Perspective on the US from an expat working in China
 

I'll do my best to keep this brief (more from the fact I'm trying to do this during my lunch break, rather than spare the reader my rambling message) ;-)

After living in China for the past 1.5 years on a work assignment for my company, I've gained a lot of insight into how the US is perceived abroad, my owns gripes against my homeland, and even opened my eyes to a lot of the misperceptions of China. (I'll save perspective on China for some other post).

The strangest part is that many of these points I've already known from my time in the US, but actually living this way has really driven the point home.

First part... media. While I miss a few programs, the biggest thing I love being away from is the inundation of media-for-the-masses. I can't tell you how relieved I was to be AWAY from the Anna Nicole and OJ Simpson media frenzies. As an American I felt embarrassed that they were covered at all. While in China I mostly read media from Hong Kong and Australia, and they tend to focus more on issues that really matter. World economy, the war in Iraq, corruption, etc etc. OJ and Anna were a single headline, for a single day, then the world moved on. Whenever I read American headlines I want to scream at every last American, "Are you blind?? Can't you see there are real issues that need attention?"

Which brings me to the 2nd point... the lazy, short-sighted nature of Americans. The rest of the world is catching up... FAST. India, Korea, and China is full of people that are motivated to do whatever it takes to get to the top. In college I was a software guy. Like all software guys I looked on with detest as software projects moved from highly skilled American coders to crappy Indian firms that churned out... crap. But that's not the reality for most out-sourcing. The reality now is that jobs being moved overseas are being done as well or better by younger kids that are DRIVEN to get ahead.

You may get angry when your Dell support agent has a terrible accent. But you don't complain when your neighborhood pizza house sets up an online ordering service built by Indians, and you pay pocket change to have your taxes completed handled online for you... by a guy you never realized was sitting in Mumbai.

The problem is Americans are lazy. They don't want to study hard or work hard. We've built a public education system designed to make no one "feel bad" if they get a low score, so everyone gets A's. In China and Japan, the jocks are the least popular guys in school. If you're the kid that has your name published at the top of the list every year for top score you're the most popular guy in school.

As I interview new engineers in China, I actually have to FIGHT to keep them from trying to work 12+ hours a day. They feel if they don't keep their skills on the cutting edge then they'll fall behind in the industry, and get walked over. And that's the reason why so much R&D isn't done in the US anymore, it's all going overseas. Currently the US has innovation, but how much longer can that keep up as more and more engineering positions move overseas?

Why do we make it so hard for educated people to emigrate to the US, but roll out the red-carpet for poor Mexicans to flood across the border? If we want to stay competitive we NEED to get the educated people moving to the US, not lock them out where they'll build up a competitor overseas.

Third point... the political system is a MESS. Seriously. The system worked fantastically 300 years ago when it was first set up. But in the modern world it's a travesty when you have a mass of Neanderthals able to vote someone into positions of power, and you have special interest groups able to buy political clout to get things put into law.

It's sad that things that should be a no-brainer, like net-neutrality, have to resort to getting a mob of people FIGHTING to keep it from happening? Shouldn't the government be able to realize what's the RIGHT thing to do, and just do it?

I used to think Bill Hicks was a coot. Now I think he was a visionary.

Fourth... not a single item, but a dumping ground for minor gripes...
- American eating habits are awful folks. Seriously. Too big, too greasy.
- We always preach about "family values", but honestly it's the farthest thing from reality. We're only OK at maintaining the core family, but for most people the extended family isn't anything resembling the tight-knit sense of FAMILY that I see in China.
- Seriously, we could tone down on the extremism. If you're Christian stop preaching about how you're being oppressed. If you're atheist, stop crying that the world is shoving religion down your throat. Don't put so much violence and sex on TV, and stop crying about all the violence and sex on TV.
- I HATE TIPPING. It's a stupid system, and it needs to be scrapped. If you're a great waiter, then get a job at a good restaurant, and that place should pay you $20-25 dollars an hour. If you're a crappy waiter and you work at Pizza Hut, then you should earn a lousy $8 an hour. The rest of the world has this figured out. Why not the US?
- Not a gripe, just a comment... don't worry so much about consumption. The rest of the world is just finding something to complain about. The Chinese waste WAY more food than any American, and the Japanese buy WAY more crap.

Hrm... I think that's most of it. I'm sure I've missed a few, but it's good enough. And before anyone tries to yell and scream and tell me to "stay the hell out of America if I hate it so much"....

I DO NOT hate the US. I love my country, and trust me, I'm very much looking forward to moving home in 2008/9. If I list out my complaints about China you will see very clearly that choosing between the two is really no choice at all. The US is great, but seriously, we could stand to do a little more introspective soul-searching about what it takes to keep the country great.

I agree completely - it is sickening to watch the local or even the national news anymore. The alternative used to be the cable channels, but nowadays they lean so far to one side or the other, its tough to stomach them anymore too. Not just the stations or channels themselves, but also the anchors. They should be required to wear a button or a hat or something that lets you know their political stance. The only alternative for real news is on the net and thats becoming a crapshoot! Getting the information from someone with integrity seems relatively impossible if your views are somewhere in "the middle." If you lean way right - you have Rush, way left log onto kos... On top of that all the misinformation they spew... Very unfortunate. This has and will continue to hurt the US in the long run.

The vast majority of Americans are sheep - we are, as a whole, fat & happy. We want what we want and we want it right now. The worst of us seem to have much more than the best in many countries, and have it, relatively speaking, "given to" them. Our system is set up so that no one fails - everyone gets a do over and its all about how it makes you feel, not what it "should be." (no, I am not gonna define should be nor say according to whom. Just a rant.)


