Immigration
 

I'm surprised there is no thread yet on the walk-outs today by many immigrants, legal and illegal.
I'd like to hear your guys' opinions and takes on this issue. Being origionally from the southern Cali area, I pay much attention to the local politics and issues.
Do ya'll think all immigrants legal and illegal should get full amnesty? A new system of citizenship? Pay back taxes for the work they have done here in the US? Other?

Full amnesty, or at least easier legal-status-gettin' for those already here. And everyone who wants to come here to work and make better lives for themselves should be allowed work permits, with a direct, simple process for becoming documented citizens.

If you catch a burglar in your living room, you might as well give him all your stuff. After all, he's already there, and he must be too poor to buy his own. All he wants is a better life for himself and his family.

Only if all other criminals get full amnesty.

Tell that to Rush Limbaugh who did the crime, does no time, AND ends up with no criminal record. The same man who insists "Do the crime, then do the time" will do no time and has no record of being a drug felon and money launder.

And still the basic problem remains. And still not one useful solution is suggested. And still the reason for the problem is ignored. What kind of solution is that? One created by a Congressional compromise?

Once immigrants could come to America on days notice. Now an immigrant must spend years just to get a visa. We solved the problem all right. Using MBA concepts also advocated by a certain American president, we added more layers of bureaucracy. Then we added more unreadable forms and more laws so that even immigrants need lawyers. Yeph. Problems solved.

The difference is largely based on how our system has changed in the meantime. Back then, if you wanted to come here you did, and either swam or sunk. Now they claim to have the right to my money in the form of healthcare, education, and housing.

I thought our system of justice was "innocent until proven guilty". That's one of the myriad rights and privileges available to citizens of this country.

Not illegals.

Why should those who choose to come into this country through legal means be shoved to the back of the line by a group of people who decided to force their way in illegally and then demand rights and support from the system?

(Hint: the correct answer is, "They shouldn't.")

The only real solution is to start imprisoning the Americans who employ them. Take away the incentive of jobs and all the free perks, and they won't come anymore. Any illegals in America, regardless of their numbers, should be deported and Mexico forced to pay the cost. NO AMNESTY EVER.

None of Mexico's resources go to help their own poor; all that lines the pockets of Presidente Fox and his cronies.

I'm totally behind that.

There was a guy on the radio yesterday who suggested that an employer who hires illegals should be deported to the country where the worker came from.

I'd be totally behind that, too.

Nice red herring.

Like most plea bargains, that one was created on the judgement of the prosecuting authority. I'd have no problem with Limbaugh doing time, inasmuch as he did the crime. Apparently the DA involved thinks this is better use of his resources.

I'm essentially with Jordon on the actual topic of this thread (although I think the chances of "forcing" the Mexican government to do anything in particular fall somewhere between "slim" and "none") Restrict the availability of illegal jobs and the illegal aliens will find their way home, we don't need to deport anyone.

So, did anyone notice any disruptions yesterday during the walkout? I have a feeling this is going to backfire on the protestors, as I don't think anything major came about because of their actions.

...and why do we suddenly care so much about this, anyways? It is not as though illegal immigrants are anything new to this country in recent months or anything. What the hell?

Was it here that I read that the Mexican Government is extremely strict on people crossing their southern borders, but then protest that we're being 'racist' against Mexicans when they cross ours?

Personally, if amnesty is granted to illegals that are currently in the country (which if I recall correctly, is a Felony), I want my own 'get out of jail free' card for my own Felony. Heck, I was born here, that should be my right too.

I honestly didn't notice a thing. I forgot it was even the day until the next morning when I heard some news about it on the radio.

When they had the big demonstrations a few weeks ago, there was MUCH more of an impact. At least where I was.

I posted this in another thread, with the statement that we should make a deal with Mr. Fox... we treat our Southern border & illegals like he treats his.

This is a really tough issue for me. Im having trouble figureing out how I feel about it.

The first thing I think about, is how many americans are without jobs and living in poverty, and that I wish they would have these jobs first. But they you know that most americans wont take these jobs, which then just really pisses me off too. There are way too many people that just sit on their ass collecting a government check and wont take a job that they dont want to do.

I don't think that illegals should be sent to jail as criminals, but I do think they should be deported if they do not have a spouse or children who are american citizens. I understand that life here may be better than it is in mexico...but ya know what? I'd love to immigrate to canada, become a citizen, because Im afraid of what is happening to this country...but they wont let me in. Canada wont let americans in, so why is it so bad if we wont let mexicans in? But then again, its not like I live in a shack now but wouldnt in Canada.

