i guess i should update this. i look forward to asking UT to lock this thread in the near future. not yet, but soon.

we have agreed on 99.9% of everything that goes into the decree so I will have my attorney draft that all up this week.

life is weird, because i still do not want a divorce, still don't believe that our marriage is unfixable (if 2 people just decide they want to), but i have gotten my mind wrapped around the concept of being divorced. things get better day by day, well mostly - 3 steps forward, 1 step back and all that jazz.

life is even more weird because our interactions are more like a couple in the fairly early stages of serious dating rather than the tail end of a divorce. she has, at different times, stated that she still loves me, doesn't really want a divorce, knows that this is a mistake... but "if we don't do this now, it'll just happen some other time."

in the end i've come to the realization that the woman i've loved - and still do love - is in there somewhere, but she is choosing to be someone different for some unknown reason. i don't much care for the new person. i wouldn't marry the new person if given the choice so i'm done fighting for a marriage to this new person. it sucks, but that's life.

i close on the new house 5/15. certainly not anything approaching my dream home, or even my current home, but at only 50% the price it is a fair value and it will get me through a year or two. friday i went and bought an entire household of new furniture. expensive. but good therapy. bringing in the new stuff.

that's about it folks. thanks for your continued encouragement.

Keep on Keepin on dude , all is well , this to shall pass ,
EVERY THING IS A LIFE EXPERENCE !!!!!
And Ain't life a BITCH to experence !!!

Have beer on me !!! ;)

That can be just the ticket for getting on with your life. New directions, new goals, are not necessarily bad, once you're into it.
You'll be OK. :thumb:

wow, lookout

Thanks for sharing an incredible heartbreaking account of what's happening to you. I feel for you. I do with tears in my eyes as anyone who has exprerienced loss would.

I am trying to fast forward my sympathetic emotions to where you are now. That would be with seeing you with everything you want. Everything you need money, housing and custody wise feeling secure in all that.


Everygood thought is with you. I know the rays of sunshine began to heal long before I even read this thread.


sincerly,
sky

so can anyone tell me when I'll start feeling human again? i know i'll be broken for quite a while as time works it's magic and all that but seriously.

last night i'm with some friends at a local jazz bar. this chick who is, to be honest, the very picture of "my type" that it was scary. 5'5" petite but shapely, dark skin, dark hair, green eyes, beautiful smile, nice, funny, intelligent... my very definition of perfection. At first she was subtly flirting, then not so subtly, then blatantly throwing herself at me.

my reaction? "who cares?" i couldn't even express interest. every time she walked away my friends are telling me i'm an idiot. after explaining that i just wasn't up to the task (task - since there was no challenge) they had the normal guy responses about who cares about tomorrow, focus on tonight, blahblahblah.

my thought was - this chick is exactly what i would describe to anyone wanting my definition of the perfect fit for me. but i'm not at a place where i can even conceive of having anything approaching a healthy relationship and the thought of using that one for a one night stand... just couldn't do it.

i know i'll kick myself in the ass for not taking her to bed, but that isn't even my real complaint. when the hell am i going to be able to look at another woman and actually be interested?
this is the part that sucks about being "that guy". the entire time i was with my ex i had no desire to be with anyone else. other guys would say "i'd like get a piece of that one." my response was always "i've got exactly what i want at home."

eh, whatever. maybe i should have just drank more so i could have had the horrible experience of waking up with her this morning?:rolleyes:

oh, and a separate issue from last night? when did people become so incredibly stupid and shallow?

my friends are in the same field i'm in so we all have fair incomes - but none of us are flashy or talk about money or anything... anyway, i'm sitting with them, and some random chick comes walking up and starts idly chatting. i bought her and her friends drinks when we got our next round and we're just chatting. i don't know anything at all about this girl - i've talked to her for about 10 minutes at this point. her first question of substance? not hobbies, age, availability, or anything remotely appropriate. She goes for the big gun:

Soooo. How much money do you make?

WTF??? after i picked up my jaw, i piqued her interest when i pulled out my wallet, pulled out a couple of bills and told her that i'd like to buy her and her friends another drink - on one condition. That they move to the other side of the bar and agree not to talk to me for the rest of the night.