Pretty much sums up my opinion on our system of electing leaders. Thank goodness we don't simply use a majority vote - In that respect it could be much worse.

Seems no matter how hard I try, even with my own kids, their is always something else to do, or a party, or a school event - something that eats into the time I try to get my family to spend with my parents. The other thing that seems to be a factor here is that we are so much more spread out now. Family is hours away and that makes it so much more difficult to achieve the sense of unity that I would prefer to have. I wonder now, is this a cultural issue or really a degradation of the family unit due to a lack of conviction or values?


Amen!!! I have my religion, I'm sure you have yours or a lack thereof (your choice) - It's great that we live in a country that affords us so many choices and options to live and believe openly what we think and believe. I agree that the vocal minority is getting out of hand though. In some cases they need to be heard, but too many times it simply gets glorified and causes more issues than needed.

I find this perspective is very revealing and disheartening at the same time, at least for me it is. It almost ties into several other threads circulating now and some of the things that many of us as Americans are blind to.
Thoughts? Opinions?

Its a cultural issue. America is much more nomadic when it comes to families than other cultures. I don't know how much I consider this a bad thing though, all the rest I'm pretty much on board with.

I see the separation of family as a bad thing.
But I was the one to leave - my Grandad, parents, sister and family and brother and wife all live in the same town, he town I grew up in.

But I am daughter to parents who moved 60 miles away from their parents. I am sister to a woman who puts obstacles in the way of family get-togethers, I am sister to a brother who appreciates private in-jokes and I am niece to a man who went to the other side of the world.

"Happiness is having a large, loving, caring, close-knit family in another city."

- George Burns

A very good read Riddil. I'm surprised you haven't been castigated for it.

As a Canadian (ex Brit) looking in from the outside I would agree with much of what you say but it isn't only the U.S. that has that mentality. Quebec has a high percentage of idle people who believe the world owes them a living.

I have come to the conclusion this mentality arose about 30 years ago when teaching went to the wall. The end result is that todays' crop of students have parents that were not properly educated and consequently have no guidance as it's left to the schools to bring up children and they are out of their scope in trying to do so.

:welcome:

Welcome Beevee!

The slacker syndrome is quite common in Australia too. I think the causes are deeper and more complex that just the changes to education, though.
I too am surprised by the lack of strongly worded denials. I guess folks here must be seeing a fair bit of truth in this description, uncomfortable though it must be. And as an ex-pat Australian, I must say 90% of it is 90% true about Australia too.

So what this all means is that western cultures should stop taking the piss out of and being scared of eastern cultures and think about some of the positive aspects and bringing them on board?

Or maybe it all just means things are different and different cultures value different things?

Speaking for myself and my family I don't think we could get any more close knit even if we tried. A few of my cousins have moved OS but they come back for xmas and weddings etc and we all still keep in touch. We don't all live in the same town either, but where I live is where the majority of us still reside. I'm closer to one of my cousins that lives in Germany than I am a few that live a lot closer. I think that while the internet and technology has been blamed for breaking down families, I believe it's also good for keeping families together. I agree that most families seem to be falling apart though. I know some people who have never even met their cousins, and I think that is really really weird.

I strongly disagree that the notion of tipping is crap! :mad2:

And....

Yes, China is coming. Don't be fearful though. Because there is nothing at this point that you can do to improve our performance or hinder theirs.

Besides that, they are pretty interesting and friendly people. :lol:

Until their navy gets up to speed anyway

The strangest thing of the whole idea of Asia developing is that no one in the US has a real clue what that means for Asia and the US.

Maybe it's just denial.

Wow, I'm pretty surprised too that I wasn't roasted for my comments. I was sure there were a few opinions that would certainly rile a few people the wrong way. The strongest reaction I got was for my tipping complaint. Not too shabby overall. :D

But, before I seem too negative about the family thing... I also think that the family structure is changing as a part of necessity. 100's of years ago the life expectancy wasn't very stable. You NEEDED a strong family because if the harvest was bad this year, or your dad suddenly caught the plague then you had to fall back on your extended family just to survive. That's no longer the reality in the modern world.

Also, divorce is a culturally new phenomenon. With the onset of divorce you get REALLY confusing family structures, and step-kids and step-parents aren't ever fully integrated into their new extended families.

I think it's a reality of prosperity and changing times. While I think it's GREAT there are still stories like Aliantha's, the reality is that it's not a common story any more.

So, it may be a little sad for nostalgic reasons, but I still think it's the future. I'm sure in 50 years the Chinese system will mimic the American family. And it's being helped along with the current out-of-control relocation that's going on in China as families splinter and move all over the country to find the best factory to work in.

My point wasn't to say we need to fix it... rather we need to accept the reality that "family values" is something we've moved away from, and in most cases we count ourselves lucky if the immediate family structure isn't in tatters.

Better to accept the reality, than to listen to another politician's sound-bite for how they are "defending American family values".

Pfft.

Oh, and Slang, I TOTALLY disagree with you about the idea that, "China is coming and there's nothing we can do about it"... (well, I also disagree about the tipping thing, but *shrug*) ;)

I hate speaking in metaphors... but... This really follows a sports metaphor. Just 30 years ago the US was the biggest, baddest team in town. It's parallel to what would happen if your local college basketball team came out and started playing all the High School teams in the area. They'd crush everyone without trying. Occasionally there'd be a close game, but in the end it always ends in victory.

