U.S. Can Not Detain Legal Residents Without Charge
 

Outstanding, we almost look like the Republic again!

In Major Setback For Bush Administration, Federal Court Rules U.S. Can Not Detain Legal Residents Without Charge As "Enemy Combatants"

A true American hero and patriot!

You can watch, or listen to, it at the link.
A great day!

They keep this up and we are going to lose all of our Evil Empire coolness!:mad2:

Well I think that's a great step forward.

So when are they going to start charging people?

Ali, I would imagine when people break the law. If your not being a problem then you have nothing to fear. We are still a nation of laws, and have a constitution that guarantees everybody's rights.
Contrary to peoples thoughts on the subject we are not ruled by an emperor, but have an elected leader. The President works for us, we do not work for him or her. We have had good and bad and ugly in the last 231 years. George Washington said "I did not fight a war to kick out George the II to become George the 1st" or something like that.
Please don't get into the war in Iraq, or terror in general, but take the broader view, and remember that we are the same old U.S.A. When the war is over, Solders from the Big Red 1, will be handing out Hershey bars, and Skilcraft pens on street corners.

Hopefully, when the Big Red 1 comes home, they won't be selling Hershey bars, and Skilcraft pens on street corners.

The only one we need to worry about is, the big box from Arkansas.:headshake

fargon, well that's what I would expect also.

As an example (and I'm only choosing this one because it's the one I'm most familiar with), look at David Hicks. Finally his charges were laid, and what do you know? He's home again and will be looking at starting the new year with his life back.

Is that right or wrong? Who knows. Apparently what he's guilty of wasn't anywhere near as bad as first thought and yet he was held without charge for 5yrs. I know he's not a US citizen, but we can only hope that this new legislation will trickle down into all facets of US law.

That is a scary sentence.

This is a very naive sentence. I have severe doubts about the trickle down theory in law as well as politics. Isn't the Bush administration appealing this decision? When I first heard about this, I got the impression that we were not yet quite in the clear on this one. :confused:

How depressing that "U.S. Can Not Detain Legal Residents Without Charge" is a "major setback" for the President of the USA. Even after all that has happened, that headline is a bit painful to read.

The fear mongers never want you to think any thing else. That is how they turn the US into a police state with your help, your terrified help.
When someone says "be afraid of this" your response should always be, "Show me proof, all of it & why it ACTUALLY matters, or you do not get any more power". Pretty simple.
The idea the we should trust our government is very new and more silly.

By problem, I mean pulling a McVey (sp.) Don't go blowing things up, buildings, bridges, or other important things. We have a way to change things here, and it does not require terrorism.

Everything that happens in law affects everything else. For all new legislations passed, there are implications for many other laws. The most obvious after this one is then how long non-US residents are allowed to be detained without charge.

It's your opinion that my statement was naive. I disagree.

BTW Sam, do you believe it's ok to detain non-us residents for years without charge?

Sadly, terrorism has been used by home-grown citizens within democracies for years.
Not just the UK (although my personal experience is based on this) but also in Spain and Japan. And those are just the two examples I have off the top of my head.

Which has nothing to do with us. Britain is as far from free as a nation can get.
They decided some time ago that to fight the terrorists the government would just terrorize their own people.
The US needs to learn from the UK and do the exact opposite and stand fast, have the strength of our convictions.
If you give up your freedom, there is nothing to protect... might as well go ahead and blow everything up yourselves.

My post was in direct response to Fargon's, I was only pointing out that home-grown terrorism isn't recent or purely a US problem. Had I been suggesting the UK has the best way to deal with terrorism I would have written that.

rkz...your posts lately have been incredibly aggressive and ill considered in my opinion. Insulting even. It's quite clear that no nation on this earth has come up with a good way of fighting terrorism, including the USA. Might I remind you of all the problems you are having at the moment?

Don't turn yourself into a hypocritical yank mate.

Can you blame him? I am told the Washington Beltway has signs that read "Report suspicious activity". IOW bring back Sen Joseph McCarthy. We have had this fear of mythical terrorism for longer than America was in WWII. Finally the reality of all these 'terrorist hiding among us' (ie another Orange Alert) is being acknowledged as mythical. At what point do we notice the common factor promoting mythical fears and thereby creating enemies among us?

Nations are creating their own home grown terrorism, instead, by promoting fear. Notice that every 'potential terrorism attack' is ill conceived, had no equipment, had no real plan, and was created mostly by anger towards the US government.

