Those Bad Ol' Iraqis?
 

I'm curious, what exactly is it that is supposed to be so bad about the Iraqi people?
Saddam was our project gone bad, our fault, our mess... we did that to them, so we can't blame them for their idiot leader, not like us, we are fully to blame for our idiot leader.
Even then, they were no threat and complying with the sanctions and UN demands when we invaded.
They are not to blame for the influx of foreign terrorists, we took away all of their rights and arms, so they could not remove them if they wanted to... welcome to the American police state dream, coming to your home soon.
The Iraqi insurgency is exactly what we would do in their shoes with an occupying invader setting-up a puppet government voting to give away their natural resources and their right under international law.
They seem to be very nice and cool people caught in a crappy situation doing precisely what anyone else would do. Not bad people at all.
I'm just amazed that more are not fighting for their sovereignty and freedom.

When we attacked Iraq, we forgot that cliche quote "be close to your friends, be even closer to your enemies".

I don't really know where the idea came, media is my guess, but for some reason America has this idea that the Iraqi people are sub-human and different from us.

It is Americas inability to look from someone else's perspective that allows us to keep others in extreme poverty and disallows us from seeing the intents of our "enemies", resulting in a loss for us since we do not understand their culture.

Good point, by the same token, since when were the Iraqi people our enemy? Which is my point and I know you were not saying they were/are... the whole thing is a joke.

The government needed to make the Iraq and their terrorists the enemy for justification of an attack. Enemy wouldn't be the best word for the Iraqi people, horrible word actually (my bad), but it still doesn't change the fact that we look down upon them and that we don't understand their way of life.

It is that damn white supremecy thing where we think we are better than everyone else and spread (shove down throat) what works for us while ignoring every bit of evidence that suggests that it won't work.

Their terrorists? America created the insurgency. There was no Iraqi terrorism before that. Those Iraqi terrrorist were a creation of American wacko extremists. America only got what it wanted when America created the insurgency in 2003.

Yes, that is what acutally happened but that wasn't what was told on Fox News. The government needed to make a connection between Iraq and the terrorists and they needed to make them the enemy.

Who's we?:eyebrow:

America.

Bullshit. You have no evidence that America hates Iraqis. As a matter of fact you can't prove the administration hates Iraqis. They say they are trying to help Iraqis, it's just not working out well.
I don't hate Iraqis. My brother doesn't hate Iraqis. Most of the returning soldiers claim they like Iraqis.

The entire thread is based on a false premise. :tinfoil:

I'd be surprised to find that the average American thought the average Iraqi isn't scarey. Specially if they're wearing Muslim dress. Hasn't it been argued quite vehemently that someone wearing a burqa is 'suspicious' at the least?

They are only scary when they wear that shit here. Thinking they are scary is not hating them, either.
Women are suspicious, in a burka, more so.
And what do you know about the average American...there are none in the Cellar. We are all clearly above average. :p

uhuh...lol if you say so Bruce.

I never said that we hate them, just that in order to justify an attack we need to make them the enemy and make it seem like we are going out of our way to help them because they are too primitive and barbaric to do it by themselves.

This racist way of thinking is why we are losing. We think we are better them so we underestimated them and their culture.

Maybe contempt is the right word?

Or ambivalence....... of the individual Iraqi.

Come to think of it, they're the ones that messed up the grand scheme of things. The war would have been over long ago if it weren't for them.:idea:

i dont think anything went wrong with the plan, the US government chose to do what it's doing in Iraq.
At any cost they needed control of the oil and keeping Iraq in turmoil is the way they're choosing to do it.
they're not helping them or rebuidling anything that makes up for the amount of destruction they're causing, it's all a big lie, listen to the soldiers that come back (check google video). for every school that's built - ten are demolished, they're destroying it on purpose.

I never meant to imply the American people... The Administration with the help of certain press agencies are the culprits.

