6/6/2002: PETA advertisement
 

http://cellar.org/2002/petaadvert.jpg

UK readers will be familiar with this already, I'm guessing. It's a frame from a PETA advertisement that was set to run in cinemas, but was pulled when people felt it was... inappropriate.

The ad features the woman being clubbed to death for her fur coat. Bright folk will see the analogy they're trying to make...

Morons...

... PETA or the censors? :confused:

You, nic. :)

PETA...they just irritate the fuck out of me. It shouldn't have been censored, although I can see why. It could "inspire" people to start beating up on fur-wearers. Perhaps they could have put a disclaimer at the bottom.

If people want to wear fur, that's their right. If I owned one, and someone threw paint on me, it would take all the willpower I have to keep from beating the living fuck out of the vandal.

All depends where the fur comes from as far as i'm concerned.

Oh, my misunderstanding. I thought the image was of a dead PETA vandal who had sprayed paint on that pimp's fur coat. ;)

Please extrapolate. So, if I legally went out and killed a bear, and decided to make a coat out of it, would you throw paint on me?

One day I AM going to own a fur coat in an attempt to be cool. :)

I remember cracking up to an early Bobcat Goldwaith bit:

"Oh no, I dont eat beef. But I'd kill a cow in second for a cool coat."

I wonder if our righteous dude is striding away in his fine Italian leather shoes...just out of frame.

Uh...wouldn't it work better to own a fur coat in an attempt to be *warm*?

*groan* :)

Rather like the f*ckwits who think it's funny to stage a driveby shooting with a paintball gun. Is the victim supposed to make a split second asessment as to whether they've just been assaulted with a firearm, or if the stuff they've been doused with is toxic, caustic or contagious?

I do notice that this sort of "good goof" or "political statement" happens mostly in jurisdictions like New York and California where law-abiding folks have been disarmed. One guy who tried the paintball stunt in Utah found out the hard way that some folks there are packing heat. :-)

One in america would shooting someone with a painball gun give you the the justification to blow their head off *sighs*

Depends on the bear, if it was an endangered species, yes, i'd probably ignite it and you along with it but something like foxfur coats etc, why not? Same applies for croc-skin handbags etc. All depends where the fur is coming from, ehre we have croc farms purely for this stuff.

I was watching some show on TLC earlier this week. It showed some juveniles driving around town on a 3-day rampage, destroying car windows and mail boxes. But what shocked me was that these kids (during said spree) were shooting at people with paintball guns and hitting people with bats. And they videotaped all of it. Now THAT'S stupid. IIRC, they started shooting at this guy on a bike...not only did he get hit by paintballs (which hurts from what I hear) but he went face first into the side mirror of a van. Ouch.

lol now that is amazingly dumb. There are two types of painball, liquid capsules which are pretty harmless and the hard-ball powderpaint ones which can be muchos nasty.

If one is armed with a gun, and they're being hit by something that appears to be a gun, you don't think that they would try to defend themselves by shooting? I'm not a fan of guns, but even I could see a self-defense rationale in that.

Hence why I said "legally." And PETA would hate the croc farms. :)

Anybody who shoots me with *any* kind of gun does so at their own peril. If they're expecting me to introspect on exactly what kind of gun it is and what it's loaded with while they shoot the next couple of rounds, they're making a big mistake. Paintballs can be loaded with very dangerous crap, I'd definately recommend you *not* drive by and shoot me with one.

Furthermore, very few people can tell in the space of a few seconds after a strike whether they've been hit with a .22, a BB, an airgun dart, a paintball, or a bigger bullet. People sometimes get shot with much bigger rounds in combat and don't even notice until it's pointed out to them.

So that pinhead in Utah gets *zero* sympathy from me.

Syc - what is 'legal' and waht is even vaguely ethical are often completely different, in many countires its still 'legal' to hunt endangered species.

Its not a frigging gun, it doesn't sound like a gun, most don't even look very gunlike. I donno i guess i'm sick of hearing stupid stories of people being shot for the most inane things, i mean christ you can't even *do* a driveby shooting without a reasonably high power full atomatic weapon nd the jsutification for owning an uzi is questionable in itself so therefore if people didn't have the weapons to commit drive-by shootings you wouldn't need to carry a .50 magnum...but lets just agree to disagree on this I just develpoed a pathological dislie of gun advocated after the NRA did that blantanly false series of crap about australians cowering in their homes after strengthening of gun laws....grrr

This idea seems inherently flawed.

Although I'm sure it happens here, it's a federal offense to do so.