She got a little pissy.

seriously though - is that the kind of question you ask when first meeting someone?

i'm not sure how much i'm going to like this dating thing.

Apparently, she wasn't looking for a date, she was looking for a trick. :eyebrow:

Don't sweat it Lookout - there are a hundred sheep to every shepard and you are obviously not looking for a sheep mindlessly headed to slaughter - you want, and deserve, a lot more than that. Give it time.
Oh, and no that is a completely inappropriate question to ask at that or any other time - just my opinion :)

Why does it have to be one or the other? Perhaps you should try telling the next perfect girl all of this--explain that she's very nice, intelligent, etc., and maybe awhile down the road it would be great, but right now you're not in a place where you can have a relationship. Maybe it'll turn out SHE'S just coming out of a painful separation as well, and is only throwing herself at you in an attempt to build up her own self-esteem again. Maybe you'll find a sincerely lifelong friend with no "relationship" expectations at all.

Which is all a sneaky way of getting yourself to be able to see women as good friends again, which is step one to being interested in another woman again someday. ;)

Spot on, Clodfobble. Your never in a position where you can't use another friend. Make that have, rather than use, another friend. Use carries some baggage.

Anyway, friends with different perspectives can be helpful. There is no harm in friends with privileges, either....as long as you're upfront with everything.

Heh, heh, heh, Spellcheck wanted to change Clodfobble to Cultivable. :lol:

Ease up lookout, don't you know the IRS is now sending plainclothes auditors out onto the street? :D

I think C'fob is right re: why not just be up front and not get into the whole "dating game" game? My personal rule of thumb is six months off after a serious relationship of one year, plus another month for each additional year. In your case I'd add an extra six months of being single just to give you the time you need to sort out some of the serious mind fucking you've under gone.

It's great that you can ignore your friends' boorish behaviour. As for unwinding activities not involvong the two backed beast, I hear fly fishing is great.

Anyway. Give your self a much needed break from another person's crazy-ness.

I think our well-meaning friends may be overlooking one type of female that you *will* meet, Lookout. You will meet one or more ladies to whom you will lay it out on the line in all honesty and truth...and one or more of those ladies will see it as a personal challenge to "save" you, screw you senseless, make you love again, etc.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I'm just sayin'...

Who will, at regular intervals, say "Poor baby..."?

Hang tight Lookout - all is well. When we don't know the motivation for another persons actions, we can be biased to the reality because of oour own preconceived notions. She couold have been really nice and just trying to get to meet you or a the complete opposite just lookin to get laid. People never cease to amaze - and dissappoint me - ya just gotta give 'em a chance to determine which. Keep lil lookout safe and things with you will all play out in due time. Just give yourself the time you need.

"Harvey" is one of my favorite films!

Sooo, my not quite ex is seeing someone - but swears she isn't. I know for a fact that she is. And I've known the bastard as long as she has. frickingfrackingsonamotherlessgoat...

anyway - in our not-yet-finalized divorce agreement we agreed that we would not introduce people we were dating to our son until it was a serious relationship - to avoid messing with his head.

well, she has neatly skirted that issue by saying that she isn't seeing anyone. She has been taking my son to hang out with her at the prick's house, taking him to the prick's kids sporting events, etc... But there isn't a damn thing I can do about it, because she isn't "dating" him.

what exactly is the proper response here - other than throttling her and burying him in the desert?

As much as anything, wouldn't the problem be that the agreement is "not yet finalized"? It also seems like it would difficult for EITHER party to enforce. "Oh, him/her! We're not dating, we're just friends!"

It sucks the way she is continuing to game you, Lookout.

Are you guys trying for joint custody or is she the main custodial parent? Frankly, I don't think she should be taking lil' Lookout ANYWHERE from what you have described of her behavior.

And burying the dude out in the desert would seem like an enticing option.

Perhaps this show of poor faith on her part is something that could be brought to the judge's attention?

I would say report this information regarding the not-dating to your attorney.

