From your chart:

That is a lot of different souces of "income" which most people would not include as income. So it sort of scews the results as being less than accurate IMHO.

Feds consider it income, and since the stat is a percentage increase as long as it's comparing the same income ingredients, it doesn't matter what you call it.

Yes, well, the rich would love it if their capital gains did not count as income, even though it most definitely is. I would prefer it if capital gains were taxed more and actual work-related income was taxed much less.

I would agree that capital gains are income.

Well thanks. for that non-whatever it was.

Eh, the more I think about it the more I agree with Lookout's tax idea. I would change it to a small progressive tax then flat rate but the main point is to have a large sales tax. I don't know if he went into this, but I would make the sales tax "progressive" as well. Low sales tax for necessities (food, clothing, etc), higher for entertainment, and extremely high for luxury items.

Somewhere in our bickering I have expressed myself poorly if you think I am making excuses for anyone or believe someone deserves to earn a bajizillion dollars. My main point is that you spend all your energy on the rich and why they don't deserve what they have. I don't really care what they have and I'm not a big fan of the idea of deserving anything anyway. Lots of people deserve to be covered in rainbows and puppy dog kisses but are struck down by cancer. Others only deserve to cry in pain as their colon cancer and flesh eating bacteria race to see which will kill them but they get a bunch of money and a gold watch. That's life and it is what it is.

My problem with your approach is you spend so much time blaming the evil rich guy that you seem to lose sight of what is really hurting the poor. It isn't just a lack of dollars that hurts them. Instead of focusing on taking money from one to give to another, focus on helping those without to get for themselves. You know that whole "give a man a fish and feed him for a day" thing? I'm a big believer in that.

I probably sound narcissistic because I keep bringing up my own life, but that is the only real experience I have lived for myself so I know it to be true. I'm a fairly intelligent guy, but far from the smartest you'll meet. I grew up in a lower income factory family and now I'm middle class white collar. No one gave me anything to lift me from one category to the next and nothing about my character changed by getting a few more dollars. I saw my dad bust his ass for the ever shrinking carrot of a pension. While I respect the way my dad did it I also knew that life was not a viable option for my generation. I decided I needed a college education so I went into the military to pay for it. When I got out I worked multiple jobs and took out loans to finish school. After school I moved from career to career in my quest to gain experience and earn more money. In all honesty I enjoyed none of my jobs but they were necessary to move in the direction I wanted to go. Now I own my company in a fairly profitable industry. I happen to be very good at what I do so I'm well compensated but the truth is I don't actually enjoy what I'm doing now either. I would much rather be a school teacher and soccer coach BUT I had to weigh the options and I decided earning more money in a career I tolerate is more beneficial to my family than earning a teacher's wage in a career I'd love. It is a decision to sacrifice something in exchange for something I value - a life of comfort for my family.

That is what it all comes to for me - decisions and sacrifice. A couple of guys I went to school with I am just in awe of. One of them is a nationally recognized leader in a field he created and is a regular guest to the white house and featured in magazines. He chose to sacrifice a high income to follow a cause he believes in. It just so happens he became quite well known for doing that.

There are other guys I went to school with who are strangely in dead end jobs hovering along the edges of the lower end of working class bitching because they can't catch a break. The most talented guy I know makes $9 an hour and is angry at the world but refuses to accept responsibility for the life he lives. He has been offered jobs as a chef at high end restaurants. He has been asked to join a well known rock band when they needed a bassist but he declined. He had the opportunity to purchase a profitable business with no money out of pocket but said no. He refuses to live anywhere other than where he currently lives even though it is a dying area with no prospect for recovery. He chooses to stay and earn $9 an hour rather than sacrifice his desired location. In my mind he has exactly ZERO right to bitch about being broke. It is his choice.

While that is an extreme example it is the same for nearly everyone. The guy working as the night stocker at a grocery store is not a slave to the store, he has the ability to gain education and experiences and move up into different careers, but he has to decide that is what he wants to do. He has to have a goal. He won't go straight from stocker to CEO but there are no impossible to overcome roadblocks between those two jobs.

I have said that wouldn't be a bad idea. The problem with the way it has been presented, is it would hit the lower income and middle class too much, and it would be much better for wealthier people. It will never ahppen though, because the people at the top would never stand for a high luxury tax on their playthings.

Honestly, I don't see what is so bad about a progressive income tax, without all the loopholes.

because the people who make it don't want to give it to people who don't.

lookout, thank you for explaing your position better to me. I respect what you've done with your life, and you know, after you have all the money you need you could still teach.

I agree and understand that people make choices. The problem I have is that, as the gap grows and grows, and the people at the top make more and more, it leaves less for the average worker, and it makes it a lot more difficult for people who might want to achieve a comfortable living in the middle class but aren't really interested in working all the time and sacrificing other aspects of their life. It used to be a great life, being middle class. You didn't have to slave away for 80 hours a week and sacrifice having a family or a life. (yes, I know you can have a family and still work 80 hours a week, but what kind of family life is that?) You could work a normal 40 hours a week, have plenty of time to spend with your family (or doing other things if you didn't want a family), you could afford really good health care, afford to put some money away in a savings account, and it was available to both blue collar and white collar workers. That has slowly disappeared, and it makes me sad and it pisses me off, the way workers are treated.

I havent seen any data anywhere to support that.

By that I mean, the top taxpayers saying they pay too much.

The people making that claim are not the rich in many (most?) cases, but persons who are ideologically opposed to a progressive tax.

We are having a circular discussion here, again.

Why would you need to have some data saying such a thing by top taxpayers? Such a person would most likely not say such a thing. Well maybe Donald Trump. The problem is that "rich" still has not been defined. And the proposals to raise taxes on the "rich" is not a tax on the "rich" at all but a tax on upper income earners. And it is among those upper income earners that pay the majority of all federal and state income tax among earners. And that is completely an unfair tax. I am not going to change your mind and you have been utterly unable to change mine as your facts are no less biased than mine.

Uh oh....time for a poll!

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/...ew-dauxxca.gif

http://www.gallup.com/poll/117472/Sa...are-Taxes.aspx

Only 19% of persons making over $75,000 say that "upper income people" pay too much.

Polls are worthless statistical data points. Another circular discussion which you cannot support to be false.

More than $75000 must be your "rich"

People can take it for whatever they want. Its not for me or you to decide.