If someone is driving towards you, you can't really tell.

You don't think they do drive-bys with 9mm pistols or semis?

Let us make no mistake that I am inherently cool; however, the fur coat and fedora would make me pimp supreme. :)

If someone is driving towards you, past you, aobve you or undernearth you you'd have to be close to deaf not to be able to tell teh diff between a paintball gun and submachinegun, or even a pistol. As for doing a driveby with a 9mm, you'd have to be pretty damn accurate to say the least to be able to hit a moving target while moving pretty dman fast with a single round. I don't really knwo waht drivebys are usually done with, i haven't ehard of one in Australia ever i think, and certainly not in lembourne, and that kinda thing would make the news here, nearly all gun killings do, they are rare(nuff said?). On the other hand i don't see why a you need a 9mm either. Can be drop the gun debate all? its just gonna be long, boring and ugly, this isn't slashdot =)

As for legality, i'm sure the majority of the killing does not happen in the US. Is it a crime to own one of an endangered animal or only to make?

I'm not trying to have a gun debate here jag. I'm trying to show you that there is certainly a possibility that a paintball gun can be mistaken for a real gun. You're mixing motion (riding in a car) along with split-second thinking, thereby creating a dangerous situation.

As far as the drive-by, you set yourself up for that trap. ;)

I'm not sure of the exact law. I believe that you must have a permit to keep an endangered species (i.e. a zoo), but I'm not sure how it applies to individuals.

Your fashion sense has actually incited fear in me. :)

I doubt it extends to keeping it in the wardrobe ;)

Yea it probably could be - but i don't think that validates shooting the guy. I mean the theory goes if we all have guns we're not going to shoot at each other becase we'll get shot back, i've seem the same theoy applied ot nukes and nations, *reads the paper* hm....;) (for refrence i think this currant pakistan/india possible conflict is the biggest media beatup i've seen in ages)

I've always been fond of the bumper sticker that goes along the lines, "People are more violently opposed to fur than leather, because it's safer to harass rich women than biker gangs."

This is the same retarded argument that high schoolers make. Yeah, let's outlaw guns. That will eliminate the problem.

<b>NEWS FLASH</b> - CRIMINALS DON'T CARE WHAT THE GODDAMN LAW SAYS! THAT'S WHY THEY'RE CRIMINALS!

If they want to shoot someone, they will find a gun and do it. They will get them imported from Mexico or some other goddamn place where guns are available. Jesus H. Christ, when will this inane argument die? "Uh, if we make guns illegal, the world will be a safer place" - yeah, 'cause all the crooks and murderers will go "well, darnit, now it's illegal to have guns, so I guess I'll have to turn mine in." Give me a mother fucking break. For all the skepticism you show of everything else, I can't believe you've bought that faulty logic. Yeah, and if we outlaw, say, DeCSS, it'll stop being readily available, huh? And if we make software copying illegal, it'll just stop... right? Yeah. Uh huh. You say that because it allegedly supports your argument. Nevermind that it makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

Not true. I once knew a criminal who had never broken a law in his life.

Oh, that's mean. When do schools let out in AU? He may still be *in* high school; June's not over yet.. :-)

Eh, I had 9th graders making this argument to me when I was 14. I told them the same thing then, and they still insisted on it when they were 17.

Quit being so goddamn gullible and buying the shit that your parents feed to you. Look at it realistically, for Christ's sake. Just because guns are illegal doesn't mean that criminals won't get them - not by a long shot.

juju - then I guess he's not actually a criminal, is he?

Beyond that, a paintball gun can *be* a deadly weapon, loaded with the right ammo. Nobody has the right to assult someone with one and then whine "But it's not a deadly weapon"; the balls could be loaded with prussic acid, or anthrax.

By our laws, I'm also weapons-free to shoot someone who's trying to rape me; I don't have to prove he's got AIDS first. Further, a sound-suppressed small-bore handgun sounds *very* much like a paintball gun. As for hitting a moving target with a 9mm, may I point out that the scenarro has *him* shooting at *me* with a paintball gun. Wanna guess which has more accurate range?

Jag, your feelings about guns *are*, as you say, pathological; it's called hoplophobia.

paintball fun
 

I think that only a complete idiot would take a persons' life over being shot with a paintball gun.

You can't just kill someone because you're having an adrenaline rush, are angry, think the guy was an asshole, want to "get even", want to save face, or believe you will get away with it because you can simply say "I though it was a real gun".

The American mentality is such that some would not only kill the pranskter but everyone else in the car in their instant rage. And why not? It's going to be easy to beat in court, and a perfect chance to use your gun on some unarmed kids.

