Dear Cellar
 

I think we need a Dear Abby thread, but, instead of one Abby, the advice could come from many Cellarites.

It could be interesting. What do you think?

Ethical?
 

I'll go first.

Dear Cellar,
An independent engineering consultant that I've worked on a project with for a few years made me this offer: If I refer any new work to him, he'll send 10% of any money he makes from that job back to me as a referral fee. That means, since he makes $150/hr, that I would get $15 for each hour that he works on that project, for doing essentially nothing.

Do you feel that this is ethical?

Signed HLJ

It depends--is he less qualified than other people you might otherwise give the work to?

No, but it makes the Bush folks proud. :bolt:

Dear HLJ,

In the contracting world, not only is this not unethical...it is standard practice and highly beneficial to you. Your world, just optimized. I'm really surprised that you have been referring clients for free...but hey..just do it. You may also do that when you need work from people that are over-loaded and bogged down, or...they hate that client (want to fire their client for personal reasons) but don't want to just give them away. So they give them to someone known for a referral fee. Oh and...this is not illegal if you were wondering. We have an entire dept. based on all the referrals here, so it is someones job to facillitate and keep track of all of them.

Signed,
The Cellar Cicero


ps...I would just wait for the whole job to finish and cut from the net instead of money per hour.

Would doing this violate any 'Standards of Integrity' policy's that your current employer has in place?

If so...weigh your options.

It isn't unethical, because whoever you refer still has the final decision as to whether or not to hire the guy. A referral is not the same as you having final decision making authority, and channeling business to him in order to get a kickback.

Dear Cellar,
Thanks for the feedback. I guess there are two different situations: 1) I refer client to "Bob" and Bob pays me a referral fee; 2) I hire or contract with Bob and Bob pays me a fee.

Situation 1 is perfectly normal, legal, etc.

Situation 2 is not.

Is this how you see it?

Dear HLJ, You have two situations here. One is about making money anyway that you can at every opportunity, that is not unethical, it is about survival. The other is about using your position in a company for personal gain, on company time, basically manipulating the system behind the scenes, based on business dealings on company time for personal gain. This is blatantly unethical.

Now if you were to deal with referrals outside of company time, based on business dealings off company time, off company property (phones, computers, blackberry's, etc...) then there is no problem.

IMHO there MUST be a clear delineation between what you do and profit from at work for personal gain, and what your work environment is expecting you to do for them on personal time. That includes any and all expectations of monetary reimbursement based upon business dealings with the said previous company on company time.

IMHO, you are walking an ethical and potentially legal tightrope...

M - I agree. However, a certain amount of what I do is considered marketing or networking, and part of that is making contacts, helping people out, etc.

So if Company A calls me and says, "We're looking for a someone who can do XXX permitting," and I say, "Call 'Bob,' I've worked with him in the past and he's always done a good job," I'm helping out Company A, thereby incurring their good will (assuming 'Bob' does a good job) and potentially bringing in future jobs for us. I'm also helping Bob by bringing him work.

In addition, I get paid the same if I work 40 hours per week or 60 hours per week, and I almost always work more than 40 hours per week, so if I spend a few minutes on the above scenario it's not costing the company anything. In other words, there is no clear delineation between company time and personal time.

Weren't some university Student Loan advisers recently hurt by this sort of thing?

IIRC, they were suggesting certain loan companies over others. Companies that used them as consultants from time to time. It's not exactly the same situation, but it's close enough to make feel iffy about it.

Dear Ethical,

If he has to "bid" the job along with others and he gets it, there's should be no problem. What he does with his money is entirely up to him.

Perry Winkle, that was my first thought. The student loan fiasco has been a nightmare. Though most FA administrators are ethical (to the point of it being painful) it takes a few situations like that to dirty the whole system in the eyes of the world. A dirty business in the eyes of the world is not successful, whether it's fair or not.

They've even gone so far as to tell us that we must avoid the "perception" of impropriety and that we will be viewed as guilty until proven innocent. This is a slap in the face for so many hard-working and honest people, but that's the result of less than ethical business deals.

Of course, huge companies are built on less than ethical. Ethics sometimes come with a personal price in terms of monetary or related gains, but having a clear conscience is a much better way to go through life.

Just my two cents from another side of the issue. Of course, my situation involves federal funding, and we are obligated to uphold the integrity of the programs. But, you wouldn't have asked if it didn't give you some sort of creepy-crawly feeling.

I see your point but I think you have to be careful to document work time and personal time in those situations. I think you might have a hard time if say in the middle of a day you are one minute on the clock and the next minute off the clock, then back on again.