Like I said, this is a difficult issue to judge. But in saying that, I must admit that Im the type of person who says screw foreign aid, lets fix this place first, when there are people dying everywhere. So I guess in the end my opinion will probably be to close down our borders and start fixing our own god damn shit before we try to help everyone else. I have nothing against mexicans... and I understand that theyre trying to make a better life for them and their family, but I do not think we should have an open gates immigration policy, nor do I think that we should legalize the millions of immigrants already inside our borders. And of course, I think it woudl be stupid to put htem in jail, there are already too many people in there. I think we should free all the people who were convicted of any offense having to do with marijuana and see how our criminal justice system thrives then...

Wow.. I went all over the place with that one. Sorry.

Because a bill passed the House making being an illegal alien or helping one a felony, so a big campaign has been mounted to lobby against it. Kind of an uphill struggle given that we're pretty sure illegal aliens can't vote.

So far, anyway.

"Helping illegal aliens" must be a growth industry, based on how many US citizens who are doing it for a living that I've seen on mainstream media lately.

Not for the prices an illegal alien will. If that market were eliminated we would find out what the work is actually worth in legal on-the-book dollars.

Until then it's Greshham's Law in action.

Very true. I heard a woman on the radio saying that her husband is a house painter for a living...and if he ever complains to his boss about his pay his boss just replies " deal with it, if you dont like it Ill just hire two mexicans for half the pay"...

*shrug* .. Of course the rethugs will try to claim that forcing these companies to pay real wages to their employees would destroy their business. But in my opinion, if you cant afford to pay your employees properly, you arent a good business person anyway.

If you think the only people exploiting the illegal alien market are Republicans, you should probably think again.

I mean, why does the congress suddenly care about it? The American people didn't really care about illegals until someone stirred up this big pot of shit, so why are lawmakers pushing this through? I'll die of laughter if this originally started out as a "we need to prevent al qaeda from crossing the border" bill.

The Republicans are trying to find an issue to distract us from everything else, because everything else isn't going so well.

Depends which American people you're talking about. I bet the aformentioned house painter does. A bunch of other "American people" do too...like those competing with H1-Bs who are doing another set of "jobs Americans won't do".
That description is true enough if the job is defined with a fixed compensation level set at the whim of the employer, rather than being a variable subject to market forces.

This may have something to do with where the media input that generates your idea of "what the American people care about" comes from.

I heard the tail end an interesting interview on NPR (yes, I listen to that too) Monday with a professor (possibly of Hispanic studies?) who offered the opinion that one source of the conflict here has to do with differeing views about the immigration laws.

He said that the point-of-view of the illegals was that once they made it across the border that they'd "won the game" and should be allowed to stay. ..a view very much at variance with how a lot of citizens think about it. This may be why we're seeing a lot of "demands" for rights that don't actually exist in law. The implied sense of entitlement isn't sitting really well with some of the folks that feel like they're paying the bills.

I think there were good intentions with the protests, but the only way you can really measure the impact of immigrants is if they don't show up for work and don't announce that they're going to be absent. Because many employers knew of the protest ahead of time, they planned accordingly. That weakened the protests' impact...how much is hard to say, based on what I've read over the past 2 days.

The market for cheaper help will never go away unless we revert from our relatively capitalist ways and/or there is a major shift in thinking in American society. We like making and saving money too much.

I think the market is driving wages down...that, and greed.

The issue of illegal immigration is so spun now, it's hard to tell which end is up. Overall, I think it's beneficial to the US. I'm not against making it easier for immigrants to come, but I think that could backfire because people that really need money will work for pennies. The problem will just go further underground.

Liar. :)

I agree with the "game-winning" scenario for the most part. After all, we let Cubans in if they make it here. And if our borders are that porous that 12 million people just slip in, we're to blame for it.

I don't think we should just accept anyone willy nilly, though. I think a test similar to what Canada uses could work for us. And I think that our systems (medical, legal, etc.) could handle more people, if we were careful. Of course, that's a big IF. But I think we can handle the extra folks that we currently have.

IMHO, if I was running a business, and people did not show up for work yesterday. They would not be working here today, or ever.

My mother ran a coffee shop in SoCal for many years, and all her Mexican workers had green cards, and were treated with respect, and dignity.

We need to protect our borders, with troops if nessisary!!!

Look guys, there is another side, a very serious side, to this issue that I haven't heard anyone else mention...

Attachment 8488

Damn right! I'll be damned if I gonna make my own tortas!

We do? Cubans were originally accepted as "political refugees" back in the e'60's, but you might want to read up on the current handling of Cubans arriving here, especially since the Mariel boatlift affair.

And if you find a burglar in your living room, it's obviously your fault too; you should have better locks. Puhlease...

