If the indians had been republican
 

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http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/...DAA508C%7D.gif

They were, many of the Republic's ideals were based on more than one tribe's governance.
They did try.

But the Indians didn't do that dar512, did they. And look what happened to them. Those that don't learn from history are doomed to get fucked.

the lands that the plymouth settlers first settled on had been virtually emptied by disease brought by prior white traders. therefore, they were in no real position to defend the land. and were by no means united among themselves. Had they been hale and populous, they very well may have defended their land with force. ...for a time.

If the Indians had been Republicans, then they would have freed the slaves before the white man got there. Imagine how many lives would have been saved without a Civil War.

Even if the Civil War had been about slavery, that still wouldn't make any sense.

What are you talking about? Republicans owned slaves.
Edit:
Dang Wolf, we typed that at the same time.... lol.

The Republican Party considers Lincoln their founding father.

Shame that.

There was more than enough Indians to kick ass. They were so close to Plymouth Plantation, there wasn't enough land for the Pilgrims to expand their fields. That's why they asked permission to plant a section further south from where they landed. The Wampanoags said, have at it, because the village that had been on that spot died out of disease, and they wanted no parts of it.

Doomed, schmoomed, it's cyclical, that's all--more Indians are simply coming back to this area, from points south. And nobody's being fucked except for them. :rolleyes:

Indians? Not Indians. They aint no stinkin' Indians.
Mexicans are just as mongrel as we are.

Like hell they aren't. Mexico alone has more Indians than the U.S.

Are you trying to tell me all these illegal immigrants are pureblood Indians? No Spanish, french, Black, English, blood? Me, your oldest and dearest friend.

:D

Nooooo, that is not what I'm trying to tell you.

Are there still a lot of pureblood Indians in Mexico? More than here in the states?
As you know, Sycamore claims Indian blood, but methinks it was probably a french Canadian Apache dancer.

Yeah, I had the same thought, B. Analogies seldom hold up under close scrutiny. But it was too funny to pass up.

Funny cartoon, but what bruce said is a fact.

I firmly believe this one holds up to the closest scrutiny. If we do nothing, the country will change is ways I don't like. That makes it very personal for me. You (collective) may be comfortable with that prospect, but I am not... never will be.

10-4

It will always change. Who is to say that the next group of political appointees are not going to stir things up for you any worse than the last?

Well, I do have good rhythm.

My great grandfather was born in northern Oklahoma, in what was known as the Cherokee Outlet in 1902. I have not been able to find his family's name on the Dawes Rolls, so none of my family can be official citizens of the Cherokee Nation at this point.

One of these days, I'd like to seriously research his family line--and the rest of my mother's family line for that matter. I know very little about it, and the rest of my family is just as clueless.

Excellent point! That's why anyone that truly loves this country and what it stood for, must be constantly vigilant for those that don't.

The most common mistake is to say, my guys won so every thing is OK. It's not... it's not OK for anyone to fuck up this country, regardless of who's side appointed or elected them.

Oh yes.

It's going to change anyway. It's ALWAYS changing.

Those that don't love this country?? That's why so many people have always wanted to come here, in any way that they can--they love what this country really stands for.

No, they love the fact that they can come here and make money to send home to encourage others to come and do the same. I bet few illegals understand anything more about what this country stands for other than a monetary motivation and an attempt to change one form of abject poverty to a lessor form of poverty.

Fuck yeah...that's what pure capitalism is all about. Isn't it great?

As long as we make it ok to shoot them as the try to enter the country illegally, sure. Would they be in season all year round? What's the bag limit?

But what's wrong with making money? I thought capitalism was about making money.

You have no idea what you're talking about. But bigots never do, of course.

Yes it is, but these people and Bush, are not changing it for the better.


They love the money they can make. They love the fact they can move around relatively unimpeded. They love the fact that they can flaunt the law with relative impunity. They love getting free medical care at the expense of others.
But they don't love this country, they are Mexicans with no desire to be Americans. Their allegiance is to a foreign country, which is why they fly a foreign flag.

