This is what war is all about
 

<img src="http://images.chron.com/content/news/photos/02/04/04/mideastfront.jpg">

I wish them damn Jews and A-rabs would take their feudin' somwhar' else, 'stead of the birthplace of our Lord!

... who was a Jew, of course. ;)

Actually, a new analysis of the available evidence has revealed that Jesu ben Joseph was not born in Bethlehem, as was previously though. He was in fact born in Cleveland.

He then moved to Mercer, PA, where he changed his name to Michael Trent Reznor.

Leave the computer geeks out of it.

By my definition, nobody who creates music solely on a computer can be called a musician. Or at least a good one, dammit.

Great. You chimed in with that <i>why</i>?

Holy bananas! Somebody questioning the rationale of some of the responses here at the Cellar?

I just find it curious that you said that after I mentioned Michael Trent Reznor.

Nine Inch Nails is one guy on a computer and keyboard and drum machine, even though he makes a good attempt at dispelling this image by bringing out people with guitars at his "live shows", and also giving them credit on liner notes of his albums. Computer generated music 100%.

Clearly a very creative person. However, being a musician, I'm not fond of people who lay their claim to fame by:

Launching into the main stream via a cover song
Use drum machines and computers to mimic real instruments
etc. etc.

Yes, part of it is probably jealousy. :)

-mike

I thought that might be what you were getting at, and since you've now said it, allow me to say this:

That comment reeks of ignorance.

No offense, and I hope none taken. But you are, quite frankly, wrong.

Let me clarify a bit.

Back in 1988, Nine Inch Nails was one Trent Reznor with drummer Chris Vrenna and guitarist Richard Patrick (of Filter) as backup. Chris Vrenna played real drums. Richard Patrick played real guitar. Incidentally, so did Trent. This is Pretty Hate Machine era Nine Inch Nails.

Broken era Nine Inch Nails is mainly Trent. Drum machines were used but the guitar is still real.

Downward Spiral era Nine Inch Nails consisted mostly of Trent Reznor again, but help is enlisted from Adrian Belew and Chris Vrenna. Danny Lohner also makes his first appearance on The Downward Spiral. Drums and guitars are, for the most part, real.

Fragile era Nine Inch Nails is where things really start to change. Trent Reznor, being "the man" behind Nine Inch Nails, retains absolute control over everything that is produced, but he lets other people play. Jerome Dillon takes Chris Vrenna's place on drums after a schism between Vrenna and Reznor and later becomes involved with the guitar. Danny Lohner picks up bass and guitar. Charlie Clouser does a lot of the keyboards and post-processing. This is the most "real" album to date - it is more guitar and less machine. It is real music.

Now. The music is indeed post-processed in computers. Changes are made. Music is tweaked. It is distorted. It may sound completely different when you hear it than it did when it was recorded. It is true that computers are used. But it is insulting to the hard work of the musicians involved in the creations of Nine Inch Nails seventeen "halos" to call their art "computer generated". It is computer enhanced, yes. But most of it is generated the good old-fashioned way - with a pick and a guitar and a set of drums.

It is <b>not</b> "computer generated music 100%". That statement is based upon your ignorance of the way Nine Inch Nails creates their music.

I'm curious as to why you mention this in a discussion about Nine Inch Nails. While Trent has done covers of Soft Cell and Adam Ant (to name a couple), his launch into the mainstream was "Head Like A Hole", which was written and performed entirely by Nine Inch Nails.

The fact of the matter is that computers afford you an opportunity to enhance your music. If you don't like it, that's fine - don't use it. I'm sure your music is just swell without it. But don't dog people that do. Simply put, you're no better than they are. Your elitism, in calling their music fake (in so many words) and dubbing them "computer geeks" is not going to get you anywhere and, in truth, it makes you look like an ignorant asshole. Who are you to say whether or not someone can make music that way? Guitars were new once too. I'm sure "traditional" musicians at the time thought lowly of them too. Now they're a part of what I'm sure you would consider "real" music. Consider this: All new truths begin as heresy.

