...start communicating in real time, in person. Go see him, call him, take him for a beer/whatever is legal there.

Not in my fathers house. :headshake

Which is why we will never hit my child. My family is having a hard time with it.

A pentagram is an early Christian symbol. Many flowers and fruits are considered holy because of it. The five wounds of Christ are symbolized by it.

If I've misread the situation, I apologize. I know it is impossible to paint the complete picture with words.

Well put, grant.

Thanks, I'm such a quote whore.

I wouldn't classify myself in those terms, but I do collect aphorisms. I have pages and pages of them. I'm not a specialist, though; I like proverbs, quotes, aphorisms, rhymes, etc. If the content of the passage has personal meaning to me, I collect it. I like the one referenced above. Good one.

I agree, but also contend that there are inherent differences in each child also.

I let a bit of frustration at my brother's lack of caring for anything but himself cloud my judgement there. I view him as a total loser, and most I know who have met us both agree. There is bad blood there and I apologise for not being more unbiased(?)

Carry on.

I'm in almost the exact same situation, LabRat. Everyone who has ever met my brother and me has marveled that the same parents could have somehow raised both of us. It's actually made me a little terrified that one or more of my children will manage to turn out like him despite our best efforts.

People say the same about my parents raising me... I am opposite from both of them, in different ways.

While we're talking about relative differences --

My brother and I are two sides of a coin. He's the face and I'm the tail.

I look like my father, he looks like my mother. I act like my mother, he acts like my father. He's outgoing, I'm not; he's a creature of outward focus, I'm a creature of inward focus.

We have so much shared life context that we can talk for hours, and you won't understand most of it.

Even though we're 6 years different in age we're as close as twins.

A few events that really changed me were when my parents were divorced when I was almost 11. One day I came home from school and half of my family's belongings were gone. My mother had a moving company come in that day and take all of her stuff, including the bed and our TV. I remember standing in the kitchen and crying with my father for reasons I didn't fully understand at the time. As the next six months passed and I had to explain what happened to my younger cousins and inquiring minds at school I only began to understand why.

The second most serious change in my life occurred a few years later when my older brother punched me in the nose for the first time. When he joined the Marines a year and a half ago I can't say I was surprised. He used me to learn how to inflict pain upon others so it's the perfect calling for him. I wish him luck.

The third was on September 11th. All of my remaining innocence was lost that morning when in first period physics the teacher in the room next door came in and told us to turn on the radio. For the rest of the day in my three remaining classes all we did was listen to the conflicting newsreports that were mostly conjecture.

The fourth was on a trip to Switzerland a year later when a table of Swiss people my age grilled me on my political stance about the United States' foreign policy, especially regarding Afghanistan, our relations with Israel and many other subjects. They were more educated about the U.S. than I was. I had no answer to almost all of their questions; it was the most embarassing experience of my life and even to this day I wish I've done more to educate myself on our policies. Needless to say, I've learned quite a bit from reading some of the posts on this forum.

Now that that's off my chest, I really like these forums. Probably not the place to say it as Ibram will probably remark, but I don't care. I've enjoyed myself thus far.

Oh... I have no memory of most of my childhood.

My heart goes out to Richlevy and Elspode. I understand the heartache involved for wanting for them so much. It is a grieving process.

I don't think this is the heart ache that changed me because my internal hope always sees me through.

I think anyone that has been in an abusive relationship in person or on the internet can say it must be the most seriously negative thing to happen.

I am grieving again over the same loss as I have grieved before. With a difference, now.

For those who have been involved with this thread, The Boy (now 24 years old) moved from his baby-mama's (which was never confirmed) to Texas, to stay with the family that raised him the first 7 years. 2 years later, he called me and asked me to come home. After much discussion, I said he could come home and stay rent free for 2 months, then if he chose to stay in my home he'd have to either go to college or pay rent. He came home, we got along great. After flirting with the idea of dating Miss Thang again, met a new girl, and they have since gotten married.