These are dates? Or are they dating without the kid around? Are you sure you aren't jumping to conclusions? :confused:

she hooked up with this guy a few weeks or so ago, and they've been "just hanging out" sometimes til 4 or 5 in the morning. sure they could be playing parcheesee, but...

the bringing the kids along thing has only been in the last several days.

i know that eventually my son will meet whoever she is dating - that is a part of life. the issue is that we had come to an agreement that we weren't going to drag our kid out for every little fling. that just messes with a kid's head. her older sister has had an amazing string of boyfriends that she has inflicted on her kids and it messes with them. no stability and all that. adults can deal with the fact that lovers come and go. kids have a harder time understanding why mom isn't friends with the nice guy who was here last week.

Sure, I understand your concern for the kid, just wondering if you're worrying needlessly in this case. You may be right, I was just wondering.

You could tell him you're planning on burying any lovers in the desert.;)

i feel your pain i have seen many friends marriages that end is bad situations sometimes even before they have really begun. to see them go through it really tares me apart. I have been married for four years now and we seem to be doing well together, people come to us and ask advise but there is nothing we can tell them they haven’t all ready heard. the main thing to remember is the children is the most important thing for it is they that suffer the most and most just suffer in silence.

"You could tell him you're planning on burying any lovers in the desert"

PS
Bruce it is still illegal to dispose of unwanted people in the desert. isn't it? though did you know that a pig can dispose of a body in just a couple of hours you just have to remember to go back later to dispose of the teeth.

Any chance of talking to the guy and explaining this to him?

well, i'm pretty sure that if he cared at all what i thought he wouldn't be fucking my wife. i know she is my soon to be ex, in my book - until you aren't married, you're still married. he knows me. he knows some of what has unfolded here. he is just stepping in to get a piece of ass that is normally out of his alcoholic redneck league.

She's probably been doing that guy for ages, but has only let it come out in the open now that the divorce is becoming official.

You're getting there, lookout. Just hold on till all the paperwork is done, then she will officially become someone else's problem.

Wasn't sure what the situation was exactly. I am inclined to agree with mrnoodle that this is probably in the open only now. Sounds like they deserve each other.

Just more evidence to present that she's unfit to take care of your kid.

Exactly. Woe unto us who get what we deserve. Give it time. The train will wreck yet.

1) she doesn't admit that she is doing anything
2) he is certainly only a recent hookup
3) he is not the first
4) he won't be that last

BWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
/evil lookout laugh

i hate her i love her i hate her i love her i hate that i love her.

*disclaimer: unfortunately, even after all of this i have yet to feel any hate for her. i still love her with such intensity that at times i cannot breathe. i was starting to come unglued in my office today and new that i didn't have time to go anywhere sufficiently private so i went to the hotel across the street, rented a room, and laid on the bed and cried like a baby for 3 hours.

i can only explain it like this: i feel like a swimmer who pushes off from the shore of a large lake. i KNOW that there is another side to the lake. i just can't see it. as i get further away from the shore i get tired. and scared. the waves are kicking my ass. i am stuck doggy paddling while the waves of sorrow, regret, hurt, and anger wash over. i can't even picture the other side of this turmoil, let alone have any comfort that i will get there. so i paddle.

side note: i get to move out of my house on *drum roll* my birthday! started as Merry F'in Christmas - rolls on into Happy F'in Birthday.

Worthless but freely cast advice:
Check that you are reacting solidly to your kids welfare and not to her sexual activity. If the kid is clueless for now, you should be ok. If you sense the kid is in the middle of weirdness and threatened, suggest, as the adult, without passion or detailed accusation, that you are uncomfortable with him visiting this friend and that he should he come and hang out with you or yours during those house visits and sporting matches. Dont accuse, or get emotional, just insist, its for your parenting comfort. Go on your parenting intinct. Oh, and let your attorney know the situation.

Aw guy. keep your head up. we're all looking from the shore, holding out sticks, and ropes and floaty things. Kick. rest. Kick. you'll make it.

Even Radio City didn't have a Christmas production that lasted this long.
As long as you love her she will continue to piss you off. Since love can't be just turned off (by most people) at will, you'll have to deal with the anger.
Hey, at least you know where it's coming from.