There are huge cultural differences between the Arab world and the Western world. Major ones being:

- Religion. Islam is a large part of an average Iraqi's daily life - more than Christianity is part of an average Westerner's
- Equality/ diversity - partly because of the above, partly because of tribal traditions still extant, there are very different views about the place of women in society in most Arab countries and the treatment of homosexuals
- The weapons/ macho culture. Very much an eye for an eye, and weapons are often let off in celebration/ protest. They love a bit of burning in effigy too

Hmmmm....

Iraq was pretty secular.

Sorry - I should have said that Islam is more a part of a Muslim's life...

But it was meant to be a lighthearted parallel anyway

Thanks for the clarification.
However, I always thought the idea that Iraq as a haven for al qaeda to be hilarious. It, as a secular middle eastern state is the exact opposite of what they wanted for the Arab area, an abomination much less the world.
The illegal US invasion/occupation made it more of a haven for al qaeda than it ever would have been as is.

Well, I only meant to compare Iraqis to Christian fundamentals... May have missed the mark.

Welcome to the Cellar. :D You are claiming the coalition forces are intentionally destroying schools for no reason other than orders from above?
I'm can't swallow that one without some proof or at least a plausible reason. It just doesn't float. I can see the Islamic extremists destroying secular schools and trying to keep girls out of classes, but not "our" side.

Control the oil? No, just knock out Saddam and the now free, formerly oppressed Iraqis, will be so grateful we'll be in like Flynn. Occam's Razor. Never assume an evil plan when stupidity explains it. Actually turmoil isn't to our advantage, but a solid bloc would be worse. As long as Saddam was in power there was no danger of that.

How are the two remotely alike?

Then why is there so much hatred between the Sunnis and shias. And both of them with the Kurds. Since Iraqi is a tag that came with the cobbling together Iraq, of three enemies, by outside forces, there's really no grounds for national heritage or pride. Make a democracy implausible. :(

There is a long history of social division between the two, encouraged and made far worse by Saddam. It is thought of, by them, more as a racial thing than religious. They are all Muslim.

Neither was meant as a serious critique on religious/ secular culture, merely a comparison of two extremes that reach round the ends of the spectrum.

Where are you getting your info on the average daily life of the normal Iraqi?

She means more-fundamental-than-usual muslims, methinks.

Iraq was more secular than the countries around it, which isn't saying much.

I think there wasn't much violence because it was suppressed under the rule of Saddam.

But that's the rub, Muslims come in a variety of flavors like Christians do.
Like the brothers that always beat the hell out of each other but will stand shoulder to shoulder against all outsiders. :haha:

I think you're right at the moment. There have been times in the recent past that Iran, Lebanon, even Saudi Arabia were more secular than presently. But this war has caused the militants to gain influence. :(

I don't think you're far off. Just stopping everything, every few hours, to pray in an open and highly visible manner. In a way that makes anyone not participating highly visible also, is a constant reminder that their faith is actively intertwined with everyday life. More so than a once a week routine. There are Christians the go to church daily, but they don't stop traffic to do so. :D

Try getting out of my old house to go to lunch on Wed or Sun.

"They" sure as hell do, in my town. "They" over-developed their massive plot of land with a massive "recreation center" (bowling alley? movie theatre? shouldn't this money go to mission work?) and now there is no room left for adequate parking.

The solution? Parking across the street at a shopping center, and stopping traffic along a major road so they can mosey across at a leisurely pace, with uniformed police officers (whom I assume are off duty) acting as crossguards.

I can't wait to start my Satan Worship club and have uniformed police officers stop traffic for me and my buddies because we built a go-cart track on top of our parking lot. We'll also have no problem blocking your driveway, and blasting mega-decibel bells into your home at all hours.

Exactly... separation of church and state. Cops have no place stopping traffic so church folks can park easier.
Crazy.

Cops have no reason to stop traffic for church folk full stop. They're going to heaven anyway right?