It's being proposed to make the borders more secure; a proposal that's meeting a lot of resistance. But making being an illegal alien here less attractive follows the principle of "security in depth".

I don't think making it across the line illegally should qualify somebody for citizenship.

Well, not exactly correct...it's a misdemeanor the first time someone is arrested and deported, and a felony the second time, unfortunately.

Man, I'm getting tired of hearing this. Want to draw the comparison of illegal aliens coming into the US to someone entering your house? Why not try the easy one when discussing this topic: you looked the other way while a house maid entered your property and cleaned your place for pennies a day. Suddenly, after decades of profit and cheating the system, you're calling the cops because this woman keeps doing work for you while taking small amounts of money that you leave for her on the counter. If you wonder why all of these "burglars" are annoyed, it is because we've allowed them to be here, practically invited them here, and based a large portion of our economy on them. Neither party is in the right, but in the end the "illegals" (read: "not the hiring party") will be the ones to pay the price for American greed, not anyone else in the system that encouraged them to be here to begin with and not the law enforcement system that purposely looked the other way.

Will the aformentioned house painter enjoy painting a house for 1/6th of his normal rate? Maybe not? Maybe he should get used to it. Or maybe the American people would enjoy the dramatic shift if they were suddenly required to pay to keep the profits up for the corporations that thrive on illegal labor?

Next year, and the year after that, and the year following that, I'm sure we can look to the fields and see people picking strawberries for $1.25/hour. If that suddenly changes, you can expect your strawberries to be shipped in from South America and the farm down the street to be plowed under. The US economy is about cheap labor, be it Mexicans picking the fields, H1-Bs coming in to code billing applications for the phone company, or call centers going out to India. If the laws won't permit the labor to be done cheaply and the industry can't sway the lawmakers, you can expect business to find a way. Regardless of how it is done, no one who holds a job currently also done by illegals should expect a miracle fix no matter how this pans out.

Stirring up racism, trying to make race the central issue, is the game of the ruling classes on both sides of the border. It conveniently diverts attention from the fact that it is the rich who employ the Mexicans, and the Plantation owners who stand to profit the most from an entire underclass of indentured servants for whom they have to pay zero benefits.

The point I'm making is that the fact that border enforcement isn't perfect doesn't create an easement, invalidate immigration law, and make illegal aliens legal.

Putting scare quotes on "illegal" doesn't make them legal either. This "undocumented" crap is a lame attempt to euphemize.
And the law that passed the House that's being protested so strenuously would make those profiting from employing illegal aliens criminals also.

Maybe he should only have to compete in a fair labor market composed of people who are working legally, rather than being underpriced by illegal labor. Gresham's Law again.

Yes...from a January article in the Washington Times:

Under the U.S. government's "wet-foot, dry-foot" policy, Cubans who reach dry land in the United States are usually allowed to remain in the country, while those caught at sea are sent back.

Apples and oranges. Most of the illegals here are apparently not here for criminal activity. Are you equating illegal immigration with burglary?

In theory, yes. But does the proposal really make the US more secure? I don't think so.

I got this email today that I found to be a pretty stupid idea. Maybe I'm just not in the right social circles (read, young, hip, party animal), but I can't see how this would impact much of anything. It reminded me of those stupid "Don't buy gas from xxxx company on Tuesday and they'll cut the price in half" emails I get all the time. :rolleyes:

Of course they are, just being here after getting here the way they did is criminal, working without the proper credentials is criminal, not paying their taxes while working is criminal & a form of burglary, getting paperwork under false pretenses is criminal and it goes on-&-on.

What type of crime would you consider illegal immigration? (white-collar, crime against property, etc.)

Being an illegal immigrant, working while one is fraud... among other things.
Being in the US without a Visa is illegal... it ain't hard.

What ain't hard?

What would you suggest be done with illegals?

The same thing that has always been done with the law, enforce it.
Deport them if they do not comply with the law.
What is not hard are the concepts involved here.
This is a legal issue, you enforce the law for all or none.

US law is never as simple as "all or none." And we don't have enough money to enforce the current laws. That's why there are so many illegals now and why their numbers are growing.

But I just don't see the illegals on the same level as murderers, rapists, burglars, etc...at least, not the ones that aren't committing those types of crimes.

And speeders are not on the same level are murders either... so we should just let that go too?
Where in the hell did you come-up with that argument?

I tend to look at crime from several standpoints, among them severity and circumstance. Illegal immigration is a mild concern to me...it's nothing compared to violent crime or securities issues.

I tend to look at what it does to our economy and keeping poor American citizens poor.