Yeah, it's a long way to the other side of the lake. It's scary, it's frustrating, but you know if you keep paddling you will make it. Set up the routine (cadence) you need to keep paddling without keeping track of the time. It'll go faster. ;)
Stroke, stroke, stroke,stroke, stroke, stroke,stroke, stroke, stroke...........

Lookout - I haven't read every post in this thread, so I apologize if I am reposting something, but I just remembered you while I was reading this book:
Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care about Has Borderline Personality Disorder
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157...Fencoding=UTF8

I'm not a psychologist, I'm not even going to pretend to diagnose her, but it struck a chord so I thought I'd pass it on.

so what do you do? seriously. when you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person you've promised your entire life to is cheating on you and basically turning themselves into a $2 whore... and you can't stop loving them - what do you do? when you know that, at the core, this person you've committed everything to is immeasurably wonderful and yet they've made themselves to be the pearls among swine - what do you do? how do you turn it off?

i started seeing the pshrink. just for me now. marriage cousneling is over. reconciliation is off the table. this is about me now. after spending another morning curled up at my desk sobbing i called the pshrink. i swallowed what little pride i have left and threw in the towel. i'm done. i'm finished. i have spent all the oomph and willpower i had. i got nada left. i spend an hour and $250 to hear "lookout - you are normal. there is nothing wrong with you. your reactions and emotions are 100% normal"

GREAT - i think. until i realize that if the way i felt was truly normal and run of the mill there would be a lot more mid-divorce corpses in the world. i'm too dumb, too stubborn, and probably too chicken to ever take teh easy way out. hell, the only thing that gets me out of bed everyday is the knowledge that little lookout needs at least one normal healthy responsible parent. or at least one who can put the mask on to that effect. but seriously - when do i get to quit loving her? when do i get some relief?

i know all of the answers in a logical, rational, intellectual way. i truly do know it. but that doesn't stop the sleepless nights. nor the nightsweats when i actually do manage to pass out into blissful oblivion. it doesn't prevent me from walking out of my office for a couple hours each day to stare at a spot that we had a good family memory in. it doesn't prevent me from sitting next to the swimming pool sobbing while envisioning the hours that a happy family spent there playing, dreaming, and planning for the future. all the rational thought in the world doesn't stop me from needing a 6 pack + or an ambien every couple of days just to be able to sleep so i can keep my eyes open for the drive to work the next day.

is this REALLY normal?

when do i get to be human again? i don't expect to just wake up one day without hurt... but c'mon - when does it quit being this suffocating force?

apparently i broke some production award that my firm tracks. i had the fastest start on record - that goes back to 1871. i've got multimultimultimillionaires calling me asking me how i did it. i can barely concentrate on the conversations. these are the guys who get to decide on future partners and i'm telling my secretary to take a message. this is fucked up. there are currently 10,000 active people doing what i do - many more have retired - and i've set some record and all i can think is, "who cares? i don't have the woman i love to share it with." in fact, i mentioned it to her and her response was "why couldn't you do that when we were together?" I SET A RECORD IN A HUGE ASS FIRM! AND I DID IT WHILE GOING THROUGH THE MOST PAINFUL PERIOD OF MY LIFE. HOW MUCH FASTER - HOW MUCH MORE SUCCESSFUL DO I NEED TO BE TO BE CONSIDERED SUCCESSFUL???

when does my heart get to catch up to my brain? the divorce isn't my fault. i didn't cheat. i didn't beat. i never even raised my voice. i made money. i loved my wife and my son, in that order, without fail. what was i missing? we were living the american dream. she quit. she walked away. she shit on me. when do i get to stop feeling like i failed?

Giving bad news to people who don't deserve it is difficult but it may be a good while before the pain stops. Best advice I can give you is to just let it run its course and don't fight it, don't question it and above all, don't medicate it.

Nice job on setting the record. The irony of your personal/professional situation is actually a classic case. You win the "affection" of the world without even trying. That means you are "really, really good", right? Well, if you are so good then how come there is still one person whose affection you can't win no matter how hard you try? So whom do you believe? Do you believe The World whose affection is of little value other than as a benchmark or The One upon around whose opinion your entire world orbits???