On the referal situation I think that is entirely a different situation. People do that all the time. You just don't want to be in a situation where someone could accuse you of using company contacts for personal ($$$) gain that had not been previously santioned by the company.

:2cents:

Ethics? Ithn't it in England, near Thuthics and Middlethics?

HLJ,

1) although you only have the agreement with him always give people 2 referral choices thus removing the onus from you if the experience is not up to the client's expectations.
2) i would suggest that although you might make less money, ask for a flat referral fee rather than a production related fee. If clients find out you are paid more if the work takes longer they might incorrectly conclude that you are sending them to the guy who works slower just to pad your own pocket - credibility goes up in smoke.

3) i don't believe this is an ethical dilemma at all. If it works for you, then go for it. I personally choose to decline all referral fees and make that clear to my clients because i have found they appreciate that i have a choice but have chosen to only work for them. I work 100% referral myself and it has worked very well. i make very clear to clients that i don't accept pay for anything i do other than my practice - referrals, coaching, corporate HR consulting are all done out of good will. that discussion results in higher profits from increased referrals so it isn't like i'm a saint or anything.

If you post a letter in here you may want to use the anonymous log-on.
Those like lookout, bruce, lj and others relish using anything you tell about yourself against you every chance they get.
http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=15141

isn't youtube waiting for you? feckin' paranoid loser.

since when do business and ethics go together in the real world?

every single day if you choose to deal with ethical business people.

rk - That's not a bad idea, even if people just use it for privacy reasons. Is there an existing guest or other generic logon?

HLJ-
Talk to an accountant. Figure out which scenario is best on your wallet.

If you are really planning to do it...you need to find out what to claim and what not anyway. (and the resposibilty that falls on others in each scenario)

What is your issue with YT, I have not made a video in ages?
But then again, I am trying to apply logic to a stalker's thinking.

Dear Cellar,
Mike, a friend of a friend, recently lost his job and has been doing some tree work for me. Mike has a job interview in a few days and I'm tempted to recommend to him that he cut his hair (he has a pony tail) for the interview, as I feel that it would increase his chances of getting hired.

I would appreciate your input on this. Would I be out of line to make that suggestion?

Thanks,
HLJ

A long time ago I worked for a friend of mine in a sales environment. I hit a serious slump where I couldn't sell anything to anyone. The ups just didn't stick. He suggested I shave my moustache and goatee to help me sell more. I laughed it off. A week later he said the same thing and I blew him off. A week later he sat me down and pointed out that my personality made me a natural for a certain niche we were hitting but my shaved head + facial hair was possibly turning off the same niche client. I was pissed off but gave in two days later. I went on a 6 month tear where I literally was the top salesperson in every category we measured there. Did shaving make me a better sales person? No. Did it make me more approachable for the prospective client? Apparently. Was I pissed at my friend? Only until I realized he was right.

Back in the day, we all told my brother-in-law again and again and again to cut his hair if he wanted to get a real job. He denied that such a thing would really make a difference. He went to interview after interview, yet remained unemployed for somewhere between 6 months to a year. He finally cut his hair, and had a job offer one week later. (Unlike lookout, though, he remained pissed at us and the judgmental society we live in for a long while after that.)

Edit: As to your actual question, would it be appropriate for you to mention it to him... if he is a good friend and not just an acquaintance, I think it would be fine to mention it in a friendly manner. Do not expect him to listen, however, until you've told him at least a few more times. One way to bring it up might be to ask what sort of a job it is --> what sort of office environment is it --> oh, conservative you say? Hmm...

Most don't care about hair, but if he has a wacky name he may as well forget it! ;)

Our realtor referred a mortgage broker. I'm sure the realtor got a kick-back. I hope he did! It was still our choice to go with that broker or not.

That broker presented us with several loan options. I'm certain that he will get a kick-back from whichever one we choose. I hope he does. It will still be our choice to use that loan, or to go hunting on our own to find a better loan.

The referral kick-back isn't the same thing as a bribe to a purchasing agent, where the payment is quid-pro-quo for securing a contract. Instead, the party making the payment is paying to jump to the front of the line, and be the first to make an offer to the client, who may or may not choose to use that service.

He has a very common last name: Hunt

This was my approach:

Me: Mike, do you have to put a shirt and tie on for the interview?

Mike: No, I'll shave and put on a nice shirt, but no tie.

Me: How long have you had that pony tail?

Mike: Since the second grade.

Me: Ah, I see.

That was the end of it.

What's the job? If he want to be a roadie, for example, it might help...

I think it's some kind of production work. They probably won't care too much, but it's a tight job market, so everything counts in small amounts.

Looking too white-collar might be counter-productive.

Depends on the job and what the job entails as well as who is the employer. More info please.

That's all I know. Thanks for the input.