So we're back to considering Cubans to be "political refugees"...once they cross the line. Mexicans aren't, nor are other illegals.
No, but I'm trying to remind the people who want to sweep it under the rug that illegals are *ILLEGAL*. Not just "most of them"...*all* of them, by definition. They've already demonstrated that they don't care about our laws if they become inconveniant, and the fact they they're successful at their crime shouldn't get them a pass.

Why make a joke of our laws? If you're willing to ignore them, give up. Repeal immigration law, open the borders, let everybody in, but prepare to live to a standard of living more like Mexico's...there's only so many jobs delivering pizza and flipping burgers.

I"m not arguing for mass deportation; that's hideously expensive and completely ineffective. I'm in favor of punishing employers who break the law.

When the kitchen's full of flies, you don't play "catch and release" with them, you'll never be done. You patch the holes in the screen, sure. But most importantly you cover the food.

I think we should all save our retirement money. Go south and buy some premium mexican property. Live high on our american dollar there. Soak up the mexican sun and if we get terminal cancer in our old age we can just snort up or toke up some of that leagalized drug. Life will be grand.


*dreamming*

What I am saying is, We can take over thier country and make it work. See I live in a simplistic world. * taps forehead*;)





Sorry that's as deep as I can muster a thought.

All those who are howling about the 'illegals' should perhaps have pushed harder on the issue before it became an entrenched phenomenon. If a few more American - born citizens were willing to be treated like shit and paid peanuts, there would not be a labour market that attracted them in the first place. Some of these 'illegals' have been living and working in the US for 20 years or more. Rather than whining about how awful they are, why not kick up a stink about the poor performance of agencies that have let them become embedded into the American economy?

So, it's too late...just give up, let it get worse and then bitch about "the government"...because "it's an entrenched phenomenon". We are "the government". It's only "entrenched" because we've left it in the trench. People profiting from exploiting illegal labor get off with a slap on the wrist that they write off as a cost of doing business, and get a wink and a nod from those who say "it's too late, it's entrenched".

It's not "too late", cut off the financial incentives to break the law and watch behavior change.

Are you actually a Kiwi, billybob?

A little bit easier to enforce on islands, to be sure...

Would be nice to think it's that simple. Straight question time.Would you work for what they get, and if not, how much extra are you willing to spend a week on goods and services exclusively from legal sources...?

Let's make all the sources legal and we'll see what these things really cost. I bet it's not as much more as you're trying to scare me with. Most of the difference is going into the pockets of the exploiters anyway. We also won't send a significant fraction of that money out of the country, as we do when it's paid to illegal aliens. Every bodega in Norristown has big signs in the window about their cash exporting services.

Again...you're really a New Zealander? Or is your profile false?

CNN article about the terrible woes illegals must face during their trip north.


So. We are supposed to send manpower and resources down there to rescue these idiots from the folly of their decision to walk across 120 degree deserts so they can "buy nice things". However, using the manpower and resources to deport them and seal the border is racist. I think I've got it now.

I'll answer your question even though you decided to ignore mine....

I am a british born New Zealander. I arrived here legally twenty years ago.Why would I want to create a false profile?Weird.

Incidentally, Where's your 'quote' from?

I'd rather ask: would you be willing to not only spend the money to get all your goods and services from legal sources, but are you also willing to cough up the taxpayer money to lock the borders down, patrol those borders, and pay for the law enforcement services to round up and deport all of the current illegals?

I agree change is needed, I'm just not sure that it is as cut and dry as many suggest. "Let's deport, lockdown the borders and start clamping down on businesses to see where it goes" is, I fear, much more expensive than many people are suggesting in terms of economy and taxes. It sure isn't going well so far.

Let's start with the easy part...enforcing the law against exploiters; they way it's done now is a joke. Tieing that to the expense of the fantasy of completely impermeable borders is a straw man. That the borders can't be completely sealed against a highly motivated infiltrator is no reason not to attack their motivation.

As I said: remove the incentives. The illegals managed to get here because there were jobs, if there are no jobs I'm sure they can find their way back. There's no point in deporting them now because they'll be back tomorrow, it's too profitable for them not to.

Well, any ideas on how this could be enforced? Wal-Mart has already been slapped for hiring illegals, but is there an effective way to hit drywall hangers, ditch diggers, and tomato pickers? I had to provide proof of citizenship before being employed, but it seems to be optional for a lot of jobs and it doesn't seem to be enforced one bit.

It's not optional at all. The enforcement has been vitiated by several factors, including a contradictory law preventing employers from demanding INS documentation from foreign-born employees because it's "discriminatory" (and because of scary visions touted by liberals of squads body-armored INS stormtroopers with tactical carbines descending on sweatshops).