You know those Tibeten dudes who sit in sub-zero freezing weather at the top of those mountains in Nepal wearing little more than a bedsheet but who are never cold and who can answer "What is the sound of one hand clapping" and can tell you if that tree nobody saw falling made a noise when it did? Those guys have no fucking idea what the answer to your question is.

So while we, the collective fount of knowlege and wisdom that is The Cellar, also have no freaking idea what the answer to your question is, I thought you might take at least some comfort in knowing that neither did/does Einstein, Dr. Phil, Buddha, the Dali Lama, Confuscious, the eight-ball you get at Spencers, Nostrodamus nor the really smart guy in accounting who knows everything.

Some things, lookout, we just weren't meant to know. But its not because each and every one of us haven't asked the exact same question at some point. You never will get your answer but one day when you least expect it- and sooner than you would think- it'll just suddenly occur to you that "who cares?" That will be a good day.

Ironically, but necessary in order to keep the karmic balance, the day that the question keeping you up at night diminishes in importance to the extent that you no longer care what the answer is, a question will form in the mind of someone else. A question that will dog them for the rest of their life. Things will make more sense then.

Some people get hit by cars, some people get cancer, some people marry selfish nutjobs. You could have been king of Holland with anything a couple could wish for and she'd probably find a way to minimize it or make it about her.

Is this the same shrink you were seeing before? Does he / she fully realize what has happened? I'm not all for the treat everything with a pill but there is stuff they can give you to help with what you're feeling. I'm sure they are reluctant to do this (just like they aren't going to dispense meds when a loved one dies) but you're case is really severe. It's not beneficial if you crack up and do something regrettable.

The person you loved is dead but you can't get closure because she's keeps on stabbing you. Anything that shields you from that would be of help. Hang in there lookout.

Maybe you dont turn it off, you let it go.

You deserve to be loved and that requires care and respect. Dont settle for less because youre scared.
Your ex is not immeasurably wonderful. She is, like most, flawed. She is making choices here and will reap the consequences, even if she tries to avoid it. She has motives that can no longer be trusted.

Again, its about you and the kid. That's your life and your promise. That's the trust to focus on. That's the good.

Glad youre talking to the Doc. Even if it feels like a cop out or a waste, its doing something. I hope it reminds you that youre OK. Youre OK.

Yes, it's normal, and yes, that's why there aren't more corpses.
I vacillated between suicide and planning the perfect murder.

Beestie said it, spot on. I've got nothing to add but my very best. :)

rough rough day, folks. i'm moving the rest of my stuff from the house into my new house. everywhere i look, everything i touch brings a flood of memories. the little noises of the house that i know i'll never hear again. the handle on the toilet, i'd been meaning to fix.

onward and upward and all that jazz.

anyway, i'll be disconnecting the computer tonight and probably won't be hooked up to the web for a week or so, thus no cellar access. i'll check in when i can. until then, carry on.

Take care Lookout :)

All my love, lookout. I know this doesn't help much, but, I DO know how it is to feel the way you are currently feeling. I felt that way about my ex. I LOVED him, man. I LOVED HIM. Now, ten years later, I am glad we parted. It took me 7 years to get over him, but, now I see him for who he really is and not my fantasy of him. Lookout--hugs. All hugs. Just breathe. Thats all you have to do.

We'll hold a vigil till you get back. ;)

:fingerx: :bandaid: There doesn't appear to be a :lights candle for vigil: smilie, so I offer fingers crossed and a bandaid. Lookout, look out for yourself.

*sending you loving and healing energy*

How's it going lookout?

alive and kicking. i've got my rental house set up and running now, and my new build should be done around january or february. i don't have time to really go into details right now but cliff's notes version:

1) interactions between the not-quite-ex are really really stupid at this point. she is now taking "niravam" to control her panic attacks - but she is perfectly mentally healthy, remember?

2) my son's teacher pulled me aside and asked what is going on. i'd already told her about the separation/divorce. apparently on the 3 days a week i drop him off at school he is happy, friendly... normal little lookout. on the 2 days she drops him off he gets in trouble, cries, and refuses to do some of his projects. not good.