Actually, I don't need to speak metaphorically... this is EXACTLY what happened to the US Olympic basketball team. We used to send our pro's and laugh at the rest of the world as we waltzed to a gold medal. Last time we had to fight to come away with a bronze.

What's true for basketball is also true for business. They're both competition. If you don't pay attention to what your competition is doing you get trounced. It's a defeatist attitude to say, "I guess the rest of the world is getting better. We're just going to lose sometimes. Ah well."

But that's my point overall... American's have, in general, a defeatist attitude. Or if you think "defeatist" is too strong, you can say it's "too accepting" of an attitude.

To be a winner you can't have the mentality, "sometimes everyone wins. I hope it's my turn this time."... you need to be hungry. So while American students are home playing Xbox, Chinese and Japanese students are going to the 2nd session schools. While Asian school systems are finding ways to make the curriculum harder and harder, the American system is finding ways to pad the grades even more, and include more fluff subjects.

Yeah, America won't crumble and fall. But Rome didn't fall in a day either. What's in our future is to become the next England. Everyone knows where we are on the map, and everyone thinks we have funny sounding accents, but we'll be side-lined as the rest of the world calls the shots.

On the slacker syndrome, there is another aspect of it which occurred to me after posting. Many people in the west are starting to feel that they have "enough" material wealth, and extra effort is not best put into working more so as to earn and accumulate more. Rather, a greater return is gained from increasing leisure time.
I believe the trendy word for this is down-shifting. I think it is part of the reason for westerners being in general less motivated than others.
When was the last time that westerners faced widespread hunger? The great depression? and before that? Ages ago. We haven't even had a seriously threatening war for 60 years. We've become complacent.
By comparison, China in particular has had many periods of shortage, famine and internal war in the last hundred years. Things are good now but the culture still carries the urgency of the hard times. I think this also explains part of the difference.

Also some people are just plain lazy. Whatchya gonna do?

On families, there is also the matter of the shrinking size of families. Previously, families might easily have six or more children, but now this is pretty much the exception. It is easier to keep bonds with your six (19th C) siblings than with your six (21st C) cousins.
And in the past, you had a lot more cousins, too. If you had, say, 30, even if you were in fairly close touch with 10 or so, thats still a big network.
I have one brother, three cousins, two niece/nephews, two step niece/nephews, three step-step nephews ... but I'm only in regular touch with the first on this list. The others are just too distant (socio-psychologically) to feel connected to.

Which brings me back to China. I know the one-child policy is not enforced uniformly, but many people do end up having just one child. These children of course have no siblings, and will have no siblings-in-law. The next generation will have no cousins or aunts or uncles. As Riddil notes, Chinese society has very strong family ties, and also I believe that a lot of Chinese business is done through family connections. I wonder what will become of Chinese society when the long term effects of the one-child policy begin to bite. Any guesses anyone?

First I'd like to say that the mad face for the tipping comment was a joke. I thought it was very funny and laughed for some time after making the post.

What I was trying to do was a part of what the "problem" is here in the US, not taking on the real problems and instead looking at the totally insignificant as a distraction. Even to the point of getting passionate about those insignifcant things.

As for not being able to do anything about China catching up, there isn't much that can be done about the other guy's drive to win the game. If the numbers were even close I'd say....maybe we can beat em'. That's not what I'm thinking now though.

What we need, IMO, is not to beat them at this game but to invent a better game and them beat them at that. The Chinese are surely hungry now and probably will be for many years to come. That's a great thing for them collectively because they have worked for many years to make the gains made in the past 15 years or so. Now they have so much momentum that only they can stop themselves by crashing the machine from within.

What does that mean?

It's not my training or study of societies but I'm guessing that they will fall through the same evolution that the west has. They work, they build, they have more than they need, they get complacent, they decline.

You can tell me how much better life is in the US than in China, I don't know. I'm not talking about the slivers of very rich but for the masses. What percentage of the people are flat broke? How many millions of people would do anything to get ahead? To have a life that is just a fraction of what the middle has here now?

It's my opinion that we arent going to affect that tide of people power in the least. How many Chinese are there? How many Americans ( and I'll say westerners )? The numbers are too great. We need to innovate to the new situation. To create better business arrangements. To scrap or seriously alter those ways that things are done here in the US right now. To re-think learning and working and all productive pursuits.

Not easy, no. We're the God damned United States of effing America for God's sake, we are the innovators! When these times hit the US we come up with better solutions ( for those that accept the new ways ).

I do believe that we'll do well as things get more competetive but not using the "America is the only country in the world" template. Our ways are inefficient and illogical and yet the machine of change here is too slow to compensate for the times.

We need to find different ways to have advantage. Ways that may not even be in the US but may work at making money for Americans.

What are the rules? What are "they" doing? What obstacles do we have? What are the laws, the regs, the methods? How can we outgrow them? How can we invent a better game that we can win at?

It's not a great explaination but that's what I'm looking at. Don't try to beat them, try to come up with a way to work with them that we win ( and they win too ). That's probably not going to happen with a "cookie cutter" old style US company.

The history of China, like very many other places, shows a pattern.
Some lean and hungry (usually nomadic) barbarians burst into an old, corrupt, decaying empire, trounce the demoralized armies, establish themselves as the new elite, and after a few generations of energy, lose their vitality to the seductive pleasures of the courtly life. The people become resentful or apathetic, the emperor indolent, indulgent and isolated, the barons squabble among themselves ... then the hoof-beats are heard coming across the border once more.

And so I smile a little every time I see a fat Chinese person. You're getting soft and luxurious, I think to myself. You're no longer lean and hungry. You've got enough to get by and you've got enough to lose that you won't try anything reckless or desperate. You may outdo me in business but you're not going to nuke the world in an ideological rage. I can share a planet with people like this.