It's crazy.

Re: paintball fun
 

If you attack some random person with *any* gun from a moving car, expecting them to distinguish your "just for fun" attack from a real one in the space of only a few seconds, you're an idiot and fully deserve whatever happens to you.

Would you walk into a bank, produce a plastic handgun and say "This is a stick up!" and then complain that you shouldn't be arrested because you were "only kidding, look, this is a toy gun, it's not real"?

Assaulting people is *dangerous*. It *should* be dangerous. If you don't understand why this is, I suggest you avoid toy guns, paintball guns and replica guns until you you do.

duh
 

I'm not saying pointing fake weapons at people is a good idea, it isn't. You'll probably get shot, especially if you do it in America, land of the well armed and trigger happy.

Of course it's our right to be well armed and trigger happy, and to walk down the street, hand in pocket on trusty Glock 9mm, round in the pipe, safety off, just waiting for the chance to double tap some kid with a super soaker who saw too many Clint Eastwood movies. I wonder what his mom would say afterwards.

It's our right, after all. Hell, that squirt gun coulda been a real gun, shoot it LOOKED real. Best tried by 12 than carried by 6! Hey buddy, in today's America I'm not taking any chances.

Whatever.

Well as someone who has recieved many a bruise from paintballs I can tell you that even through protective clothing the liquid capsule variety can hurt. And I rarely bruise from normal life events.

Jaguar, you and I probably have relatively rare expereince to draw on. I know what a 9mm (along with other assorted handguns) sound like when fired. I know what several variety of paintball gun sound like. But even though I know what a paintball gun sounds like when fired at me I don't know what an actual gun fired in my general direction sounds like. And I'd bet the vast majority of people with a CCW permit have never participated in paintball sports.

That having been said I don't think I'd bet my life that the loser who just hit me with a projectile, while I was minding my own business walking down the street, is only using a paintball gun. I'd err on the side of caution and blow his ass away. That kind of anti social behaviour should be actively discourged.

This brings to mind one of my favorite Jack Handey Deep Thoughts, which I know Tony is a fan of. I will recite it here, from memory.

"I think a good gift for the President would be a chocolate revolver. And since he's so busy, you'd probably have to run up to him real quick and hand it to him."

It's funny because both you and I know that anyone doing that would be shot. The Secret Service isn't going to take any chances to distinguish between a chocolate revolver and a real gun.

It's not at all about getting a chance to use your piece. It's being frightened for your life and neutralizing the threat.

I have to make a comment here. I have played paintball. Each marker sounds different. The marker I owned was fully automatic and loud as fuck. It could easily be mistaken as fully automatic gun. It was acctually designed as a training weapon. I would however not recomend it as it jammed more often than my AK.

Now if I beat down a PETA actress with an aluminum baseball bat, am I hitting her with a sports accessory or a weapon? Then isn't shooting "Jag the packin'ist pimp" with a paintball marker, assault with a deadly weapon? Don't fool yourself, a hot shot to the eyes at 300+ fps can kill.

I don't know what I would do If I was in Jag's place but I believe it is his right to defend his person, with deadly force if required.

So to turn that around, if a furry animal can't defend itself against anal electrocution or poison gases, tough shit. To put things in perspective I am a vegetarian that wears leather shoes and hates cows.

Yes, that's the new PCness..."It's not a gun, it's a marker."
What silliness...:-)

Re: duh
 

Glocks don't have safeties....if you're going to wax sarcastic, do your homework.

I carry a double-action only (hammer doesn't cock, eight pound trigger pull) Kel-Tec P-11, and don't keep a round chambered("up the pipe" is the correct idiom, by the way) because it's even safer that way. I'm willing to rack the slide to make the weapon ready if I need to, and I can do it one-handed if necessary.

I don't think that constitutes being "trigger-happy". The amount of legal grief that awaits a licenced gun-carrier who *displays* (much less points or fires) her weapon without justification is unimaginable.

I think brandishes is the correct idiom. ;)

This kind of thing has happened before. Try doing a google search for 'police mistook toy gun'. I could produce a laundry list of incidents, but I won't.

Nope.
-----------------------------
Brandish Bran"dish, v. t. imp. & p. p. Brandished; p. pr. &
vb. n. Brandishing. OE. braundisen, F. brandir, fr. brand
a sword, fr. OHG. brant brand. See Brand, n.
1. To move or wave, as a weapon; to raise and move in various
directions; to shake or flourish.
-----------------------------
You can display a handgun without brandishing it....you can display it while it's still holstered.

and you can get unimaginable legal grief for that? i can't imagine.