Aha, so that's the root of your discontent. They're runnin' down the hood.:lol:

You can get off duty uniformed cops to direct traffic any time you can afford it. Around here the Pumpkin Patch does that around Halloween.

Don't be silly, your rabidity? rabidness?, is clouding your judgment, now. The police should be on top of any traffic problem, especially when pedestrians are at risk.

It is not a traffic problem, there are not so many of them that they cannot wait for the normal flow of traffic to allow them to enter at their own pace.
It is our tax dollars being used inappropriately. You don't see cops being used at the grocery store on Saturday morning do you? No. Everyone waits and is patient like they should be.

The police, especially off-duty, are free - maybe even bound - to direct traffic to help people. If there were massive, regular crowds of shoppers parking at the church (or anywhere else, for that matter) and walking across busy streets to shop at the mall, someone should be on top of that too. Don't want granma gettin' run over on the way to church any more than on the way to Bed, Bath & Beyond.

The worst traffic in my town/county are around shopping areas on the weekend.
The only place you will ever see a cop in in front of a church, in uniform with their car, city and sheriff.

We have a problem down here because of "political correctness". I don't know if you guys have the same problem in the US, but here the police have to be very careful that they do not offend a Muslim. On the other hand they have to track and infiltrate the Muslim gangs (mostly ex Lebanese), who are into drug trafficking, intimidation, and straight out murder. This causes all of us (non Muslims) to be very suspicious of anyone Muslim, or of Middle Eastern "appearance", which is certainly not fair, but what do you do? These gangs are killing people (usually shooting or knifing), almost on a weekly basis.

Iraq is a mess because we (the "Allies"/Western coalition), made it so by invading in 2003, but does that mean that we should sit back and accept our troops being butchered by Middle Eastern and South Asian terrorists? It is not an easy situation to handle. By the time Obama gets in in 2008, it will be too late to "fix" the problem.

I don't know the answers, and apparently neither do our politicians. :worried:

Of course we should not sit back... we should get them the hell out of there.

As George W and our John Howard keep saying, it is not that simple. The whole Middle East would collapse into chaos (yes, more so than it already is), and it would probably spread into South Asia (Afghanistan would become even more of a disaster than it already is, and even Pakistan would be under threat).

I fully support our troops, and I also wish that they could be withdrawn, but the evidence and history, shows that this would be a disaster. Iraq is not Vietnam. We cannot just let go, and things will sort themselves out. I just wish that someone in authority had some answers. Vietnam showed us that supporting a government that does not have the support of the people, is a road to failure, but pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan will create an explosion of violence. It is a real dilemma. :thepain:

selfish bastards
 

I want to make it clear that they had a parking lot before they chose to build a freakin' bowling alley or whatever on top of it, thus creating a "traffic problem" that wouldn't have existed if they played by the rules the rest of us have to follow, IE use your resources wisely, don't expect special treatment, and in a nutshell: "do unto others" etc. (I humbly suggest they build a pedestrian bridge, instead of shutting down a major road) ...

I think they should rely on their faith to cross the street. I mean, would god let a pedestrian on his way to church get mowed over?
They could have T-shirts made: God Is My Crossing Guard. :rolleyes:

They couldn't have turned the parking lot into a bowling alley without the blessing of the government/taxing authority. They did what any other business would do, the use the property for maximum return benefit.

The entity issuing the permits would certainly be required to revue the traffic impact study, by law. Evidently they felt it was acceptable and planned to adjust the traffic surveillance/control accordingly.

Did you attend the public hearings on the project the planning board holds before giving the green light, and voice your objections? Did you complain to the parking lot owner(supermarket?) that you don't feel they should be enabling these changes?

Poppycock. The reason there isn't a cop at the grocery store on Saturday morning is not everyone at the store is leaving at the same time. There is a steady flow that's been anticipated and signs, signals and driveways planned accordingly.:cool:

Any time there is a function like a show, rodeo, circus, swap-meet, flea market, where there is surge flows, pedestrian crossing, or unusual changes in traffic patterns, the cops should and will be there.
Sometimes it's a condition of the issued permit, that the sponsor of the event pay for the increased traffic or pedestrian control.
That can be by reimbursing the police department or hiring private rent-a-cops/off duty police, directly.