Thanks for cureing my world-view. Yes, the Chinese are busy!!
Hey don't they have an execution van rolling through town now? And there is always this.....

Graphic Photo: Do not look if sensitive.








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So yea...whatever. Yes I've been to China...and I loved it. Hong Kong is awesome...:D

But they also kill people for organs, and are on many human rights watch lists for an extraordinary amount of rapes and killings. Americans are lazy...yes...thank you for expounding on a cliche..but I have also known some Chinese to be ___ ____, and _____.

I like that you are having new experiences in a new place and seem very enthused....but flooding the United States with the "more qualified", I don't think is the answer we are looking for here. I also don't think the answer is to work to get on top of your game for 70 plus hours a week. Maybe Americans don't want to be machines? Maybe they take alot more time out from work for their family. Maybe their wives (like me) worry when they become exhausted black-eyed workaholics because here they (wives) are allowed to complain?

Maybe we watch for signs of an on-coming heart-attack?


Screw it...you seem bent on your view, and I agree with you about education and media, but they certainly are not a model for how to run the United States. And moving masses of skilled workers here is a ridiculous idea, as we already have a melting pot in effect. Maybe not melted with the members you would have but who decides, you? Maybe the people that infused date rape drugs with our kids beads? Maybe those talented guys? Yea...the chinese are smart and quick, I envy that...but don't try to bullshit me about motives.

Regards,
Your average lazy American

i don't care to argue any of you points as there is some validity to each. i will, however, share a little thought that one of my analysts dropped on me a while back.

do you remember in 1998 and 1999 and everyone was convinced that the economy had changed and we were breaking new ground? profits and products didn't matter as much and ideas and potential? upward and onward was inevitable? do you remember how everyone was excited about the potential for careers and companies focussed exclusively on technology? Do you remember how much more excited and enthusiastic as tech jobs started paying more and more in the buildup to January 1st, 2000?

What happened on January 2nd? A lot of the enthrallment with that world and paradigm dissolved because reality had set back in. a new year had come and the world didn't end. tech jobs were just that - tech jobs. many of the guys who had uprooted their families and bet the farm on the potential of the field were devastated when suddenly they weren't so highly valued in the market place. the big important day had come and gone and it left us with only reality. guys who used to make $25/hour who then got $125/hour were suddenly back to $35/hour. companies folded. careers and families disrupted.

Anyway, there has been an awful lot of money flooding into chinese investments. institutional money. emerging markets funds. a lot of you in your 401K's. Look at the number of regional/sector funds and ETF's have popped up. China is full of growth, growth, growth. everything is getting prettier and prettier.

I wonder is there some reason that the Chinese government might want to polish the exterior? Is there some event set to take place in the near future? Is there some date down the road that is going to center the world's attention on China? Do you think all of the investment will continue well past such and important time period?

I can tell you this - and i don't bank on predictions, but i ca promise you that i will be watching the flow of institutional money in that region starting in March of '08.

Something other than the 2008 Olympics?

The Chinese government sees the games as a chance for China to highlight its economic rise and emergence as a world power

Heh, I knew it'd happen eventually, someone would accuse me of being a "China-lover", and accuse me of hating America. Funny, because it's the farthest thing from the truth. Trust me... wait til you read my write-up analyzing life in China. :cool:

My original post in this thread wasn't any commentary about life in China, it was totally about the US. Yeah, China has problems. MANY more problems than the US. But that doesn't mean they're not a threat.

And Slang, on your come-back post, I 100% agree with you. There's nothing we can do to stop the Chinese from their own push to get ahead, but we CAN change the game to make sure we stay ahead. Good point, well said. :D

ZenGum... EXCELLENT point about complacency. I'm actually getting to that point in life myself. I'm tired of the long days and big demands at work, and I'm contemplating shifting to a lower position to actually get to spend more time with my family, even if it means scaling back on lifestyle.

The interesting side-effect of that though... is if culturally we all say, "well, I guess we've accumulated enough", then we may get left behind in the future. I've never seen this theory anywhere else, but, here goes my brand new concept on why America had such a meteoric rise...

In Europe in the 1800's people felt they pretty much "had it good enough". Democracy was spreading, rampant wars were subsiding, the grip of the church was lessening, illness was less of a factor...

And the result was they became complacent. Life was pretty well balanced, they COULD do a little more work to get more out of life, but what was the point?

And then the US bounced along, sat on top of some pretty fantastical innovations in the 1900s, and launched to the head of the class. You even look at Europe... in the 1900s they had substantial manufacturing capabilities, even beyond what the US had. Yet it was still the grand ol' USofA that became #1, even though they had the added challenge of being so far away from Europe making it tougher to import / export goods. If, at the same time, any European culture would have had the same level of raw materials resources and the same culture of hard-work to get ahead, then maybe that country would be the sole world power today. But it didn't happen (Germany threatened, but failed), so today it's only the US, all because of two things: innovation, and hard-work mentality.

It's an interesting theory to consider... the main new idea in there for me is the point about a culture "accepting their position in life", and not pushing on for more-more-more. And in turn, that becomes the factor that puts them at the biggest disadvantage when suddenly you find yourself in the future, and what once was considered a good salary isn't even enough to buy you a vacation on Venus, or a even get you a decent clone-body to transplant your brain.

Interesting stuff.

There are a few questions that I have for both you and ZG. This question came to me today after talking with some of the neighbors.


Zen and Riddil:

Do people there ( each respective location ).....

