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-   -   The Obamanation (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=19310)

Undertoad 09-20-2009 10:45 PM
Yes and I'm explaining to you why anti-Muslim rhetoric is not a factor, why that's a fantasy. Moderate Muslims can see that anti-Muslim rhetoric is lower in America than almost any country in the world. That includes all of Europe.

Redux 09-20-2009 10:50 PM
The NIE from several years ago that assessed the trends in global terrorism, identified "four underlying factors that are fueling the spread of the jihadist movement:
(1)Entrenched grievances, such as corruption, injustice, and fear of Western domination, leading to anger, humiliation, and a sense of powerlessness;
(2) the Iraq “jihad;”
(3) the slow pace of real and sustained economic, social, and political reforms in many Muslim majority nations; and
(4) pervasive anti-US sentiment among most Muslims

http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/De..._Judgments.pdf
IMO, those words, signs and acts further fuel that pervasive anti-US sentiment that already exists, particularly among the young.

xoxoxoBruce 09-20-2009 11:02 PM
So you don't think American Muslims are affected by congressmen and media types bashing Muslims?

Redux 09-20-2009 11:10 PM
As also noted in the NIE:
We judge that groups of all stripes will increasingly use the Internet to communicate, propagandize, recruit...
Every time a member of Congress makes a derogatory comment about the Koran or suggests we should bomb Muslim holy sites...and anti-Muslim signs at town hall meetings..or rhetoric spewed on the radio....are exploited and make their way across the internet.

Undertoad 09-20-2009 11:19 PM
No.

There is a great deal more anti-Atheist sentiment in America than anti-Muslim sentiment. Atheists don't seem very anti-American.

And, if you're worried that there was a tiny minority of anti-Muslim sentiment at the moment that a Muslim was sworn in, you're busy not noticing that a Muslim was elected and sworn in. If you're worried about anti-Obamaites calling him a Muslim and then being anti-Muslim at tea parties, you're busy not noticing that he was called that last year... and then elected President.

Redux 09-20-2009 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 596108)
No.

There is a great deal more anti-Atheist sentiment in America than anti-Muslim sentiment. Atheists don't seem very anti-American.
Anti-Atheist sentiments are not used as recruiting propaganda around the world, where those doing the recruiting have no interest in portraying the "positive" side of a Muslim being elected to Congress.

Undertoad 09-20-2009 11:36 PM
Quote:
Every time a member of Congress makes a derogatory comment about the Koran or suggests we should bomb Muslim holy sites...and anti-Muslim signs at town hall meetings..or rhetoric spewed on the radio....are exploited and make their way across the internet.
It would be very convincing to show us a piece of this very prevalent propaganda from moderate Muslims, perhaps exploiting those very searchable statements. Since it's on the Internet, all we need is a link or three.

Redux 09-20-2009 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 596114)
It would be very convincing to show us a piece of this very prevalent propaganda from moderate Muslims, perhaps exploiting those very searchable statements. Since it's on the Internet, all we need is a link or three.
The propaganda is not from moderate Muslims and I dont speak/read Arabic so I cant provide links.

I simply agree with US intelligence assessments that terrorism is being fueled in part by anti-American sentiments and that the Internet is a tool for propagandizing and recruiting....and, IMO, these remarks, signs, etc. add fuel to the fire.

I dont think a congressman's deragtory remark about the Koran has as much impact as photos from Abu Grhbab, but nonetheless, it is one more piece of recruiting propaganda spread across Muslim countries....and neither has helped restore the US image.

Undertoad 09-21-2009 12:53 AM
Quote:
a particular turn off for moderate Muslims around the world
20 posts later...

Quote:
The propaganda is not from moderate Muslims
This stuff seems trivial, and I know many Dwellars hate our discussion, but I also know that the next time you hear this narrative, you'll know in your heart that it's weak cheese. weeeeak

The non-moderates don't need quotes from congressmen. They can just make shit up, and repeat it as their gospel... and they do.

We can't have this discussion in the Pandagon comments sections, and we can't have this discussion with the repulsive Freepers. We can only have it here.

xoxoxoBruce 09-21-2009 01:06 AM
The moderate Muslims know that, but when the mainstream media says something that jibs with what the extremists are ranting, it has to make them wonder if there's more the media isn't saying.

TheMercenary 09-21-2009 03:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redux (Post 596080)
Or would it help if I post some of the nasty anti-Muslim signs at the Tea Parties or anti-Muslim comments made on the air by Beck/Limbaugh?
Extremists like you continue to make the same mistake that Beck or Limbaugh in someway represent conservative political values. You are like a little kid who keeps sticking his hand in the pen of a rabid dog and getting bit.

TheMercenary 09-21-2009 03:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 596089)
Your take on it Dux, is informed by a melting pot culture in which getting along with others is a critical value.

Meanwhile, most Muslim countries don't think that way. Most of them have a deep tradition of highly inflammatory rhetoric. It's not uncommon for a small slight to be met with "I will kill you and your entire family." It's not uncommon for millions to line the streets with the rallying cry "Death to America". This happens even in moderate countries such as Lebanon.

So how do you think moderate Americans feel about Lebanon when millions - not just the occasional political fart-bag - gather in the streets to chant Death to America?

Exactly. They could give a shit. Sometimes they vacation there.
You mean sort of like when one guy makes a cartoon critical of Muslims?

Remember this one?

http://www.humanevents.com/images/islm_cartoon_7.jpg

TheMercenary 09-21-2009 03:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redux (Post 596107)
As also noted in the NIE:
We judge that groups of all stripes will increasingly use the Internet to communicate, propagandize, recruit...
Every time a member of Congress makes a derogatory comment about the Koran or suggests we should bomb Muslim holy sites...and anti-Muslim signs at town hall meetings..or rhetoric spewed on the radio....are exploited and make their way across the internet.
[sarc]OOOOOOOOOooooooo.... BogaBoga! Heaven forbid we say anything critical of any group that happens to be Muslim, least we may offend. [/sarc]

But yet radical liberals stand up every day and bash Christians in the US or anyone who wants to profess their faith in a public forum, even if they are a politician.

TheMercenary 09-21-2009 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 596124)
The moderate Muslims know that, but when the mainstream media says something that jibs with what the extremists are ranting, it has to make them wonder if there's more the media isn't saying.
IMHO this is the key to the discussion. And it happens whether the extremists are liberal-lefty's, tighty-righty's, or anti-Muslimists, the mainstream media pics it up, finds the extreme reaction to the anti-thesis of the view professed and then runs with it. Bruce wins the common sense award.

Redux 09-21-2009 05:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 596123)
20 posts later...

This stuff seems trivial, and I know many Dwellars hate our discussion, but I also know that the next time you hear this narrative, you'll know in your heart that it's weak cheese. weeeeak

The non-moderates don't need quotes from congressmen. They can just make shit up, and repeat it as their gospel... and they do.

We can't have this discussion in the Pandagon comments sections, and we can't have this discussion with the repulsive Freepers. We can only have it here.
Why make shit up when it is given to you on a silver platter by members of Congress or America's top radio infotainer. So much easier to verify then made up crap.

Now I am done and Merc can call me more names, if it makes him feel better. ;)


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