The Boy has ever been the Troll. He says things just to get a rise out of them. If he knows you, he knows where to hit you to hurt you the most. He's a sniper. He posted some trollish shit on his FB and I took the bait, then realized it was Trolling and decided that before the situation escalated out of control I should just unfriend him to prevent more drama. My mistake was posting a note to my FB about why I defriended him, when I should have left it the hell alone. He saw it, and lost his fucking mind. I got an extremely shitty letter filled with straight out lies, disrespect and sniping. He ended it by disowning me, my mother, my sister and his cousins. I haven't spoken to him since Sep 12. Email, phone or otherwise. I have no intention of ever speaking to him again. Ever. His wife told my mother that even if he and I reconciled, SHE would tell any children they may have that their grandmother died before they were born, and I would surely never see them. This is not a decision I made lightly. And I noticed that once I excised him from my life, the majority of my personal drama went away. It was the calm before the storm.

Two nights ago he shows up at my home with two police reports, dated 1995 about Travis. He says that Raven, the woman who has the website with Travis' picture on it, contacted him through Shaun's FB page and she knows my name, the names of my children, and God knows what else. The Boy described her as Travis' "girlfriend", and said that she has printed pictures of his (the Boy's) wedding and given them to Travis. The Boy did not make his FB private until after he had disowned me, so I wouldn't be able to see his FB stuff.

He says he is in contact with Raven now, and she emailed him these police reports, and he knew I'd wanted them since the event took place. He said he has more at his home and could bring them over if I wanted. I told him I'd think about it, I thanked him for bringing them over. He left.

I had been told by the detectives that Travis had lured Steve away, that Travis had made hundreds of little cuts all over Steve's body and put salt and lemon juice ont he wounds. That Travis had cut Steve's leg off at the knee and he bled to death. That was the story I had heard and believed for a little under 20 years now.

That wasn't the whole story.

I did not get the warning from my son that I am about to give you. The following link is to a page of the police report he gave me, last names redacted (R= Travis' cellmate relating what Travis told them. P = Travis, and N = Steve SD=Travis' wife at the time). It is graphic, it is disturbing, and it has ripped open wide a wound I thought long healed. You will not be able to un-read this and page2.

I haven't slept more than a few hours at a time since. I burst into tears at the slightest thing. I'm a mess. I don't know what to do. I mean, there's nothing I *can* do, but I think I'm starting to really go batshit crazy. Like, time to visit Wolf at work crazy. How do I assimilate this information into the grieving I've already done? My husband keeps saying that Steve didn't die twice, that the only thing that's changed is how it happened, and logically, I get that. Emotionally, I'm going to need a padded room. Preferably one that doesn't smell like urine or vomet. That'd be great, thanks.

I find it hard to believe a person could remain conscious, no less quiet, through all that. You're husband is right, nothing has changed, the past never does. Get some help, pro help.

Tried that. More than twice, with different therapists just to make sure I didn't get a crappy one. Nothing happened. It's not that I'm not facing my issues. I know what they are, and I'm aware they are there and I've been given grief and victims' counseling as well. As I said, I was doing really well (considering) with all of this until this new stuff came out.

Not until you are ready to let go of the drama. Its a choice.

Right. I guess PTSD is a choice as well, then right? Because people who've lived with incredible traumas in their lives can just choose to let go of the drama. You should write a book. Make millions. "How to let go of the drama: a veteran's guide". You've single-handedly cured millions of suffering people with that astounding insight. Choose to let go of the drama. Why hasn't anyone mentioned this to me sooner? Astonishing.

She's right, therapists, drugs, counseling, they are all designed to help you let go. But in the end that's what has to happen, we both know that.

What am I supposed to let go of, exactly?
That he's dead? I've gone through that process already. Again, I was fine Tuesday morning. I don't think about him every day, I don't google the event or the people any more, I don't keep his picture in my wallet or his obituary at my desk. I moved on.
That he was tortured? I came to terms with the story I was told back in 95. This is new information that I'm really struggling to deal with.
That it was my ex-husband that did that sick shit? I've even gotten over all of that, and I thank my God that I wasn't involved with that and that I wasn't hurt more badly than I endured while I was with him. I'm ok with all of that.