* - Seem to want to be friends, if only for the novelty of having a foreign pal and what doors that might open for them both in country and what I may be able to do for them in your country

* - Seem to sincerely want to be friends and offer their attention just as they would to anyone else there.

* - Seem genuinely friendly but don't approach me outside of my professional environment. They don't invite me "out for beers" ( or rice or whatever )

* - Seem wholely uninterested in me as person but are very interested in what I'm doing here.

* - Seem hostile in some way but without any type of personal gaff or confrontation initiating that hostility. They don't like _____'s and I am one of them.


My circumstances here in the Philippines are a bit different than both of yours. I've essentially set up home here and work long and hard in the US for 6 or so months and then come back here. Back and forth I go.

Most of the people that have access to me are family and people in this neihborhood. They are all pinoys ( with 2 exceptions, Chinese nationals ) and everyone is very curious to know why I'm here. This is not the tourist area. White people don't come here. It's not clean and comfortable.

Many people here like to chat with me and I'm more than happy to do this. Many also like to sing with the videokey ( which I personally don't like but often do anyway ).

Some people are very defensive when we first meet because they expect me to challenge them in some way or domineer over them. It's not long that they even out and just relax around me. At that point we can either find things in common that we like and spend time together or not. Just like anyone else on the planet I suppose.

Sure, there are those that ask a lot of very personal money questions, either joking or seriously, and they generally stop coming around because I'm not a rich man, not an important man in the US and am truly here to relax and learn about this place. Once they see that I'm not pounding my chest telling them how rich and important that I am, they assume that I can't or wont make their dreams come true, whatever they may be.

For the most part though, with very few exceptions, the people here are extremely friendly and helpful. There is no pressure here for me though and I'm the world's nicest guy. :)

So I'm curious as to what your experiences have been, ZenGum and Riddil. I'm guessing that they are not at all like mine here in Manila but I'll allow you to tell as much or little as you wish.

cough cough dont forget everyone's favorite expat minor cellarite in taiwan

I like that you guys are out there living my little dream of living in Asia....I like how this is panning out for you all, being successful in another country. Really, that is sincere....
:D


Riddil- You did not address the issues I have with "rolling out the red carpet" for immigrants of Eastern descent. Which is clearly what your post was about. You clearly have issues with the Mexican Nationals not being as skilled as people in the East? Is this what you are saying? I see things differently, as I think the world is too interested in greed and production for production's sake. You would have people flood into this country to take the jobs from Americans because we're "lazy". We are more expensive is the sole issue here. We hold ourselves up to a quality of life and standard for us and our families. This is why the jobs have been taken to other countries. Either because the company is doing something that would be illegal on American soil- or the labor is cheap. (or any combination thereof) From a corporate standpoint, this is why we don't roll out the carpet for Easterner's to come to this country...(not that this doesn't happen at all) They would be the same cost as Americans, which is what Corporate is trying to evade by using foreigners in other countries. You already know this however, which is also what this is about? Do you feel like the people you are working with now are more deserving of American riches than Americans? Do you feel like this country (U.S.) needs to do "whatever it takes to get to the top"? Even if it includes an influx of people of foreign descent to come here and do our jobs for us?

Riddil, I disagree with your account of the demise of Europe.
During the 1800s, they were not complacent and resting on their laurels. They were competing frantically with each other to dominate the continent and the world, innovating and competing as much as they could. In 100 years they seized most of Africa, South and South-East Asia, and kept shoving amongst themselves.
I believe there were two main factors in the demise of Europe. Firstly the colonies caught up the technological and organizational advantage that Europe had held. Secondly, the two world wars exhausted them. In 1914, the USA was worthy but not as powerful as Britain, or even France or Germany. By 1946 the USA was clearly the strongest. I think that pouring their national resources into destructive wars was the crucial factor in the demise of Europe.

Hmmm, What is the US doing right now?

Fair enough. Do tell of your experience there.

ZenGum, point taken. The whole train of thought in that post was a stream of conscious. I do think there is some validity though. It may not be due to any laziness of Europeans, but I do think it was a convergence of many factors that led to such a big disparity for what the US became.... innovation, hard-work mentality, safety from the wars, and abundant source of raw materials.

And Cicero, actually I'm not against the influx of Mexicans into the US at all. I am against the ILLEGAL influx of Mexicans. However, I think we should set up a simple registration system to make it just as easy for just as many Mexicans to come into the country. Get them tax payer numbers, and get them paying taxes. The beef I have with the current system is they come in, get paid under the table, and send all that money home. If you're working in the US, you should be paying taxes in the US.

Anyhow, I digress, my real point with immigration is that it's silly how easy we make it for uneducated illegals, and so difficult for educated professionals. I don't only mean Easterners, either. I say open up the gates and let Europeans, Africans, South Americans, whatever, let 'em come on in. We should lock out the poor Mexicans to match the difficult process for everyone else. We should clean them both up, and make it easy for people to move into the US.

And yes, "whatever it takes to stay at the top", INCLUDING bringing in foreigners to take top jobs. How many stories are there from the end of the 1800's, and beginning of the 1900's about some immigrant coming from Europe and building a massively successful company? The quality work they do makes American companies more competitive, and the companies they create give jobs to more Americans, and the income they earn is injected into the US.

Who cares if they talk with an accent? Their kids won't.

Yep, that is what worries me.
Although at present the US is trickling, not pouring, resources into wars. WWI and II were "total war" - pretty much all of the country's resources went to it. The current situation isn't that intense yet.

Nevertheless, while the US and friends are off chasing car-bombers in the Middle-East, and China and Russia are conserving their strength and making friends.