Gee, that sure sounds so silly compared to "let’s give everyone a gun so when they get drunk they can shoot up the bar, or when someone bulls out a book they can overreact and empty 3 clips into them. Yes we have very restricted guns laws here and HOLY SHIT, very few crimes involving firearms. If people need to pack a fucking 9mm under their jacket to feel safe something else is very, very wrong. You see the amazing thing here is I can walk anywhere I want in the city without think "shit, I could do with an Uzi and few frag grenades round here...stunning thought. When I’m with people driving past people I know I can lean out the window and yell at them without worrying about some paranoid nut pulling out a glock and blowing my head off, I kinda like that.

Is it me or is that a self-defeating statement.

Look I agree the guy was bloody stupid but the trigger-happy attitude is what pisses me off. I mean if someone did that here you would not that "he has an M-16 and is spraying the street because you CANNOT GET THEM. I have never heard of a crime in Australia since these guns laws involving an automatic rifle.

Hmmm...maybe the caps were a bit too much...let me see if I can assist here.

Jag, if criminals want a gun, they will get a gun. Period. You could pass 50-11 laws to restrict their ownership and use. And would they work? I doubt it. If they banned handguns in the city of Philadelphia, I could probably still go over to W. Erie Ave. and buy one for $50-500.

An honest law-abiding citizen is very rarely going to act a fool with their gun. Sure, you have the rare instances. But for every Columbine, there are millions of people who store, carry, and use their gun properly. Why would an honest citizen WANT to ruin their chances of owning a gun by being stoopid?

"It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious."--Unknown

Hey! This was just on again! :)

A few additions to my original post:

The guy on the bike I mentioned ran into a truck mirror after being hit with a bat. He had already slowed down before being hit.

However, the kids DID hit another guy on a bike, with a paintball gun (that looked incredibly real). He wound up falling off his bike into a signpole (one of those poles that holds a large grocery store sign).

The show is called City Surveillance, and this particular episode will be on again Sunday afternoon at 5pm ET on the Learning Channel. The incident I mention is in the last 10 minutes of the show.

Jayson Williams is the poster boy. Prosecutors say Williams, a former star with the New Jersey Nets, was recklessly handling his 12-gauge shotgun when it went off and that he, Gordnick and another friend, Kent Culuko, tried to make the shooting look like a suicide.

And if they banned in australia, you're going to import from indonesia? Yes, true, but its not a matter of making it impossible, just more difficult. Nothing is impossible, only harder. When there is a handgun-related crime here it goes to federal cops instantly and its a bit liek kicking a wasps nest, they go apeshit, as a result, they are very uncommon.

Jag - I think we all agree that it's more difficult to get a gun if they're banned. The problem is that the select few criminals who do get them will use them for intimidation and crime - not necessarily killing, but to, say, force a woman to submit to a rape, or to hand over the keys to the car, etc.

Let's just all agree that, because Maggie carries, she's not getting raped and her vehicle isn't getting carjacked.

Guns are pretty fucking terrible - no doubt about it. Any instrument whose purpose is to take life is not a good thing. The problem is that by denying firearms for protection purposes, one collectively lowers the safety level of a society.

You can probably walk around and not worry about getting shot, and that's certainly a valuable freedom to have. But... suppose you and your girly are walking around and some fuckholes come up and take her and your wallet and just like that, she's a rape victim and you're a few hundred dollars poorer. Maybe that kind of stuff doesn't happen in Australia, and if that's the case, that's great. But it does happen here - Baltimore, Washington, Dallas... Christ, that's why Texas has so many goddamn executions.

Taking away the guns is attacking the <b>symptom</b>, not the problem. Truth be told, we need to spend more money on education and getting people out of the slums - not giving them a hand out, but a hand up. An educated young man with a lot to lose is less likely to murder someone on the streets than a 17 year old crack addict who can't read.

All these politicians talk a real good talk - "let's ban guns" and "guns kill people" and "there's no reason to own a gun" - yet their bodyguards carry. Rosie O'Donnel, organizer of the million mom march, outspoken on gun control... and her body guard is registered to carry a firearm. Why? Why is she more important than me? Bill Clinton and his cronies argue for gun control... what, are the Secret Service carrying butter knives to protect POTUS?

Imagine how different the world might be if the passengers on 175, 77, 11 and 93 had guns. Hijackers wouldn't have stood a chance.

Imagine how less likely someone would be to break into a house or mug a person on the street if the population was 99% armed and <b>they knew that</b>.