Don't you love making money? Don't you love moving around relatively unimpeded? That's part of the American Dream.

As far as 'flaunting the law' and 'getting free medical care at the expense of others,' you're buying into the hype. I thought you knew better than that.

Most immigrants to the U.S., illegal or not, want to be Americans, and very much so--if not desperately. Lots of immigrants from all over the world, even their descendents, are still proud of their 'motherland,' and fly the flags. The Irish and Italians flags are an especially common sight.

Oh really. Bigot? Give me a break. Bleeding heart liberals like you will never understand the motivations of illegals.

You have a very simplistic view of the world.

Nope, you don't get any breaks, especially since you're not willing to give them. I understand very well the motivations of the majority of immigrants to the U.S., illegal or legal. You, on the other hand, will never understand, as long as you keep thinking of certain people as prey.

The prey are the US tax payers who are taking it in the ass to support illegals. You make them out to be some kind of victims. I don't buy it. If I had my way I would round them up and dump them all in Iraq. But since I can't we need to figure out how to deal with the problem now. Not pat it on the head. Continuing to feed them, give them free medical care when Americans can't even get decent free medical care is not the answer.

U.S. tax payers are taking it up the ass for many things these days, 'supporting illegals' is not one of them, not by a longshot. Whether or not you believe that many, even most, illegal immigrants are the victims, doesn't make it less true.

That's funny, you saying I have a simplistic view of the world. You want to 'dump them all in Iraq?' Can't get much more simplistic than that.

I wanted to be sure and condense it to something you could understand. If you don't think that the US tax payer is supporting illegals you are deluded, extremely deluded. Do some basic research and see how much we pay for their medical care, hell just for delieveries alone they are breaking our backs, and the average person with health care and insurance are paying for it. Then take a look at how much it is costing the prisons in Southern Calif and other border states to arrest and house these criminals. You have a lot of research to do, so I will leave you to it...:cool:

Think about what you're claiming for a minute, and think about how health care works. Then ask yourself, how can any research produce reliable statistics, showing how much is being spent on--specifically--undocumented immigrants' health care?

(Answer: it can't. That's why there aren't any.)

However, it is a fact (according to the IRS), that undocumented immigrants pay BILLIONS in income taxes, with legit ITINs and false SSNs. I'm fairly certain I've made you aware of this before.

Why do you want to ignore the facts. I will find the links all over if you want. I work in the health care industry. You are kidding yourself if you do not think that illegals are not costing the US tax payers huge sums of money in free health care. This has all been discussed before on previous threads. They do not pay enough into the tax system to offset their costs, no way, no how. The number of illegals who do obtain false SSN's is tiny compared to those that do not.

One Year Of Illegal Alien Health Care Costs Would Pay For Border Barrier
Non-citizens cost billions per year in uninsured health care.

Non-citizens are putting the hurt on our hospitals. A study by the Florida Hospital Association estimates that uninsured non-citizens cost the state's hospitals an average of $63,612 per patient last year.

The tab is rising as the number of immigrants continues to swell from coast to coast. The American Hospital Association reported that its member facilities provided $21 billion in uncompensated health-care services last year.

While not all those costs can be attributed to undocumented aliens, new Census data show that non-citizens are, by far, this country's largest group of uninsured residents — 43 percent of the total.

The costs of health care are just one way that low skilled low wage immigrant non-citizens cost the US economy and citizens money. Keep in mind that these figures above underestimate even the medical costs of low skilled immigrants because millions of illegals were granted citizenship thru amnesties and a large portion of them are uninsured. Also, the costs above do not include costs at government clinics and private practices or the costs of the US citizen children who are born in the United States to illegal aliens whose parents use Medicaid and other government programs to pay their health care. Even with this narrow definition on the costs of low skilled immigrants for health care the cost for less than a single year of paying the health care of non-citizens would pay for a barrier to keep illegal aliens from crossing into the United States from Mexico. Various cost estimates (see here and here and here) for the West Bank-Israel fence structure , if extrapolated to the longer US border with Mexico, suggest that the US could stop the flow of illegal aliens from Mexico for a cost of between $2 billion and $8 billion dollars. The range of cost estimates reflects the fact that the Israelis are building more and less formidable barriers in different sections depending on perceived risk. If we go for the more deluxe barrier structure for the entire border it would still cost less than a single year of uninsured and unpaid health care bills run up by non-citizens living within the US borders.