When we get down to it, what's great about music is that the artist was able to take something that was in their head and make it enjoyable for others. It's not a guitar or a drum or a computer or a box filled with rice (as was used by Nine Inch Nails on "Pilgrimage", track 9 on the Left side of The Fragile) - music is in your head. It doesn't matter how you realize the effort of making it audible to others - what matters is that you succeeded in doing so.

I would doubt that any major label record today is recorded without the assistance of the computer.

For better or worse. It's because digital editing is so much more powerful.

re: becoming well known due to a cover song, no I was not referring to NIN, merely a stray rant.

re: NIN and computer usage, many people feel strongly about the presence of "computer generated music", I'll include a couple of links, especially ones that relate specifically to NIN. And while Trent can pick up a guitar and claim contributions in the liner notes, and a fan based soliluqy (man I KNOW I spelled that one wrong) might hint otherwise, NIN is VERY MUCH majority computer based, not real drums, not real guitars. You are correct in that "100% computer generated" is a stretch, apologies.

http://www.uta.edu/english/dab/music/vone.html
http://www.nudeasthenews.com/section...060100aae.html

-mike

This is what war is all about?
 

Musical seque back to thread topic ;)

Look, I don't know how to word this other than to say that you are very much wrong. I have broken down how each album was put together and who played the instruments. What more would you like? Do you need to see a home video of Trent and Jerome Dillon recording the new mix of "The Becoming" - Jerome on guitar and Trent singing? Do you need me to get us a sit-in at Nothing in New Orleans so you can watch them work?

I don't care what you <b>think</b> you know. I <b>know</b>, for a fact, no doubt whatsoever, would bet the rent on it, that <b>real guitars AND real computers</b> were used together to create "The Fragile". I don't care what a sorely negative review of the album says (which, by the way, is based on the writer's opinion of the album and not on fact at all - I'm not sure why you linked it, because it doesn't back up your point).

What is it going to take for you to drop your grudge and accept the fact that Trent and company use real instruments, in addition to computers, to make their music?

Heh heh, sorry Nic this thread is gone, solid gone.

It never was "here". It was stupid to begin with. Though russotto's comment was funny.

"What is it going to take for you to drop your grudge and accept the fact that Trent and company use real instruments, in addition to computers, to make their music?"

If you look at my last post, I think I say precisely that, along with the word "apologies". I would that he occasionally uses a real instrument, rarely, but still, I agree it happens.

However, I know for a fact that it's much closer to 100% than it is to 0.

Many musicians are offended by people who use computers to create their music, as oppose to simply using computers to edit. Whether you happen to be offended by it or not, I'm guessing the answer is no, which is fine. However, I don't know why you're deluding yourself into thinking that Nine Inch Nails is not mostly computer generated (not just edited, *generated*) music. Clearly you have no problem with it, in fact *most* people have no problem with it. But that has no bearing on the fact that it's mostly drum machines and computers.

Alright. Whatever you say man. You're wrong, and that's okay. I happen to know, for a fact, that The Fragile is mostly guitar-based. As in, closer to 0% than 100% of it is computer <b>generated</b>. But that's okay. If you wish to delude yourself and ignore reality, I won't stop you.

I'm done here.

You two are the opening match for Sharon vs. Arafat.

Dham wins this battle though...most of the music is organic (guitar, drums), then tweaked through computers. It's probably become more organic since Pretty Hate Machine.

Not to mention that NIN's use of computers was extremely innovative ... almost anyone can make a cacophony on a six-string, but who else could make such beautiful music out of noise?? This guy just sounds bitter.

I was searching for this thread and came across thisn' instead. As many times as you've pointed out that you're a huge ninner fan, I've forgotten to mention that Danny Lohner is from my home town. He's a year or three older than I, but I knew his jackass brother in school. Unfortunately, I never cared much for Danny the few times I met him, though I'm sure he's a changed man, etc...
One of the first bands he was in, Angkor Wat (aka Anger Twat), went on to become what I now hear is Skrew. I think AW was an opener for a Ministry/NIN tour back in the day, which happened after Al Jorgenson saw Danny & Co when Al was a Texas mainstay (he might still be, I just don't know). I heard that during that time, Trent got to liking Danny and his "talent," and asked him to jump ship and climb aboard with him. I guess that was some time before Downward Spiral.
There's more, I just don't feel like typing it now.