I disagree. Your conclusion of
"Hamas stops firing rockets = Palestinians should live like dogs"
is quite a stretch.

I find my little Pal girl video more compelling. But at that time you said If you could find a report of the majority of Gazans thinking that Hamas is at fault, then it would devastate my post, but not one out of the millions that live in Gaza.

Yeeeah. They're taught in Journalism school never to do this, and then, when asked why they have the cajones to do this, they point to their gravitas because they went to J-school.

You're not supposed to notice. But you're too smart. Now apply critical thinking skills to the problem. When paying attention to the "secondary message" communicated as news, do you get closer to the truth, or further from the truth?

It's a classic SAT question. If the "news" reports, for five days in a row, The Administration today again denied that there had ever been waterboarding used at Guantanamo Bay, do you believe A) There probably was waterboarding at Guantanamo, B) There probably was not waterboarding at Guantanamo, or C) Not enough information to determine?

(Answer: C of course. But it's also a trick question. The people who already believe A will find that the reports confirm their truth. The people who already believe B will find that the reports confirm their truth as well. The same report will be heard as liberal if aired on MSNBC, and conservative if aired on Fox.)

Who to believe. Who to believe. It's a toughie innit.

I made a mistake on my post. I should have wrote, I couldn't find the quote that said that many Gazans are now becoming more supportive of Hamas but here is two other quotes for Fatah supporters.

The quote I couldn't find is somewhere in a 28 page report but I did post a similar quote in the post where I argued against your video. The quote I wanted did actually imply majority while this one does not.

The first quote was from an individual, I am aware, but not the second. Stats are not available to determine how large this group is, but there is a group and it seems to have grown since the start of the bombings, or at least they have become more vocal.


Alright, I'll go with you on this. Not to patronize your statement but this is off from my original point. I was saying that popular opinion from around the world has shifted away from Israel on this event. Many disagree with their latest actions. I won't use the word criticize though.


I will show the a proof (like a mathematical proof) of how I got there. If you disagree with any part, state it and show me evidence of why you believe the contrary.

1. Hamas/other Palestinian resistant groups stops firing rockets indefinitely
2. Israel stops firing rockets indefinitely
3. Two-State solution appears on current boundaries
4. Palestine's economy not strong enough, has the infrastructure, size, funding, etc to become self-sufficient.
5a. Palestine becomes dependent on foreign aid
5b. Maybe Israel/other Arab countries will open borders for some and they become second class citizens
6. Living like dogs statement

Obviously saying that "Hamas should stop firing rockets" does not mean you wish to see the Palestinians living that way but I am saying if a peace happens in this current scenario, that is what will end up happening. That is why many Palestinians don't want peace at this moment.

As I've said numerous times, things do change and maybe I will be wrong, but looking at the current scenario that proof is strong and will most likely hold.

1. Hamas/other Palestinian resistant groups stops firing rockets indefinitely
2. Israel stops firing rockets indefinitely
3. Two-State solution appears on current boundaries
4. Palestine's economy not strong enough, has the infrastructure, size, funding, etc to become self-sufficient.
5. Palestine becomes dependent on foreign aid
6. While living on foreign aid, without war draining attention and resources, turn to rebuilding their economy and become self sufficient.

As long as the irresponsible sort of Palestinian keeps crying "Victim! Victim! Victim!" while his every behavior, day in and day out, year in and year out, for decades on end, says "Perp! Perp! Perp!" he has no hope of ever having the moral ascendancy.

The assholes attach more importance to their feud with the Jews than to living a good life, or to recuperating their losses! The surrounding countries have pursued only destructive policies, believing apparently that they can conquer the Israelis. They can't; the Israelis simply are not going to leave no matter what the surrounding Arab nations try. They don't even want to take over Jordan -- the other two thirds of the British Mandate.

Mass migrations, displacing the original inhabitants from a given place, have occurred all through history. There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary about this one. The Palestinians have been carefully prevented from finding new homes or new fortunes -- as if they had much fortune before the twentieth century.

A lot of these symptoms, these dysfunctional wars, go back in their origin to the Ottoman Empire, which in its long span was hardly a model of social enlightenment, and which did not encourage creative thinking from the provinces. Nobody paid much attention at all to that swatch of Eastern Mediterranean littoral until a bunch of Jews moved in and made a success of the place.

There you have it then. That, if correct, is a HUGE part of the problem.

This may be an ignorant question, but

Why do the Palistinians have to live like dogs once all the rockets have stopped? Why can't they live off aid while they rebuild (or establish) their infrastructure, economy and government?

...(Just thought of this) because to Israel, letting them do that puts them in a better position to really hurt Israelis and rearm and all that stuff, since they are known to be deal breakers.

So it is in Israel's best interest not to let them do that, based upon past history.

Sheesh. That just crystallized a whole bunch for me.

Hmmmm.....I actually have never have thought of that before. Maybe you can go over there and establish their infrastructure, economy, and government for them. But if I were you I would try to get some experience, might want to start in Africa, South America, Central Asia, or any other third world country. I'm sure there's will be just as easy.

Hint....there might be a difference on why Israel was able to be successful and Palestine will not.

I hope they all chill out over there....this could be the real deal, a la WWIII.... :neutral:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/wo...er=rss&emc=rss

So now we are posting extreme individual incidents to make them seem to represent the majority. I like that game. My turn.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...acuees-zeitoun

Hamas did it! Hamas did it! Hamas did it!


P.S. I did read your article on the other thread and I assume that is why you posted that quote. You posted a quote from an extreme individual who one, really doesn't represent the majority and two, said "they should be happy too", meaning that they were not at the moment. I agree that the two cultures are fundamentally different but you took that to the extreme.

If that's the game (if), then I understand the projected majority that would be represented by Undertoad's example; but what is the projected majority that piercehawkeye45's example is supposed to represent? Walk me through that one, I don't get it.

yer face

That incident is being investigated, possibly for being a war crime. But, that incident is a minority. The Israelis are not systematically rounding up Palestinians, mainly children, into "safe" houses, telling them not leave, and then later shelling the houses.

It is the same as war crimes that happened in Vietnam by the United States, rare and not representative of the majority of the US Army.

FTFY