Illegal Immigration and Public Health

The impact of immigration on our public health is often overlooked. Although millions of visitors for tourism and business come every year, the foreign population of special concern is illegal residents, who come most often from countries with endemic health problems and less developed health care. They are of greatest consequence because they are responsible for a disproportionate share of serious public health problems, are living among us for extended periods of time, and often are dependent on U.S. health care services.

Public Health Risks
Because illegal immigrants, unlike those who are legally admitted for permanent residence, undergo no medical screening to assure that they are not bearing contagious diseases, the rapidly swelling population of illegal aliens in our country has also set off a resurgence of contagious diseases that had been totally or nearly eradicated by our public health system.

According to Dr. Laurence Nickey, director of the El Paso heath district “Contagious diseases that are generally considered to have been controlled in the United States are readily evident along the border ... The incidence of tuberculosis in El Paso County is twice that of the U.S. rate. Dr. Nickey also states that leprosy, which is considered by most Americans to be a disease of the Third World, is readily evident along the U.S.-Mexico border and that dysentery is several times the U.S. rate ... People have come to the border for economic opportunities, but the necessary sewage treatment facilities, public water systems, environmental enforcement, and medical care have not been made available to them, causing a severe risk to health and well being of people on both sides of the border.”1

“The pork tapeworm, which thrives in Latin America and Mexico, is showing up along the U.S. border, threatening to ravage victims with symptoms ranging from seizures to death. ... The same [Mexican] underclass has migrated north to find jobs on the border, bringing the parasite and the sickness—cysticercosis—its eggs can cause[.] Cysts that form around the larvae usually lodge in the brain and destroy tissue, causing hallucinations, speech and vision problems, severe headaches, strokes, epileptic seizures, and in rare cases death.”2

The problem, however, is not confined to the border region, as illegal immigrants have rapidly spread across the country into many new economic sectors such as food processing, construction, and hospitality services.

Typhoid struck Silver Spring, Maryland, in 1992 when an immigrant from the Third World (who had been working in food service in the United States for almost two years) transmitted the bacteria through food at the McDonald’s where she worked. River blindness, malaria, and guinea worm, have all been brought to Northern Virginia by immigration.3

"By default, we grant health passes to illegal aliens. Yet many illegal aliens harbor fatal diseases that American medicine fought and vanquished long ago, such as drug-resistant tuberculosis, malaria, leprosy, plague, polio, dengue, and Chagas disease."

“What is unseen is their [illegal aliens’] free medical care that has degraded and closed some of America’s finest emergency medical facilities, and caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals are closing their doors.”

—Madeleine Peiner Cosman, Ph.D., Esq. “Illegal Aliens and American Medicine,” Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, Spring 2005


Contrary to common belief, tuberculosis (TB) has not been wiped out in the United States, mostly due to illegal migration. In 1995, there was an outbreak of TB in an Alexandria high school, when 36 high-school students caught the disease from a foreign student.4 The four greatest immigrant magnet states have over half the TB cases in the U.S.5 In 1992, 27 percent of the TB cases in the United States were among the foreign-born; in California, it was 61 percent of the cases; in Hawaii, 83 percent; and in Washington state, 46 percent. The Queens, New York, health department attributed 81 percent of new TB cases in 2001 to immigrants.