Furthermore, even 11 September probably could have been averted had Federal agents, multiple times in multiple cities, been permitted by the George Jr administration to investigate.

Terrorism is easy to stop when political agendas don't create them up front and when the little people - those Federal agents - are permitted to do their job without a Fatherland Security agenda.

Biggest problem America has is a government so corrupt as to even destroy the records so that these wacko extremists (people that TheMercenary and Urbane Guerrilla love) can remain in power and not be prosecuted. The biggest problem America has is fascism that even justified torture.

The biggest problem America has: Its people are just beginning to realize what Monty Python was warning us about. "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition."

BTW, did you learn the latest? Government can read any electronic communication without judicial review - without a search warrant - if that communication is stored. If your e-mail is in transient, then government cannot read it. But if your e-mail is stored in a POP3 server, then government can access it. Americans and non-Americans alike have no right to privacy - except when the communication is in transient. Just another example of how wacko fascist extremist this George Jr administration has become because they must save us from ourselves.

Does this sound like a nation of freedom, laws, and human rights? No. This sounds more like Nazi Germany where homegrown terrorism and spying become more frequent.

"We have met the enemy and he is us". We were warned of this almost 40 years ago. Deja vue. That is where America's biggest problem lies. A problem openly advocated, endorsed, and encouraged by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, TheMercenary, and Urbane Guerrilla. The basic concept of America under attack in the tradition of Sen Joseph McCarthy, blacklisting, and mythical fears of an enemy hiding among us.

Did you notice that those who are a greatest threat to America (51 of the 88) even conveniently destroyed the evidence? After all, their political agenda is more important than rule of law, basic human rights, or the principles that define American. Burn the evidence. Justified by their political agenda to save us from ourselves. Therein lays a greatest problem in America.

"Report suspicious activity. Zieg heil."

I'm not, there is freedom and there rest. Either you believe in freedom or you do not. Vote Ron Paul.
Reading aggressive emotion into my posts is on your side.
We will do much better as soon as we get rid of BushCo. and out of the Middle East, let them deal with it themselves.
That the UK is no longer a free nation and that Australia is on it's way are facts, nothing insulting about a fact.

I think Ali migh have been responding directly to your response to my post. Again, I reiterate - all I was doing was stating that at least three countries had experienced terrorism by citizens. Spain by ETA, Japan by Aum Shinrikyo, the UK during the Troubles. None of this refers to Islam, Sept 11th, America etc.

I didn't mean to suggest we (other countries) dealt well with terrorism. I just meant that we had experience. You're new at it. If you can teach us a lesson we'd be very happy to learn it.

One thing no one should do, is treat their own innocent citizens like terrorists.

You are correct SG.

rkz, I happen to know people who are involved in anti-terrorism over here. In no way do they treat 'innocent australians' as terrorists.

Why don't you get your own country straight before you condemn others who are no more guilty of the same crimes you are? Even less in fact. We don't have illegal wire tapping for example.

Also, you talk all the time about overthrowing the government (this is for you also tw). What exactly are you doing to get rid of Bush then? Sitting on your hands waiting for someone else to make the first move? Or better yet, just hoping you get rid of him at the next election.

Yeah right, Australia is a terrible place.

Really. How do they view people who wanted to keep their guns when they decided to disarm their citizens so the government could "monitor" an unarmed population?

I will vote to get rid of him. If there is no election I will join any force that will try to do so with other means. It is not legal for him to run again.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never implied that.

You certainly did imply that rkz, intentionally or otherwise. I think you'll find others from Australia or the UK will back me up on that.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say in your first statement, Really. How do they view people who wanted to keep their guns when they decided to disarm their citizens so the government could "monitor" an unarmed population?

It is a question. Up to you to answer it accurately.

OK, I don't understand the question. Who is 'they' and what do you mean by, so the government could "monitor" an unarmed population

If you don't understand it, then you can't be offended by it.

Your posts being insulting is different to me being offended by what you've posted.

Aside from that, it was previous statements that I applied that sentiment to.

Are you going to create understanding or just have it your way?

I just don't see how I can make "so the government could monitor an unarmed population" any clearer.
Is there a specific word's definition that escapes you?
www.dictionary.com

Ownership of handguns in the UK was banned due to the Dunblaine massacre.....not so that the government could monitor an unarmed population.