There's also widespread opposition to a true national identity document system, for reasons that make no sense to me. I have a driver's licence, a pilot's licence, two firearms licences, and amateur radio station licence and a US passport, which I presented the last couple times I needed to do an I-9. What freedom I am gaining because there's no national ID card system escapes me somehow. The government knows who I am and where I live, if they care, which apparently they don't, much

I missed an opportunity to do contract work in Switzerland last year because I wasn't an EU citizen (yes, I know Switzerland isn't in the EU, go figure). Somehow I resisted the temptation to scream "Racism!" then.

Interestingly enough, the fellow organizing that contractor group would have been OK with the Swiss; he's Mexican-born but claims dual citizenship as a Spaniard though his maternal grandfather. Today he works for Wal-mart (the .com part) as a legal US resident.

Actually I would tend to think that letting people cross our borders unchecked, not knowing what their intentions are or what their purpose for being her is, would qualify as a security issue. So it should not be just a mild concern for you.

I'm in no way trying to say that every person who is here illegally are bad people. I understand that many work for next to nothing, doing jobs that even I wouldn't want to do. I know that many just want to work and be left alone. So understand that before anyone tries to make it seem like I am anti-immigrant, because I am not.

All you need to do to understand this is just break it down to its simplest, factual components. Take out the emotional arguments about how you think they deserve equal treatment as legal citizens because they are people too, that they just want to work or whatever. Just know that:

1) The law very explicitly lays out a process which one must follow in order to immigrate and become a U.S. citizen.
2) Forget that idea that, "Oh, well this law isn't as serious as laws against violent crimes and crimes against property." The law is the law, and it must be enforced equally and absolutely. Understandably, the complexity and cost of doing this completely is beyond our capabilities, but it must be done to the full extent possible under the law.
3) If you are not happy with the law as it currently is, understand that there is indeed a process in which laws may be changed. Until which time the law is changed, it should be enforced as is. Remember the civil rights era? Black leaders during that time believed that it was counterproductive to break the law to attain their goals, so instead, they used existing laws to bring about change. In principal, this is no different with immigration.
4) For those of you who think that everyone, no matter who they are, where they are from, or how they got here, that they get the same treatment afforded to a U.S. citizen, or that it is the duty of the U.S. to welcome them here, know that the U.S. Constitution is our supreme law, affording protections and powers and responsibilities of the government, and that above all else, the Constitution must be followed. I quote, from the Constitution:

This was written for citizens of the United States, and it governs citizens of the United States and protects first and foremost, citizens of the United States, and it is the duty of the government to "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity", not citizens of other countries. If they want the same benefits as a U.S. citizen, all they have to do is follow the law to come here legally.

The facts are simple and straightforward. To argue the facts is just ignorance. Now even though the facts are simple, the solution is not. Emotions get involved, rhetoric gets thrown around, and people just become confused. Also the problem with illegal immigrants isn't just at the border, but people overstaying their visas. These things make it even more complicated to find a suitable solution, which is why we must remain vigilant and continue to enforce our laws while reforming the system to make it work better.

It seems to be pretty optional to me on a lot of the jobs illegals are picked up for. I never see them checking for ID when the contractors go scouting the Wal-Mart parking lots for day labor.

You used your ham ticket on an I-9? That seems a bit strange to me.

Here's my main reason for being against a National ID: it isn't needed. You carry a pilot's license for proof that you have the ability to fly a plane, you carry a CCW to show proof that you have the ability to handle a firearm, and you have a driver's license to show that you have proven your ability to safely drive a vehicle (but, hey, even the gov't doesn't agree with me on that). No ID card is needed, ever, to show that you are a US citizen unless you plan on taking a trip overseas -- and that'd be your passport. They want proof I'm a citizen? I have a birth certificate. Other than that, the federal government doesn't need to be expanded any more or have any more information about me, or anyone else, than it needs to. I know of no reason that proof of citizenship would ever have to be carried in my wallet. If you don't understand the problems associated with a national ID card, do a search in Google for "Britain national ID card debate" and read about how the basic idea to keep a NID from being counterfitted has stretched into biometrics databases and all manner of privacy issues. The ways the UK plans to use those databases on their own citizens is downright scary.

That's because you have yet to lose it.

Hey, you proposed a mandatory national ID card rather than simply passing laws on something that is already illegal. That, at least, provides some method of enforcement in this mess. I suppose if my DL had a little US flag printed on it and I had to show it to a hiring party before I got a job, I guess I wouldn't have much of an issue. But will that place any pressure on illegal field workers, day larbor, contractors, or house maids?