The Cellar - Anyone being affected by Proposition 8?

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- - Anyone being affected by Proposition 8? (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=18704)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 504720)

Whatever you say douchebag. I didn't say people should be thrown out for disagreeing with me. I said they should be thrown out for violating the rights of other citizens. It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing on a subject. If that's all that was happening, there wouldn't be a problem. It's not the words of the right-wing dickheads like you that bother me. It's the actions.

They are taking actions to violate the civil rights of one set of citizens simply because they don't like them. This makes them unworthy of living in America. In fact, it makes them unworthy to live period. If they get to decide on whether other people marry, then I get to decide whether or not they are allowed to live.

Now run along you little cock jockey and try to pretend that I haven't beaten you in every political debate we've ever had.

http://www.politopics.com/uploaded_i...sty-799292.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 504023)

I'm being affected by Prop 8. It's seriously pissing me off. I think each and every single person who voted for it should be deported. If you're stupid enough to think your rights include determining what rights other people have, you don't belong in America because you have no understanding of what rights are or what freedom means.

This specifically says things you believe to be fact:

1) You feel you are being affected by a group of individuals rights to use the system as it was set up and get a proposition on the ballot, open to a majority democratic vote.

2) You are pissed off by it. I can buy that but I can't buy your failure to recognize that others have a legal right to enact state law within the framework of their state constitution.

3) You think that these people are stupid, implying you are in some way smarter, which you are quite obviously not.

4) You have the right to determine that these people, legal US citizens, do not deserve to live in the US.

5) You are the only person who may determine an understanding of what rights are or what freedom means in this country. And you have been proven many times over to have nothing more than an opinion not based on anything other than your own understandings, misunderstandings, and prejudices. Many scholars disagree with you but you fail to recognize that others may have valid arguments which contradict your extreme views. And unfortunately for you, the scholars have credentials, you have none.

Now someone bring me some popcorn. :corn:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 504790)

Wrong as usual.

1. The group does NOT have a right to use the system to violate the rights of another. I'm affected because they are misusing the system. Democracy doesn't mean one group of people gets to vote on the rights of another. Not everything can be voted on.

2. The legitimate powers of government are derived from the rights of individuals. Since no person has the right to force another not to marry, they may not give this power to government. No framework allows this because it all comes down to this fact.

3. You're not in a position to judge my intelligence since I'm obviously far more intelligent and well-educated than you and I'm smarter than anyone who denies the existence of rights or who thinks they have the authority to vote on the rights of others.

4. Neither you, nor I have any right to determine whether or not others may come into America. The federal government has no authority in the matter, and we have no authority to grant government such a power since we, as individuals, do not have this power.

5. I have more than an "opinion" about it. I've proven each and every single thing I've ever said about the Constitution, the limitations on the powers of the federal government, my vast and accurate understanding of civics, the Constitution, the founders, and the meaning of freedom. I've backed up everything I've ever said with facts, reason, logic, and historical documentation. My views are not extreme in the slightest, but if they were, I'd remind you of Barry Goldwater's line...

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 504828)

Radar's Rantings and the Narcissistic Personality Disorder

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html#npd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juniper (Post 504762)

Very well. In that case, on what basis would you determine what is NOT someone's right?

I believe I've been very clear on this matter, but I'll say it again.

We have the right to do ANYTHING we was as long as our actions do not physically harm, endanger, or violate the person, property, or rights of a non-consenting other.

Governments are here to defend us from being harmed by others, but not to protect us from harming ourselves.

If your actions initiate force or the threat of force (coercion) to make other people act a certain way, you are stepping beyond your rights.

If you make a law that says people must stop at red lights, you are defending safety. Since we have a right to defend ourselves, we may grant this power to government. If you make a law that says people must wear helmets when riding a motorcycle, you are using coercion (the threat that men with guns will show up and take away your freedom) to force someone else to do something against their will even though if they weren't doing it, it would not harm, endanger, or violate the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others.

If you make a law against rape, you are defending non-consenting people against the aggression of others. If you make a law that says someone may not offer sexual services for money, you are saying that you have a more of a claim to their body than they have for themselves and that you get to make decisions over their body against their will. You are trying to defend them against their own decisions.

This is a very clear and easy way to determine what is or is not a right.

I like to use the "If I were on an island" test.

If I were on an island with other people and no laws or government, would I have a right to do this?

For instance, if I were on an island that has people on it but no laws or government, would I have the right to prevent a woman from getting an abortion? Of course not. It is her own body and I have no say over her body or its contents. I therefore could not grant this power to government, and neither could a million of me, or a billion of me. Zero times a billion is still zero.

If I were on an island that has people on it but no laws or government, and someone tried to steal the vegetables I was growing, would I have the right to use force to stop them? Yes, I would because I'd be using defensive force, not aggressive force. If my neighbors and I agree to band together to defend against a gang of thugs, are we within our rights? Yes, because we are defending. We aren't trying to use force against other people to make them do something against their will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juniper (Post 504762)

Call me whatever you will, but don't you dare call me lazy. I've already read most of what you posted. As I said before, while I agree they were brilliant philosophers, they are not imprimatur. Theories. Opinions. Not proof.

These people prepared well-reasoned arguments about why rights exist. I have heard nothing equally intelligent to the contrary.

In the end it comes down to this.

You either believe we are born with rights and we own ourselves, or you think we have no rights, and we are the property of someone else or a group of someone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 504834)

Radar's Rantings and the Narcissistic Personality Disorder

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html#npd

Stating that I'm more intelligent, well-educated, and well-reasoned than you is neither narcissistic, nor a disorder. It's just an accurate description of the facts.

Besides, you've got your own disorder to worry about...

http://bastardlogic.files.wordpress....ead_up_ass.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecuracao (Post 504778)

OK, reading again, I misunderstood your post. And reading my post again, I misspoke. I agree with Radar that we all have inherent rights, but I came across as saying that no one does.

And fuck Thomas Paine.

Hear Hear!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 504848)

You fail again. It is all explained here:

http://cellar.org/showpost.php?p=504834&postcount=125

:corn:

Is linking to your own post, which I've already refuted supposed to prove something other than the fact that you got owned?

:corn:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 504863)

Is linking to your own post, which I've already refuted supposed to prove something other than the fact that you got owned?

You have refuted nothing, only whined about your personality disorder.

:corn:

I'm with Juniper - and unfortunately for you Radar - my opinion, just like everyone else's counts just as much as yours. The people have spoken and you lost - stop whining.

:lol2: I gave up trying to have a logical discussion with that idiot a long time ago. You either agree with him or he has a tantrum. I could just see him slamming his fist on his keyboard and screaming at the computer because someone dared have a different opinion. It has become pretty entertaining if you ask me. :D

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/ma...computer-g.jpg

:corn:

Got any salt?