General ownership of weapons was not a major part of our culture anyway.....hasn't been for centuries.

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Think that's a catchy but ridiculous claim? Apparently the UK police don't think so now.

We have had many examples of home grown terrorism over the years, most notably the bombing of the federal building in Okie City, the murder of Dr. King The I had a dream speech still moves me. JFK, and his brother. The FBI attack on Mt. Carmel, And Ruby ridge.
Their are more, and I find it sad that we can't get along. Maby the social Utopians were right, we need to come together and think about our differences. This does not mean we need big brother, or any other totalitarian government. People have to be allowed to live there lives as they see fit. IMHO we can get along if we try. We Americans want to be friends with everybody, granted we have our bad apples KKK and others, but they are less than 2% of the population.

In the words of Rodney King "Why can't we just get along".

But notice that there aren't scores of articles - from any area of the press - demanding we be given the right to carry guns. It really isn't considered an aspect of freedom in this country - as Dana said it's not been part of our culture for a very long time.

So to hear your countrymen described as weak, undeserving of freedom and generally pathetic for letting a fascist Government ride rough-shod over them is really baffling.

As I've said before, I know the UK does not have all the answers. Not when it comes to weapons, drugs, terrorism or healthcare. But I refuse to believe this country is sliding into dumb, drone-like slavery at the hands of The State. I also think that anyone who believes that should come and visit us for a while and talk to real Brits on the street. I don't mean the reasonably literate, reasonably liberal people who have the time and money to post here. I mean real, passionate, ignorant and blinkered Brits. The dry humour, lack of respect for authority and general all-round awkwardness of the average Brit in the street should reassure you that we don't do dictators here. Not since we woke up after Cromwell's death and decided, "I'll dance if I fucking well want to" anyway.

I really appreciate the diversity of views on here, but railing against what foreigners choose to do with their own country rarely gets you anywhere. Least of all when your opinions simply don't connect with people of that nationality.

I don't live in the land of the free. Fair enough. My upbringing in this country means I value things differently, and what you call freedom doesn't really concern me all that much. I'm not whistling past the graveyard - I'm a product of my upbringing. Much as Duck Duck is unable to understand how her perception of crime in America concerns anyone here.

Quit thinking you know all about life in Great Britain, will ya SG? Sheesh. ;)

I really do like to hear about how things are...not the version we think we know from whatever sources we are subjected to here.

I'm not commenting on the thread, I just noticed the occasional people telling you what it's like in your homeland.

I just wanted to make sure you were suggesting what it appeared you were before I told you what a stupid statement it was.

Thanks for that.

Nice post up there SG. I think you've summed it up very nicely.

I would suggest that it's much the same in Australia.

Edit: decided not to bother after all.

"Stupid", I'm dazzled by your articulate, poignant, point-by-point reply.
Yeah, "we are just different" sure makes perfect sense... freedom changes with distance. How could I have not seen that before? :p

Perception of freedom changes with culture.
In the same way perception of acceptable crime levels changes with culture.

Why is that so hard to grasp?

Nope, I just don't agree with it.
However, I have stated MANY times that most people are just not cut out for freedom.

I think most people have different ideas of what freedom is.

No shit, do you think we aren't aware of that? Not everyone is Duck Duck, but we hear it every fucking day from one Brit/European/Aussie/Oriental or another, who feel quite free to criticize everything about the US. We don't do anything right, everything is our fault from the economy to the god damn weather.

I posted that article about guns in Britain to demonstrate to the all knowing, that just making a law against guns doesn't instantly solve the problem. This is an excellent example because Brits are not a gun culture, and if there is still a problem there, imagine how bad it would be here.

OK, so this thread is degenerating into another gun debate. Oh what joy!

rkz, you seem to think that no one here owns a gun. Many people do. You are simply not permitted to carry concealable weapons, however, if you belong to a pistol club for example, you may own a hand gun which is licensed. People may not own semi-automatic weapons.

Your idea of freedom is very much different to mine. I like the feeling of not needing to own a gun in order to feel safe. If I did wish to own a gun however, I could certainly do so. That's it.

That is why your statement was stupid. You don't know what you're talking about.

Bruce, of all the users on the internet something like 70% come from the US. Most message board sites revolve around US issues or people.

If the general trend is to talk about US politics as it is here, rather than british, asian or australian, then of course members from other nations will comment.