Costs of Medical Care
Immigrants are often uninsured and underinsured. Forty-three percent of noncitizens under 65 have no health insurance. That means there are 9.4 million uninsured immigrants, a majority of whom are in the country illegally, constituting 15 percent of the total uninsured in the nation in the mid-1990s.6 The cost of the medical care of these uninsured immigrants is passed onto the taxpayer, and strains the financial stability of the health care community.

Another problem is immigrants’ use of hospital and emergency services rather than preventative medical care. For example, utilization rate of hospitals and clinics by illegal aliens (29 percent) is more than twice the rate of the overall U.S. population (11 percent).7

As a result, the costs of medical care for immigrants are staggering. The estimated cost of unreimbursed medical care in 2004 in California was about $1.4 billion per year. In Texas, the estimated cost was about $.85 billion, and in Arizona the comparable estimate was $.4 billion per year.8

One of the frequent costs to U.S. taxpayers is delivery of babies to illegal alien mothers. A California study put the number of these anchor baby deliveries in the state in 1994 at 74,987, at a cost of $215 million. At that time, those births constituted 36 percent of all Medi-Cal births, and they have grown now to substantially more than half or the annual Medi-Cal budget. In 2003, 70 percent of the 2,300 babies born in San Joaquin General Hospital’s maternity ward were anchor babies. Medical in 2003 had 760,000 illegal alien beneficiaries, up from 2002, when there were 470,000.9

Endnotes
Statement on behalf of the American Medical Association to the Committee on Public Works and Transportation, U.S. House of Representatives, May 7, 1991.
Houston Chronicle, November 3, 1992.
Influx of Exotic Diseases Keep Doctors Hopping,” Fairfax Journal, May 8, 1992.
"Health officials say there is a correlation between increases in tuberculosis cases in recent years and the influx of residents from countries where disease prevention is substandard.” “36 Students in Alexandria Test Positive for TB Exposure,” Washington Post, June 8, 1995.
"Taking it to the Streets" Los Angeles Times, October 2, 1993.
Employee Benefit Research Group study, January 1995. “The study suggests the very high degree to which that population [illegal aliens] is contributing to uncompensated costs.” EBRI President Dallas Salisbury, Washington Post, January 25, 1995.
Assessment of Potential Impact of Undocumented Person on National Health Reform, National Health Foundation, April 14, 1993.
See FAIR publications.
Madeleine Peiner Cosman, Ph.D., Esq. “Illegal Aliens and American Medicine,” Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, Spring 2005.

Way to long to post:

http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf
{well footnoted}

Illegal immigrants are responsible for roughly 20 percent of the $2 billion in unreimbursed care that Southern California hospitals deliver each year. Even if you consider that factor, you have to conclude that it's the larger problem of just simply having so many uninsured patients that is a key driver of rising hospital costs.

In order to receive federal Medicare and Medicaid payments, a hospital must agree to treat and stabilize everybody who shows up to a hospital ER regardless of their ability to pay or their immigration status. That means undocumented immigrants who show up at the emergency room will receive treatment regardless of their immigration status or whether they're insured. But so will legal immigrants, naturalized citizens and native-born Americans.

http://www.hasc.org/lott.cfm?ID=73623

How Much Do Illegal Aliens Cost U.S. Taxpayers?


July 12, 2005- Federal, state and local governments spend billions of dollars each year educating, caring for and incarcerating illegal immigrants. Until the federal government fortifies the border, taxpayers will have to continue to foot the bill for a variety of social services offered to illegals.



Education: Taxpayers are being forced to pay for the schooling of the children of illegal immigrants.



Illegal immigrants who take low-paying jobs don't pay enough in taxes, if they pay at all, to reimburse taxpayers the $5,000-plus annually it takes to educate each of their children.


The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states $7.4 billion annually-- enough to buy a computer for every junior high student nationwide.


In California, the $2.2 billion spent on the education of the children of illegal immigrants for one year could:
Pay the salaries of 41, 764 teachers, or 14 percent of California's teachers.
Pay for California's class sizes to remain capped at 20 students for a year, with $300 million to spare.
Buy books, computers, and other instructional equipment for 346, 689 classrooms, 79 percent of all classrooms in California.
Fully fund California 's free lunch program for almost two years.


