amazing love just because you are now allowed to look for it.

Welcome to the Cellar, chimmichunga. :)
I’m curious, why did you marry him? Pregnant? Bored? Escaping a bad environment? Everyone else was getting married? You were in love, then? You thought you were in love, then? None of the above?
I’m not alone in wondering what brings a woman/wife/mother to this point.
All too often I hear, “Well, he picks his teeth”, only to find out later when they were engaged she thought him picking his teeth was cute/macho/whatever.

Sometimes it’s nothing more than, life didn’t turn out like I thought it would, life is boring, he’s so predictable I could scream.
I’m sorry if I’m putting you on the spot here, but if you would….if you can….I’d love to get some insight how this happens…..please. :ipray:

I’m also curious how this situation affects you outside the home. You said careers, plural, so I assume you work outside the home. Does this make you more receptive to flirting at work? Have you had an affair? Have you thought about having an affair? Do you live near me? Kidding, just kidding. But I do wonder how this affects your “public deportment”?

welcome. i would certainly welcome your input on these issues. and i'm pretty sure you aren't my wife. if i said "fark" to her, she would just think i'm slurring my words.

Well, I'm not Doc Wolf, but I have had a neuropsychological evaluation. The damn thing took two or three week's worth of different tests at 3 hours a pop. I suppose one might bluff their way through such a thing, but you'd have to be a hell of a lot smarter than I am to pull it off.

I got really fed up with the whole thing somewhere in the middle and challenged my evaluater with "For God's sake, why?"

She explained that all these different tests that seemed pretty much identical to me were psychologists' clever little way of testing the integrity of the patient, along with everything else. She explained a little of how it worked AFTER the testing, but damned if I can remember now what the finer points were.

Anyhow, someone who makes it through one of those pups has excellent health insurance (very time consuming and must be administered by someone specially trained to do it, write up is like 10 pages long!) and probably a reasonable analysis at the end.

Or so it seemed to me.

pffft! i wish. i will be stroking the check for this one. but it is worth it. i would much rather spend the money trying to help my wife and repair my marriage than fighting in court.

eval = $2000 just for the testing portion.

attorney quotes i've received this week = $5-8000.

The only people I know that got really fucked up by parent's divorces were either a: it was a long, bitter thing or b: they were between about 13-18, younger than that, people seem to be ok, myself included (obvious jokes aside).

"Lawyer Man" by Steve Deasy

(If you like this please buy it thank you)

Damn! Sorry to hear that you must pay out of pocket for the thing, Lookout! Yeah, the price of a neuropsych eval would keep a small Mexican village in frijoles for a year!

I don't see how a person could cheat on one, at least. Like, for example: One part is a series of story cards that you have to put in the right order. You could have the story end any number of different ways - there's no obvious "right" answer. And they have you do this giganto, million question personality inventory. Man, that thing sucked! It went on and on and it kept asking the same questions in slightly different ways. If someone has already taken it several times and has a pretty good memory, it might be possible to cheat on it, but I think they count on the exhaustion factor to wear you down. If you're trying to appear to be something you're not, you're bound to slip up on question no. 1,004 or no. 679.

You have to be motivated and co-operative to get through the process. Will your wife really agree to the testing?

I'm sure lookout has a little negotiation leverage, such as: I'll let you have uncontested "y" if you agree to the full psych workup. Or some such variation.

Good luck lookout,

That's what I was hoping: that the test would be long, grueling, and shake out anybody who thought they'd just lie their way through it. I had a very minor one (in comparison) for medical reasons and was very bent out of shape about them asking the same thing over and over again. That was of course what they were testing (confusion). I could have bluffed my way through that but not a test like marichiko took.