Of course, you're right. How silly of me to imply that churches get preferential treatment.:rolleyes:

Churches get treatment. That's fine and just. I don't deny that some get too much. But any treatment is not too much treatment; a church should be, legally speaking, no different from any other event or gathering. Cops help out traffic problems at, to copy T3h Bruce, shows, rodeos, circuses, swap-meets, flea markets, etc; theres no reason not to do the same for churches.

Seems that finally the US guvmint is beginning to use brains instead of muscles. But too little, too late?

Must say, I've seen an interview with Gen.Petraeus some years ago as a group commander and he came over as a down to earth, practical guy who seems to know what job he's doing. Was thinking when I saw the interview, why isn't he in charge?

You want us to stay until they all get along!?:eek:
Not our problem.
They voted for that government.
Americans have got to quit obsessing with the whole "failure" thing with Iraq. We failed before we ever invaded & occupied a nation that was not a threat to us & did not want us there... the second BushCo. thought they could get away with it the failure was sealed. Now we need to control the damage done as best we can, every day we stay that damage gets worse.

No, I don't want our troops to stay, but as I said, I can't see that withdrawing is going to make the situation better. Both the Iraqi Government, and the Afghan, are weak, but would you put someone like Saddam back into Iraq, and the Taliban back into Afghanistan - or maybe let Iran rule both, which is not an unforeseeable possibility, especially if we pull out?

It will force them to stop blaming their problems on the occupying force and to deal with each other on their own terms.
They are not weak, they have a scape-goat.
Who they put into power is not our problem.
As a libertarian I do not feel it is our job to be the world's babysitter.
They shoot our kids, say they don't want us there... fine. Plus, they are right, we have no right to be there. I am talking about Iraq... this thread is not about Afghanistan. That is more complex and I agreed with the invasion but am disgusted with the FUBAR it turned into.... but, OT.
Iraq is simple, really, we had no business doing it and no business being there now that we helped them vote their govt. in.

I say we pull out to desert bases and let them have at each other. A total genocide would occur. But let's at least wait for a Democratic President to be elected first. That way we can blame any fall out on a Democratically controlled congress and a Democratic President.

Total genocide will be inevitable if we stay. That was well understood and defined in the Iraq Study Group; which recommended that pullback.

We created the massacre. We cannot stop it. Either they must conduct a massive genocide in civil war or they must come to reality - which means blaming it on and throw out their 'big dics'. No way around this solution. A situation well predicted in both the Pentagon and State Department back in 2002 when Americans were instead foolishly listening to Rush Limbaugh logic.

Work one does today does not show up on a spread sheet for 4 or more years later. Genocide that was obvious to the educated in 2002 will appear on body counts today. Americans can only make things worse; not make things better. We broke it and we own it as only the educated were saying in 2002. Did you hear them or did you join the ranks of American 'big dics'? The resulting genocide is no accident. Our only option is to minimize it - and that means pulling back out of the cities - letting the Iraqis decide what they want - just like in Lebanon when Israel created the same mess by listening to their 'big dic'. Lessons of history repeat when ....

I said the very thing in 02. And did I hear them, what the fuck does that mean? I was on active duty in the Army then. And you? What the hell were you doing about it in 2002??

It is not that simple any more. You cannot isolate Afghanistan from the equation. Iran and Pakistan tie the two together. The situation is so complicated now, that you cannot only consider Iraq. I agree that in an ideal world, the troops should be pulled out of Iraq, but it is not that simple. I wish is was, believe me.

And that my friend is a very true statment. In fact the most insightful one I have read on here. We are all from the armchair quarterback club. Hindsight is a guilt free position on most issues.