Emergency Health Care: Taxpayers are forced to provide emergency health care for illegal aliens and their children who do not have insurance.



Emergency health care for illegal aliens along the southwestern border is already costing area hospitals $200 million a year, with perhaps another $100 million in extended care costs.


Hospitals must provide emergency treatment to all who walk through the door, regardless of their citizenship status or ability to pay. In 2001, America 's hospitals provided nearly $21 billion in uncompensated health care services.


Hospitals in California rank first in the country in expenditures for providing health care to illegal immigrants.


The Center for Medicaid Services at the Dept. of Health and Human Services reported that for FY 2001, the health care costs for illegal immigrants in California were over $648 million. California paid 47 percent of these costs, or $304,785,368, for this mandate.


Population Crisis: In California, we are in the midst of a population crisis that is already affecting every aspect of life in our state and will continue to get worse.



An estimated 7 million illegal immigrants were residing in the United States in January 2000. This is double the size of the illegal immigrant population in January 1990 and constitutes 2.5 percent of the total U.S. population of just over 281 million.


More than one third of the 3.5 million total increase in illegal immigration since 1990 occurred in California and Texas.


California has the highest number of illegal immigrants residing in its borders. The estimated number of illegal alien residents in California was about 2.2 million, or nearly 32 percent of the total number of illegal immigrants in the United States.


Crime: Fifteen percent of California 's prison inmates are undocumented aliens, costing the state more than $500 million annually.



Welfare and Government Assistance: Fraudulent Social Security cards, driver's licenses and birth certificates are being bought by thousands of illegal immigrants each year. These false documents are used by individuals to get millions of dollars worth of welfare, public housing and Social Security benefits.

http://www.house.gov/garymiller/IllegalsCost2005.html

Sorry, biased sources like the conservative "Journal of the American Physicians and Surgeons" and extreme-rightie Congressman Gary Miller don't count.

You're right, this has all been discussed on previous threads, even before your time here.

Millions of undocumented immigrants have ITINs. And just because you don't believe that undocumented immigrants pay enough into the tax system, doesn't make it untrue.

What is better? That is just opinion, even though I highly disagree with Bush on his stance on immigration for other reasons.

Oh please, I work with Mexican immigrants and most are here to feed their families, not to flaunt their immunity or take our wealth. Most just want to achieve the American dream. You even said it yourself.

http://cellar.org/showpost.php?p=366418&postcount=67
Yet somehow this is different for Mexicans?

If my family was starving in Mexico and I had to come to the US illegally to not see them starve, I would. It is a conflict of interests, not a good versus evil situation.

You are making a huge assumption. How do you know that every illegal Mexican immigrant has no desire to be American? You are taking a minority and saying that every Mexican immigrant does that, which is flawed logic.

Also, I am sure many Mexicans do not want to join American culture but you can find that with almost every immigrant group. I've been in other highly immigrant influenced areas and they feel like a totally different country and it also seems that they also have no desire to become Americans as well.

There is no Mexican conspiracy to take advantage of Americans, the majority just want to feed their kids since there are no jobs in Mexico which creates a huge conflict of interests.

And the reverse of that statement does not make yours true either. Back it up. Let me guess, you will find some left wing pro-immigrant site to find your sources.


The American Medical Association to the Committee on Public Works and Transportation, U.S. House of Representatives; Los Angeles Times; Washington Post; Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons are hardly right-wing sources.

Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons is indeed right wing. You quoted Rep. Gary Miller's page specifically, from the U.S. House of Representatives' site--not the House in general.

I don't see your links to the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post. I have a feeling I've seen the ones you're talking about, though. Post 'em so I can see if they're the ones I'm thinking of.

What is 'The American Medical Association to the Committee on Public Works and Transportation?' The only place I see that is here:

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServe...suecenters64bf

and that site is about as biased as you can get.

