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-   -   Congress has lost its mind... (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=5891)

tw 07-14-2011 10:08 AM
John Boehner appears to be having problems similar to what Gingrich suffered at the hands of Delay, Armey, et al. Gingrich worked out a compromise with Clinton that worked. So they crucified Gingrich. Boehner remembers history. Extremists (ie Cantor) have already made Boehner back out of what was looking like a solution. He remembers what extremists did to Gingrich.

piercehawkeye45 07-14-2011 11:24 AM
It looks like Mitch McConnell's plan has a chance of going through. Fucking politics as usual. It averts a crisis, blows a political punch (at Democrats this time), and doesn't solve anything in the long run... :facepalm:

classicman 07-14-2011 11:55 AM
from your link
Quote:
Better to think of this, not as a negotiation, but a game with two simple rules. Collectively, each player must ensure the debt ceiling goes up. Individually, each player must come out looking better than the other side.
Quote:
this plan is a moral abomination that moves Congress one step closer to a dystopia where government does not govern anything, but instead takes a series of empty symbolic votes they can advertise in their home district for the purpose of being reelected to take more rounds of empty symbolic votes.
Sad, but spot on accurate - IMO.

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gvidas (Post 744560)
This whole debt ceiling debate is asinine brinksmanship. If (when?) they fuck this one up, it's going to end up costing us way, way more. And, naturally, there has been approximately zero discussion of the role military spending plays in the whole situation.

Nate Silver breaks it down: GOP's no-tax stance is outside political mainstream



He goes on to point out that, if the average Republican voter wants to solve the problem with 26-74% split of tax increases to spending cuts, and the average Democrat wants 46-54%, there's more disparity between Republican voters and Republican politicians, who're refusing to settle for anything less than 0% tax increase / 100% spending cuts (26% difference) than between Republican voters and Democrat voters (20% difference.)

Fareed Zakaria put it nicely the other day on Fresh Air. Paraphrasing, this is a financial problem being debated in ideological, almost fanatical terms. In religion, there are absolutes that it is very hard to find a middle ground between: how do you find a fair compromise between Christianity and Islam?

But this is economics, numbers. You can split the difference.
The Dems ran Congress for quite a number of years now. Completely. When they got Obama into office they really ran up the credit cards, raised taxes, and Rhammed unpopular programs through the Congress that have now broken the bank. In the end, regardless of what happens, they will take ownership for the failure of this economy. Republickins have plenty of blood on their hands, but no one will forget, it has been the Demoncrats who have been in control.

glatt 07-15-2011 11:53 AM
Quote:
Republickins have plenty of blood on their hands, but no one will forget, it has been the Demoncrats who have been in control.
The debt was no big deal under Carter and before. Reagan came along and increased military spending and cut taxes, increasing the debt by unprecedented amounts. Bush I continued the path of Reagan, but slowed the growth of it a little. Then Clinton came. He started off with a big debt, but the economy was on fire then, and he ended up with a balanced budget when he left office. Bush II started his term with huge tax cuts followed by two expensive wars and ended up with a big expensive bailout just before he left office. Now Obama is increasing the debt a lot with his continued spending on the wars and the stimulus spending. At the same time Republicans have blocked tax increases.

The debt has been going on for a while and it's not a one party is to blame kind of a deal. In my opinion, the Republicans have contributed more to the debt in my lifetime, but right now it's taking off like crazy under Obama. Something needs to be done and the fair thing is to share the pain equally.

classicman 07-15-2011 11:56 AM
What would happen if we taxed all income at the same rate, regardless of how it was derived?

glatt 07-15-2011 12:04 PM
You, personally, would wind up paying significantly more in taxes. So would I.

piercehawkeye45 07-15-2011 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 744703)
The Dems ran Congress for quite a number of years now. Completely. When they got Obama into office they really ran up the credit cards, raised taxes, and Rhammed unpopular programs through the Congress that have now broken the bank. In the end, regardless of what happens, they will take ownership for the failure of this economy. Republickins have plenty of blood on their hands, but no one will forget, it has been the Demoncrats who have been in control.
Democrats ran congress but Republicans blocked any attempt for a compromise on the budget deal.

Fair&Balanced 07-15-2011 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 744703)
The Dems ran Congress for quite a number of years now. Completely. When they got Obama into office they really ran up the credit cards, raised taxes, and Rhammed unpopular programs through the Congress that have now broken the bank. In the end, regardless of what happens, they will take ownership for the failure of this economy. Republickins have plenty of blood on their hands, but no one will forget, it has been the Demoncrats who have been in control.
Ran up the credit cards? Or increased the deficit each year less than Bush and his $750 billion and rising unfunded Iraq war that was kept off budget so it would not count towards the annual deficit, nearly $1 trillion tax cuts for the wealthy and not offset by spending cuts and a $1/2 trillion medicare prescription drug reform program?

Raises taxes? Which taxes were raised as opposes to middle class and small business tax relief in the stimulus bill?

Unpopular programs? You've been watching too much FOX News.

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 744733)
You've been watching too much FOX News.
Rarely watch it, except for Stossel and occasionally O'Reilly.

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45 (Post 744723)
Democrats ran congress but Republicans blocked any attempt for a compromise on the budget deal.
Congress controls the budget. Not the president. Demoncrats have been in charge of both houses of Congress until last year. So far since Obama has been in office they ran up the credit cards with no plan to pay for it.

Congress has not passed a budget amendment for 27 months. Who was in charge during that time?

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt (Post 744717)
Something needs to be done and the fair thing is to share the pain equally.
I agree. The key word being "equally".

piercehawkeye45 07-15-2011 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 744780)
Congress controls the budget. Not the president. Demoncrats have been in charge of both houses of Congress until last year. So far since Obama has been in office they ran up the credit cards with no plan to pay for it.
And Republicans walked out on a budget deal that was at least a start in the right direction because it involved some tax increases. If Republicans play this intelligently they could come on top, but that seems to be something they haven't been able do as of lately...

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45 (Post 744786)
And Republicans walked out on a budget deal that was at least a start in the right direction because it involved some tax increases. If Republicans play this intelligently they could come on top, but that seems to be something they haven't been able do as of lately...
Agreed.

tw 07-16-2011 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 744781)
I agree. The key word being "equally".
Equally means the richest should be paying more than 15% in taxes. But that reality has been spun into a myth called tax increases. Reality, paying their fair share means no more welfare to the rich. Since the soundbyte myths work, the rich will still get a welfare - taxes at numbers at or below 15%.


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