3) anybody remember my goal to triple my income for the year? yeah, well with all the stress i haven't been able to do that. but i have more than doubled it year over year. stupid bitch complaining that i don't make enough money...

anyway, i'll fill in some gaps later.

Dude, that is a bummer about the little lookout. It's just fucking unfair. I'm praying that things improve for him and you somehow. I suppose it would n't hurt to pray that she wakes up and smells... something, anything.

That steams me. Sorry.

As bad as it all sounds it's actually helping your custody argument. It's too bad there is more than one victim in this whole ordeal :(

Why fight to triple your income when she's going to get half of it?

no spousal support. one of her big arguments for keeping the house, etc. is that she is the one who always made the money, started the projects, etc. that is BS but i let her make the case, because she managed to argue herself out of spousal support. she makes a rather significant income herself anyway.

child support will be a necessary evil, but for now it is not needed because i am carrying medical, paying his tuition, etc.

and even if making more just means i'm giving her more... i know long term it isn't a healthy goal, but i want her every single month when she is struggling to maintain her lifestyle to 1) realize that i was integral in building that lifestyle, 2) she can't do it without me. yes, i know that it is likely that she will just find a replacement to make life easier. but she will still know.

she already does, but won't admit it. we each had to submit our YTD incomes last week and she nearly shit when she realized that so far this year i've made more than we did as a couple the entire year our son was born.

it's not about the money for me. it never was. but apparently it became all about the money for her, so i want her to see how badly she effed up.

I was engaged for five years to a young woman... she was pretty abusive, but I did not really understand that. It was all I knew at that point.
She cheated on me and left me one night... a while later she called me all upset and wanted to "talk". She was two hours away.
By the time she got to me I had realized who she was and all she had put me through.
When she arrived I informed her that I wanted to move-on with my life and find someone who would not try to kill me (another story).

She freaked. There is nothing better you can do for yourself than move on as quickly as possible and focus on being as healthy as you can for yourself and your son.
I'm sure you know that, but it may help to hear another's verification.
The day you truly realize you are better off and you are your own best and healthiest companion for your son now will be a very liberating day... it is freeing.
There is another side to that lake.

Living well is the best revenge.
George Herbert (1593 - 1633)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lookout123
3) anybody remember my goal to triple my income for the year? yeah, well with all the stress i haven't been able to do that. but i have more than doubled it year over year.

This reminds me of a probably inappropriate joke, but when has that ever stopped me?

Our hero is walking along the beach,sorting things out. Bottle. Genie. three wishes. A catch: what ever you wish for your adversary gets twice what you get.

Our hero wishes for:
1) Painlessly straightened teeth. His adversary gets perfect, white, painlessly straightened teeth.
2) Beautiful 10,000 square foot pleasure palace. Adversary? 20,000sf.
The genie asks "what is your last wish?"
Our hero says: "I want you to beat me half to death."

ok wrong.

Sounds like a right pickle mr Lookout :( hope things get a bit better for the lil one, sounds like he aint having fun all the time :(

Good Luck :)

**********warning: drunk post************

ok, so i really hate being angry at her. yeah, i know that sounds stupid after everything, but it is true. in all rational thought i want nothing to do with her and wouldn't take her back if she begged... but i'm not necessarily rational.

right now i've only got too speeds and i hate it.

1) i remember the good. the person she was. AND I WANT HER BACK. with such intensity that it is frightening.

2) i focus on the heartbreaking torture she has put me through and it takes every ounce of willpower i have not to strangle her.

my category 1 moods prevent me from moving on and finding enjoyment in life. my category 2 moods can eat me alive. i don't like being angry and bitter. it just isn't me. it was once - it took a lot of work and pain to not be that person - i don't want to be that person again.

there has to be a middle ground. for lack of a better term i'll call it indifference. i want to find it. i need to find it. i pretend to live there, but it is just an act.

A rock thrown in the water makes a lot of waves but they keep getting lesser and eventually things will calm down. Ride the waves. Don't drown, don't fight. Easier said than done I know.

Time lookout. Time is what you need to find that middle ground. Sorry but I can't say how much. Hang in there.

Time heals all wounds....
..and wounds all heels.;)