Why are you arking up at SG for explaining that the US perception of other nations isn't entirely accurate? Surely that means both sides are guilty of the same thing?

I'm arking? What the fuck is that?

She said I pointed out that's something we put up with every fucking day.

Now what's your problem?

Three times I wrote and destroyed a post to ask the same question. Really, Aliantha. What is your point? You make accusations. But your posts are so short on facts and examples that only speculation can make sense. Yes, that is what many must do to reply - speculate as to what you are saying.

You really are an anti-American Socialist idiot aren't you? :D

To ark up means to get cranky. Pardon me for thinking you were cranky when you were using abusive language in your post. I guess you were just talking.

With regard to the rest of my post. My point was that the reason US citizens might feel criticised by posters from other nations is because it's mostly US issues which get discussed online due to the fact that it's mostly US users online. To be honest, I don't see too many people from other nations saying anything different to the sorts of things US citizens say though.

If you disagree then fine. I was just trying to suggest a reason for what seems to be a problem for you.

tw, I went back and read your post again. I didn't find anything of interest in it. I guess it's only an opinion that adding more words means there's any more substance to a post.

Thanks for your input.

Well if that was your point, then why all this "We don't do anything right, everything is our fault from the economy to the god damn weather."

Nobody (of merit) was saying that. In the meantime it is completely in the interest of every non-American to comment fully about what happens in America. Those comments are necessary and welcome. However your previous posts were so vague as to not make clear your intended point. So it is only xoxoxoBruce who is touchy about criticism that, well, we don't get enough of.

This meandering thread is starting to make some sense (made more difficult because posts are not entirely clear to whom or what post that reply is intended; too much brevity of information).

You guess right.But when an American does it to some other country, we're arrogant dicks, we don't understand other cultures. Well, it goes both ways.
My problem is you accusing me of dumping on SG, when I was saying I understand what she's talking about because we see it every god damn day.

I have no dog in this particular hunt but brav-fucking-0 dude.
:p

Yeah, I have to second this.
And-If this was a "major setback" I can't imagine what their highest ideal could have been.
Ooh I've got another Kafka feeling coming on. Ick.:yeldead:

Nobody of merit ? Fuck you too, tw. And stop reading shit into my posts that I didn't say.

Tell us why you think those comments from foreigners are necessary and welcome?

Bruce it would appear that we agree.

End of argument.

Four letter words don't change reality - nobody of merit.

Welcome to the new Cellar where personal attacks are now acceptable and encouraged. As a result, many have left - some posting why they leave. Even tw has decided to be honest about the integrity of some posters only because personal attacks are now acceptable - actually encouraged - in the Cellar. Notice Aliantha new attitude. No reasons. Just a post based in hate. So much hate as to even agree with Bruce - just to promote animosity.

Nobody of merit. xoxoxoBruce had no reason to asssume that phrase was about him. It was even posted with no one in mind - just fishing to see who wants to fight over nothing. Bruce's guilt got the best of him. This is the new Cellar starting about when TheMercenary started posting.

You quoted what I said and then said nobody of merit said that. I think that's pretty clearly a personal attack. No guilt whatsoever, I mean what I say. Ali jumped on me for agreeing with SG, that's all.

But tw thinks the whole world has the right...no, duty, to tell us how to run our country. Not foreign policy that might affect them, the whole fucking shootin' match.
Of course tw wants to take it away from the criminals in Washington and hand it over to the criminals flooding across the border, too.... so we know where he's coming from.

Topics get raised for discussion and we all discuss them. Sometimes the topics up for discussion are about events in the UK and people from both sides of the pond (as well as our antediluvian contingent) put forward their views. More often the topics concern events or issues relating to America: that's quite natural given that Americans constitute a majority within the Cellar. Consequently, we find ourselves more often discussing American issues and events and we are more often in the position of non-Americans discussing American topics than vice versa.

Given that we generally find in any thread a range of opinions on the topic in hand, this necessarily means that we will often find non-Americans commenting in a critical manner on American topics. There will also be non-Americans taking a different view and Americans being critical. The only way to stop that would be if non-Americans refrained from expressing opinions on American topics.

Ahhhh Dana? I already said that...differently. lol See post 45. ;) It seemed that it was taken as a criticism, but oh well. I guess it's sometimes hard for different people to communicate effectively.