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-   -   Iraq by the Numbers - or how to be dumb. (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=13062)

Hippikos 01-26-2007 04:02 PM

Quote:

The Arabs and Druzes who made their peace with the Jewish influx are Israeli citizens today, and welcome.
The Arab minority in Israel has never been recognized by the State of Israel as a national minority. The national, ethnic, and linguistic character of the Arab community has been consistently ignored and has often resulted in discrimination by the Israeli Government. They are often considered to be a Trojan Horse in Israel.

Aliantha 01-26-2007 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla (Post 310409)
Nonetheless, Ali, we'd dearly like a situation where they'd likely choose to deal, and smoothly, with us. It is likely in any case, as petroleum will for a long time be the salable commodity in the greater world economy. Combining this wealth generator with widely varied and distributed investment in all other economic sectors helps the oilpatch nations escape the risks of one-crop economies.

What you say is true UG, however the fact remains that it's not the US's decision as to how oil in the middle east should be distributed. Or should I say, it shouldn't be.

The last two statements you've made to me have demonstrated nothing short of bully boy tactics in order to arrange things in such a way that it benefits the US and of course their allies.

Urbane Guerrilla 01-27-2007 02:02 AM

HM, it seems to me you mistake their fault -- their eighteen-year effort to start a war with us, dating from Marine Barracks Beirut 1983 through 9/11 -- for our fault. I don't.

Urbane Guerrilla 01-27-2007 02:07 AM

"...of course their allies" -- in a word, you, Ali.

Keep in mind our self-made, self-declared enemies are busy trying to bully us. We see no practical difference between this and the assaults against us that put us into World War Two. Still gonna mean fightin', and we understand that.

Fighting of this nature mostly quits once everybody is too fucking tired of it. But you have to wear everybody out first.

Happy Monkey 01-27-2007 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla (Post 310808)
HM, it seems to me you mistake their fault -- their eighteen-year effort to start a war with us, dating from Marine Barracks Beirut 1983 through 9/11 -- for our fault. I don't.

Who are you talking about here?

Torrere 01-27-2007 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla (Post 310003)
Torrere, kidding aside, you've got the wrong "them" in mind -- our whole purpose is to bludgeon the bludgeoners who oppose this improvement, leaving them too braindamaged or too dead to affect the progress towards democracy.

...

The Iraqi nuclear program had absolutely everyone fooled, apparently including Saddam Hussein.

That line is total bullshit. I remember 2003. The international investigators led by Hans Blix were not fooled at all. The American people were not fooled by the Iraqi nuclear program, they were fooled by Colin Powell and the Bush administration.


On the other hand, you have an incredibly historicist take on democracy. It reminds me of the way that Marxists claimed that Communism was inevitable. They were so convinced that Communism was inevitable that they tried to accelerate the progression to communism by setting up dictatorships in Central Asia. Those dictatorships are now opposed only by radical Islam.

Democracy is great, but it doesn't seem like a historical inevitability any more than Communism was, and it doesn't seem like a cure-all either.

Torrere 01-27-2007 06:27 PM

It Has Unraveled So Quickly

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY Times article
Iraq is a different country now.

The moderates are mostly gone. My phone includes at least a dozen entries for middle-class families who have given up and moved away. They were supposed to build democracy here. Instead they work odd jobs in Syria and Jordan. Even the moderate political leaders have left.

Hurray for bludgeoning!

Aliantha 01-27-2007 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla (Post 310811)
"...of course their allies" -- in a word, you, Ali.

No shit sherlock! Glad you picked that part up UG

Keep in mind our self-made, self-declared enemies are busy trying to bully us. We see no practical difference between this and the assaults against us that put us into World War Two. Still gonna mean fightin', and we understand that.

The US didn't get involved in WW11 till the Japs bombed the shit out of you. I'm sure knee jerk was good then, and I'm sure it's got a lot to do with all these 'pre-emptive' strikes now.

Fighting of this nature mostly quits once everybody is too fucking tired of it. But you have to wear everybody out first.

Fighting of this nature doesn't stop till the citizens of one country or another stand up and say enough is enough (you dumb shits). Why did the war in Vietnam end? Do you remember?

Griff 01-29-2007 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla (Post 310808)
HM, it seems to me you mistake their fault -- their eighteen-year effort to start a war with us, dating from Marine Barracks Beirut 1983 through 9/11 -- for our fault. I don't.

Hmmm... so you're saying our problems with the Arab world began in '83 in Beirut? Do you think those Marines were there on vacation?

Urbane Guerrilla 02-01-2007 11:40 PM

Happy Monkey, your reply shows doublethink, or maybe unthink, if you cannot follow my argument. Who, indeed. Doubleplusungood.

Griff, no, I'm not saying that; I'm saying the current phase of the problem, the going after us, really got going about then. Were they or were they not trying to either start a war with us, or win it then?

Aliantha, I remember it ended when the Communists won in 1975 -- and then kept the place buggered up, and the refugees streaming and rafting out of there, for the next ten years. One reason I'm ardently pro-human and anticommunist, remember?

Really, people: I'm far more sensible than you want me to be; deal with it better than you have, okay?

Aliantha 02-02-2007 12:08 AM

Your view on how and why the Vietnam 'occupation' ended is as warped as some of your other views UG.

I rather think it was because public pressure led to the government of the day deciding they'd bitten off more than they could chew and couldn't solve the problems of another nation any better than those of their own.

rkzenrage 02-02-2007 12:43 AM

That we were getting our ass kicked due to our policies toward how we fought that "conflict" had nothing to do with it? Yeah, right.

Aliantha 02-02-2007 12:51 AM

those tricksy jungle folk did make life hard didn't they?

Aliantha 02-02-2007 12:52 AM

Maybe Bush thinks it'll be different this time cause there's no trees to hide behind?

piercehawkeye45 02-02-2007 12:59 AM

Or maybe because there is no way to stop the Iraqi civil war.


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