Acutally, I just put up a (stupidly long) post about my perspective of life in China. Many questions may be answered indirectly there. But that post is more a life-in-general posting, and not so much a personal impression, so I'll try to answer as best I can here....

I actually clipped out your specific questions, because the answers are all so deeply affected by how I answer the first one:

Most Chinese haven't been exposed to any real-life foreigners. The reaction I get is typically stares. Shanghai is better, but move out to the suburbs and it's still awkward. Plus, they also tend to be very distrusting of foreigners in general. Overall most folks are very accepting. But since it's such an isolationist culture they lock out each other, which means they especially lock out foreigners.

By and large, they're not interested in being friends. It seems the way most Chinese friendships are built is through school. People stay in touch with their high school and University chums their whole life, and that's the predominant extent of their social circles. Bars and clubs are still seen as "evil", so most people still spend their nights either in the office or at home. Weekends about all you'll do is go to a park or KTV, but that's typically only with your immediate friends / family. It's a very secluded atmosphere. The exception is the old retired folks... they congregate in masses to dance and play mahjong and ping-pong.

However, there are a few over-motivated new businessmen that will stride across a busy street just to come up and try to strike up a conversation with me. To me it feels like they're fishing for any opportunity to make a network connection so that they find the secret to untold riches.

I'm in a similar situation to you. I actually avoided the "foreigner communities", and I live in a very common area. But NO ONE tries to make friends, or even strike up a conversation. Even when I talk in my broken Chinese with people they won't even try to answer, they'll do their best to point, or nod, but they're too (scared? ashamed? surprised?) to try to answer back directly.

And yeah, many people fully expect Americans to be loud and obnoxious. Which I count as a benefit since it means everyone always has low expectations for me, it's easy to surpass those expectations :D

That makes sense.

Most everyone here has at least seen some foreigners. This country is completely different and has been a colony for much of it's history.

Only the kids stare at me. :D

Thanks for taking the time out to answer my questions.

Of course the main answer is a mix of pretty much everything.
I haven't been here very long and haven't had a great deal of interaction with Japanese people outside of language classes, so my answers are a compound of my own experience, reports from my friends, and a few relevant books.

The first cultural rule here is politeness. It is very unusual (and therefore quite startling) to have someone be deliberately rude. People are normally very wary of saying what they really think ("honne" in Japanese) and usually just say what is polite ("tatemae"). So getting to what people really think/feel about foreigners is difficult.
There is a little bit of staring behaviour. Children and rural dwellers seldom if ever see foreigners, and so - especially the kids - look at you as a novelty. It's not hostile staring though, not a "what are you doing here, foreign devil", just a "wow, don't see too many like that". Japan is still very racially homogeneous; blond, big nosed fellows like me do stand out.
High and junior high school kids stare in a shy, endearing way. Ohhh look! how interesting, a foreigner - I dare you to talk to it ... no you do! no, you! Harro! giggles, run away...
Uni students like to act all sophisticated and international, and some urban trendies try to act like gangstas, greeting me with "yo, man" and stuff. Its hard to stop myself from laughing, especially when they spoil the gangsta image with, for example, neatly trimmed eyebrows.

Adults are usually at least polite. Some shop staff don't want to make the effort dealing with my hopeless Japanese, which seems a bit rude, but quite often strangers will strike up a conversation on trains and such. Maybe they just want to practice their English, or maybe they're just being hospitable. The novelty of a foreign pal is, i think, often a factor. Nevertheless, there can be genuine friendships, if you find the people you click with.

However, the Japanese culture is still very exclusionist. Foreigners are welcome to visit - mostly - but are not welcome to assimilate. In Hokkaido Highway BluesWill Ferguson gives many examples, including a case where the press hailed the election of a Chinese man as the head of a PTA as a great stride. He was "Chinese" ... born in Japan, father born in Japan, GRANDFATHER migrated. He only speaks Japanese. But he's still "Chinese".

There are a tiny, tiny number of ultra-nationalists, who drive black minibuses with rising sun flags and huge (but very low-fi) sound systems about the city, blaring painful old militaristic songs and political drivel. Meh, find me a country that doesn't have some like them.
But there is a much more widespread streak of more polite xenophobia and racism. Ishihara, the mayor of Tokyo, has been re-elected despite repeatedly saying things I find bloody outrageous. Some classics: preparing for the soccer world cup, he said we should build more orphanages because there would be lots of unwanted babies because of the influx of foreigners who would rape all the women. Or that if there was a big earthquake, we'd need to immediately deploy the army to shoot all the Korean Tokyoites, who would naturally begin rioting. (After the last big Tokyo earthquake in the 1930s, the Koreans behaved but were frequently lynched by Japanese mobs who accused them of poisoning the wells.) There are plenty of other examples, not just from him.

So, reviewing your choices, I'd have to be very boring and say "yes a bit" to all of them. Some people are genuinely friendly, some interested in the generic foreigner, some politely hospitable, some awkwardly shy, some politely hostile, and a very few openly hostile.
Maybe my experiences are very unrepresentative: I am only planning a limited stay, haven't learned the language, haven't built much of a social network. Most of the views here are second hand.

The illegals:They do pay taxes, because they have homes. Illegal, but they do pay. They also pay sales taxes at grocery stores etc. etc. Everyone pays. There is no way around any of that. Not that I am taking up for that. I live in an area full of illegal nationals and I don't like what is being done here. I think we do need to stop them from pouring into the United States in droves. This is already a great deal of stress on our allocation of federal and state funding that is supposed to go to naturalized citizens. I agree, get the ones here registered! Good Idea. But this has to stop. We need to limit the influx of immigrants and work with who we have here already. We are Americans and can self-sustain. I believe in the power of the American people to be steadfast, work hard, and pull themselves up by their own boot-straps.