I did--the IRS.

Better is where every able bodied adult citizen has a job that pays a living wage.
Are they legal? If so, God bless them, I hope they do well. If not, they are criminals and thieves. My employer doesn't hire non-citizen for my area.
No, for illegals of every stripe.
Legal=good, illegal=bad, in this situation. Conflict of interests for sure, criminals interests vs American interests.
You a making a flawed assumption. Nobody can speak for every illegal because that's impossible. We, even bluecuracao, speak in generalities because it's the only way the subject can be discussed at all. So don't pull the nit pic shit, ok?
Is that so, totally different country... hmm, are the road signs in English? I'd love to go there, just to get away from McBurgers, Quicky mart, Dairy twirl and pizza chains.
Of the groups of immigrants that came legally, the non-criminals, most made every effort to become Americans, become part in the social and political fabric. Even when the settled in areas with people from their home area of the world, they made sure their kids learned English, recited the Pledge of Allegiance with pride and flew the American flag.
It's after assimilating for generations, the spawn of these immigrants put foreign flag decals on their cars. Their forefathers are doing 78 rpm in their graves.
It would appear you're wrong again, although a conspiracy by Mexicans would be more appropriate than a Mexican conspiracy which sort of implies the Mexican government is party to it. Although... on second thought... maybe not.

We all know there are not enough jobs in Mexico. Not even service sector because they are being served here.
I posted before of the Smithsonian article about the Mexican millionaire from NJ, that went back to build 5 clothing factories, each to employ 2500 people. After the first factory was built, the rest were canceled, because he could not find 500 employees. The people he went to help were all here instead of building a decent place to live at home.

If Mexico was stuck in the middle of the ocean, they would probably have a decent economy going, from all those hard working people without an easier out.

So there is no way breaking a law can be justified? Depending on how you look at morals, there are situations where you can justify coming to America illegally, not letting your family starve for one.

There is a difference from taking a majority view and making a generalization and taking a minority view and making a generalization. Saying that a majority of Mexicans do not want to become Americans is a big stretch.


That is probably true for almost all non-refugee Americans but when people are coming to America at the rate that Hispanics are, it is very hard to think that there isn't a huge problem there.

Yes, 14 million Mexicans got together to conspire how they were going to illegally cross the Mexican-American border to mock Americans with their immunity. But by that implication, you can say all the car thieves conspired to take our cars and all the pickpockets conspired to take our wallets. So many conspiracies!

Is this a one time thing or a common occurrence? You also can not simply a problem so complex into something so simple. If it was so easy to build a decent place to live, every country would be a first world country. Duck_duck type thinking doesn't work in real life.

So, your opinion is correct because you are on the left, and actual research doesn't count for anything because you've decided that a peer reviewed journal is too conservative.

Exactly what standard of proof are you looking for here?

I think I have an argument for illegal immigration that's difficult to refute, but I'm hesitant to let the left have it. Nah ... they won't use it anyway.

You fucking tease...out with it. :)

"God Said So."

The Jews were the first illegal immigrants. God told them there was a land of milk and honey over there that way, go kill or force out everybody living there now, and it's yours.

What 'actual' research? The materials quoted from the Journal of the American Physicians and Surgeons are rife with alarmist, extremist opinion, language, and conjecture. The sources are shaky at best. Anyone can write a commentary piece with made-up numbers, and put official-seeming footnotes in it. And then the footnotes turn out to be from the Op-Ed section of whatever newspaper they're sourcing, or from another website with the same extremist political agenda and twisted 'facts.'

I don't think you answered the question Blue, what you are saying could be true of virtually any cite.

No, what I said is not true of virtually any cite. That's why footnotes are usually seen as authoritative and fact-based--they're supposed to be, when they're supporting the credibility of written work.

I worked for the FL Ag system in multiple capacities and other industries in FL and CA where illegals worked, along side them and in administration and management.
That I know it for a fact makes it a untrue.

Know what for a fact?

They do not pay taxes.