My problem now is that I have these images in my head of the shit Travis did to him and I can't get them out of my head. I lay down to sleep and they play over and over, and get embellished in my vivid fucking imagination that I can't turn off.

What I'm extracting from your posts is that you're saying that if this new information bothers me, I haven't "let go" of his death. So then, that means if I've moved on with my life you're saying it shouldn't bother me in the slightest? Really? Because the other three people in my Real Life (as opposed to virtual life here) who've read that account say it's the single most disturbing thing they've ever read, and the fact that both of the people involved were people I knew and loved makes it that much worse.

So I don't think I'm too off base to be more than a little freaked out right about now, even having moved on and "let go".

Or you know, maybe we have different definitions of "let go".

"Let go" indeed.

Then I guess you'll just have to figure it out on your own.

Onyx, I'll admit up front that I didn't read the links, because if it's worse than cuts with lemon juice and cutting off a leg to bleed to death, then I don't want to read it.

I know you're in a painful place, so please don't think I'm judging you for your reaction to this. But it seems pretty cut and dried from here: what you need to do (that is, turn off the nonstop images of suffering in your mind) is something you can't seem to do. No one is saying it's wrong or unreasonable for you to be unable to do that right now, but the fact remains that it's what would help you feel better, and what you want to have happen. You've got to find a way to do it--but that doesn't mean you have to magically flip that switch on your own.

You need to seek professional help. Anyone who had gone through what you've gone through would. You are insulted at the suggestion that you should choose to get over it--yet that is exactly what you are attempting to do, when you avoid seeking professional help. If therapy alone hasn't helped in the past, perhaps it's time for a combination of therapy and medication, at least until you are past this fresh grief. Like you say, it's not drama, it's PTSD. And people with PTSD need professional help.

^wise she is.

finding the right therapist can be a lifetime job. Keep trying until you find the one that works for you.

Onxy, I know about letting go. And I know how hard it is to do. It does not come naturally or easy...it has to be learned. But the learning doesn't happen unless you ask for it. And then the process itself is tough. It seems so cold and loney and scary. But the benefits are worth the struggle.

I would be worried about the son and the high dysfunction that keeps this coming back to you.

You can't change the past but you can change the relationship with your son. You can try to change the future. In a positive way, be more real than the website lady and the man behind bars.

You're right. How silly of me to expect otherwise.

I have changed it. I am no longer speaking to him. He told me before his wedding to fuck off and i did the whole forgiveness and understanding thing but i also told him that if it happened again that it wasnt going to end the same way. He purposely told me in the letter to fuck off again precisely for that reason. He's 24 years old now and i no longer have to deal with his bullshit. The time between sep 12 and last week was the most drama free in years. I dont like drama, despite the shit thst keeps happening. He disowned me and truly, at least for now, i'm better off because of it. Hebrought that shit over to me unannounced and more importantly, didnt prepare me for what i was about to read. He can fuck off as far as i'm concerned. How's THAT for letting go?

Im on my itouch so i cant quote n stuff like i want to.

I have tried therapy. I have tried medication. I'm not i sulted at the suggestion of therapy or professional help, but i'm telling y'all it doesnt work. I've been fucking with therapists heads since i was 9 years old. Now after all these psycjology classes, i know what they will twll me. I know the strategies. I know what to say to get exactly the medication i want. I get that professional help works for most people, but im not most people.

And you're right, clod, i know i need to get over this and bruce is right as well, i need to figure it out on my own. I also am sorry for going off on you, pico, but really, telling me its a simple matter of choice was exactly the wrong thing to say to me, like that, at the time, whether right wrong or indifferent. I appreciate the effort, though (weak smile).

I dont think there is a right answer here. This isnt something that anton should have to deal with in the first damn place. I've gottem some sleep finally and i start my third to last semester of college for my aa tomorrow. I have three classes that are going to need quite a bit of my attention so o'll have no time to go moaning about stuff that happened 20 years ago. Art history in particular is going to kick my ass, i think.

Thanks to everyone for the input, even if I am a bitch about it. Thanks for putting up with me. Sorry for the continued drama.