I think your idea about immigration is specious. Like a common school-boy who can tediously string words together and not actually understand what he is saying nor the implications. Charming. (As the teachers clap from the side-lines) How is your immigration idea going to promote self-responsibility and progressive education? You are talking about the inevitability of common Americans becoming a slave race to corporate, immigrant, political leaders that do not have a respect for our way of life, our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, and thereby negating the essence of who we are. We are a people that have made great strides, and many advances since our founding fathers came here not too long ago. We have made countless contributions to the world, the best one I can think of, but receding currently, is freedom, and basic human rights. Your idea of getting to the top by any means makes you, sir, a (edited) bully-boy that blah blah blah...... You have lost all respect for what it means to be a common American laboring away at his blue-collar job to feed his family for a decent, still unlivable,wage. My husband is one of these people. He works 6 days a week and sweats to help get us by. He is skilled in his area. His company is making responsible advances. He is on the cutting-edge of systems that might help other countries to self-sustain as well.
Maybe you are describing Americans that are a projection of yourself.
Greedy for advances, over-production, be on top no matter what, and all of it will become waste, when there are good, hard-working Americans out there that fight for our way of life, and how to maintain what we have now and are concerned about our future.

Yes, foreigners have made many advances. But there are many great contributions made by Americans that you try and negate by spelling that out. I call bait and switch. We aren't going to see eye to eye on this. So what? I have seen personal evolutions that were american-made. And only possible in America.

Anyway, you are becoming a Riddil wrapped around a nightmare, and I see the direction you are heading. I find what you are saying to be (unintentionally as it may be) insulting. Which is why I sound like an asshole. I'm really not an asshole but I think you are trying to take advantage of the current american chaos, like everyone else in the world might like to, to have it run by a foreign, tyrannical elite class. You are talking about a foreign, legalized, occupation of the United States.

So. I guess I will go stick my head in the sand. I am bound to get butt-raped for this. But you know what? I call bull-shit. I Love the verbiage and good luck on your journey. I guess I'll stand in this thread alone and say my peace as stupid, lazy, American, but I am not so easily convinced. (oh and we are stubborn too) :D


I wish my over-qualified, underpaid, genius, fellow-americans would get to run a top job. That's what I wish. I know a lot of really smart hard-working Americans stuck in a meat-grinder. And you would like to turn the handle.

Well, thank you for helping me to the realization of how much I actually do believe in this country myself. It just gets lodged in the back of my brain because of my petty complaints.

I'd just like to hop in here and say that this thread is TERRIBLY interesting...do continue.

*sits on floor indian-style with head on hands, in starry eyed amazement*

I think you're looking for this smiley : :corn:

Cicero, I hope that was cathartic for you. I wasn't really following the immigration sub-thread in this thread, but I might go and read up on it.

Good smiley, but not quite what I was going for...not in the mood for popcorn you see... :D

Yes, I feel better. Thank you.

:)

You are not completely alone Cicero.

There is no way you can compare the opressive government of China to the Democracy of the US. The list of things the government does to opress free speech, movement, the things they did to Tibet, good God to think that in some way the US or any western style democracy is worse than the things China has done to its people is pure and utter bull shit.

Yea, great country that China, polluting the whole place in an effort to get ahead of everyone else economically. Damm the torpedos full steam ahead. They build 3 or 4 coal fired plants per month to our last ONE in 20 years. Have a look:
http://www.cellar.org/showpost.php?p=413008&postcount=1

THE DOWNSIDE OF THE BOOM
China's Poison for the Planet
By Andreas Lorenz and Wieland Wagner

Can the environment withstand China's growing economic might? As one of the planet's worst polluters, Beijing's ecological sins are creating problems on a global scale. Many countries are now feeling the consequences.

The cloud of dirt was hard to make out from the ground, but at an altitude of 10,000 meters (32,808 feet), the scientists could see the gigantic mass of ozone, dust and soot with the naked eye. In a specially outfitted aircraft taking off from Munich airport, they surveyed a brownish mixture stretching from Germany all the way to the Mediterranean Sea.

These kinds of clouds float above Europe for most of the year and they've traveled far to get there. By analyzing the makeup of particles in the cloud, European scientists were able to identify its origin. "There was a whole bunch from China in there," says Andreas Stohl, a 38-year-old from the Norwegian Institute for Air Research.

Some 12,000 kilometers (7,500 miles) to the west, Steven Cliff is slowly winding his way up Mount Tamalpais near San Francisco in his RV. The 36-year-old researcher has installed a complex instrument to measure the air from Asia that reaches the West Coast of the United States over the Pacific Ocean.

Days like this are ideal for taking these measurements. San Francisco is shrouded in cool fog, but up on the top of the mountain there's warm sunshine. Indeed, these are ideal conditions for surveying air currents untainted by local influences. But Cliff is alarmed by his instrument's readings -- soot particles have colored the device's filter "blacker than we've ever seen it," he says.

Back in a lab at the University of California at Davis, Cliff and his colleagues analyze the origins of the air pollution with the help of x-rays. According to their "chemical signature," most have come from coal-fired Chinese power plants, Chinese smelters and chemical factories, as well as from the tailpipes of countless Chinese diesel-powered cars and trucks.

More:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...461828,00.html

On the bright side: take a look at the mobile Chinese death squad's, organ harversting, new van. Apparently they show up, conduct a trial, then bring people inside to kill by way of lethal injection. (Phasing out those inhumane firing squads)

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...cleId=115788#3

:)

Saves on trial fees, extradition fees, inmate housing fees, and supports healthier organs to sell. Go mobile!!

Using this thread to bash China doesn't answer any of the points a US national who intends to return to the US raises.

I'd probably be the same if a Brit abroad criticised my country, but in the still, silent, thinking part of me I would consider the criticisms carefully. They come from someone who has lived in both cultures - they have at least some validity.

See post 31.

btw-Thanks Classic!
;)

Ummmmm... fuck that. You cannot hold China's society and the Chinese government up to a standard which compares itself to the shortcomings of the US. That is a total straw man argument. I did not compare the shortcomings of the US to the advancements of China, the original poster did. I do take it with some keen observation but don't for one minute hold up the failures of US society as an example of how China can do it better. I can produce REEMS of links an original source info that shows how poorly China performs on the world stage. The statistics are staggering. Pollution is but one very easy example. Choose your subject, Tibet? Health Care? The environment? Oppression of free speech? Oppression of internet traffic? God the list is huge. For every example of horrific treament of the US by any peoples, to include it's own, I can show you 20 times the scale of that which the Chinese governement has produced. I respect totally the views of an expat living abroad, just don't use it to bash us, the facts may turn around and bite you.

Eh hem - This thread has nothing to do with China. There is another for that. This was about an external perspective of the U.S. or so I thought.

From, and in contrast and comparison to, China.

:D

Now there are two threads for that. Thank god. Couldn't do that in just one.

I think some people in this thread are missing the point completely. This is my perspective as someone totally not biased in any way about the particular subject at hand.

From what I can see, Riddil was talking about the attitude of 'some' Americans and the opportunities that 'some' Americans choose to disregard. From what I can see, Riddil was trying to show that Americans have all the chances in the world and yet don't take them, while people living in repressed cultures are grasping at every straw to make something of themselves. I also see that Riddil is not suggesting the 'all' Americans are like this, nor are 'all' Chinese, just that there are some people who like to cry 'woe is me' when they perhaps should be taking advantage of the fact that they live in a so called, free country.

I don't see any insult there to anyone at all. Only someone seeing that the world he knew is not quite as perfect as he once thought it was.

Hey, I respect the view that we could do things better, but do not for one minute try to compare and contrast our societies, that is total bull shit and China will lose on every front. I can show you some hard ass kicking Americans who will put most of the rest of the "western" world to shame. And for every one lazy American I could show your 10,000 Chinese surfs sitting on their asses making lead filled toys to send to the US, because the Brits are certainly not taking them! :D

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=12442199

I really do not think he was comparing the two at all and even said he was not, at least once in his initial post. He also wrote that he would give his opinion on China in a seperate thread. I thought he very specifically tried NOT to compare one against the other, rather just to give us a perspective of America from "An American not in America." But thats just my take on it.

There are hardworking and lazy people everywhere. I don't think Americans necessarily have a caviat on that.

It's nice that you love your country so much Merc, but surely you're not blind to the fact that there are some things (in fact many things) that America is not best at.

As for the 10000 Chinese surfs sitting on their asses making lead filled toys, well all I can say to that is, they're earning a living. Better than sitting on their asses collecting welfare.

Thanks for taking the time to comment. It's much differerent there than in the Phils and China. Very interesting.

Politeness. Wow, I'd forgotten that word since it's not used here. :D

No doubt, compared to the 100,000 Chinese surfs sitting on their asses collecting absolutely nothing, sure.

Surfs? Caviat?

Well!

:corn:

Do you really believe people in China sit around doing nothing? Are you not aware that the Chinese people are known to be one of, if not the most industrious group of people in the world? Have you never heard anything of the Chinese work ethic?

I will not respond to Classic in this thread.

Classic- Just because you write in a disclaimer straight-away does not mean that you are not going to do something! Even if you end a post with another disclaimer it does not mean that it did not happen.

The quotes above are examples of comparisons of US and China in the first post.

I did not respond to classic in this thread.

See how that works on a very basic level?
:D

Point made. I just interpreted it differently. To simply state that "Americans are short-sighted or lazy or whatever" without any relevance is meaningless. I certainly did not read into it that he preferred China to the US in any way. Again - I'll just step away and let him speak for himself and his posts.

I think I see what your saying.

It is not a "Chinese" work ethic, it is an oriental work ethic. There is much poverty in China, much more than in any other country by shear numbers alone, I don't know about the percent. Rural China is very poor. There is not enough work to go around, although I would bet that is a regional thing. I have not been there since the late 80's...

http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=16013

I was struck by the irony of this.

Here is a paste from Riddil's post about China:
Now for "Chinese" read "Americans", and consider this thread. ;)

FWIW, I believe (and I interpret Riddil as saying) that the problems in the US are much less bad than those in China. I would certainly like to visit the US, and possibly even live there. I might barely visit China, but from what I've heard, I certainly do not want to live there.

What I am saying is, there are comparsions being made there. What is preferred is another topic. I only point this out because you and others are trying to say that China is not the topic and no comparisons are being made, but they are. Riiight there!!! Many times in the first post, and I'm not sure how many other various posts...Maybe he doesn't mean to compare, which seems likely, but he is! Oh jeez.....
:D
BTW- I think you're a good noob so far.

:D

I think I see what your saying. Point made. Again - I'll just step away and let him speak for himself and his posts.

thanks and how's the weather today?:cool:

So why don't you race him to 2,000 posts then?
;)