We can't un-do the gun, and it's a damn shame. So we have to live with it. Unfortunately, the only way one can protect oneself against a gun is by having a gun. I wish there were some other way, but there just isn't.

Well that is my point dham - if you need to be packing a 9mm to feel safe something else is seriously fucking screwed. To be honest if i know i'm going somehwere dodgy late at night i've been known to carry a 6 inch flick blade but its rare and i've never been in a situation where i've been forced to use it. ANY crime here involving guns detonates the apeshit alert, whether someone is shot or not, if there is one thing the cops don't like is crims with guns, its sht shooting of thsoe who carry them is not uncommon. I can see what you're saying, i'm just switching words around.

guns
 

The point I'm trying to make here is that there is more to gun ownership than being able to hit a target. What is needed is *discipline*, and a whole lot of it. As a gun owner you will be held to a higher standard than someone else, because you will be responsible for making snap life-or-death decisions during times of stress.

One of those decisions may be to determine if you have been assaulted with a weapon or a toy. If you cannot tell a paintball gun from a real gun, may I suggest some additional firearms safety classes and maybe some time on a paintball range getting shot with paintballs. That way when some complete idiot shoots you with a toy gun in a spasm of stupidity, your first instinct isn't a panicked "Oh my god, I've been shot!" but rather a much calmer "That was a paintball", and let your actions follow from there. It is perhaps unrealistic to suggest to an American to make this distinction, since it takes a whole lot less mental effort to simply say "I thought it was a real gun, so I killed the him to be on the safe side".

Life, or death.

You might also ask yourself how you're going to feel afterwards if you a)killed the paintball idiot to be on the safe side or b)managed to keep your gun in your pocket through the whole incident without anyone even knowing you had one.

I know my argument isn't going to work, that if someone shoots you with a paintball gun from a moving car, making it look every bit like a drive-by shooting, that you will probably kill the shooter. I'm just making a case to avoid tragedy, since kids do some really dumb things in their adolescent years. It is perhaps unrealistic to hope that someone more mature might be able, in a split second, to do enough thinking for two people at once, and save the day.

Re: guns
 

Of course.

But there are limits. Look, everybody who gets behind the wheel of a car is required to "make snap life-or-death decisions in times of stress". I do the same when I climb in the cockpit of an airplane.

But *here* we have people who piled into a car, who weren't under stress at all, and had all *kinds* of time to decide *not* to do something stupid and dangerous to other people.

Of course, if they figure out it might be dangerous to *them*, they're a bit more disinclined to do it. That's why this crap happens in states like California and New Jersey, where the citizens have been disarmed.

The pinhead in Utah (where the right of self-defense is still preserved somewhat) thought he was safe; he said he shot at a victim who looked too young to be armed. As it turned out, he was wrong, and somehow he's having trouble interesting the police in finding his victims.

Isn't *that* a shame? Not.

In the video mentioned earlier (have you seen it?) , the vicitims (especially the ones riding bicycles) could very well have been killed in the resulting accidents. And shooting someone wearing no vision protection with a paintball can blind them; that's why paintballers wear vision protection.

The legal standard here for justified use of deadly force in self-defence is "the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat" I'd consider being blinded a "serious bodily injury". I bet dham agrees. He lost vision in one eye when someone shot him with a "toy gun".

Nonsense. It's not my job in life to anticipate *every* idiot thing someone might do, and train to protect them from the consequences of their actions.

If there's any lack of training or responsibility here, it's on the part of the shooter. Maybe paintball guns should have a warning label: "Caution: people you shoot at may shoot back". I doubt it would have helped though.

Someone who assaults me, or anybody else, is by their actions just plain assuming the risk that their victim is not armed, or that they might not figure out that the paintgun is (probably) nonlethal, or that the victim might reasonable belive that they were in danger of serious bodily injury. There's just no fricken excuse for shooting at some random person in the street. Not even adolescence.
A paintball gun is not a toy.
*Hoping* for such a thing is not unreasonable. Hope doesn't have anything to do with "being realistic"; you can hope for all sorts of improbable things.

But *expecting* it, and basing your behavior on those expectations, is not. We're all responsible for doing *our own* thinking. Somebody who's going to go through life relying on other people to do his thinking for him is both deluded and dangerous.

"Spasms of stupidity" frequently *are* lethal in the real world. What *I* hope for is that most "spasms of stupidity" are lethal mainly to the person *being* stupid, rather than to the innocent people around them.

That happens too often.

Another thread hijacking by People Explaining Toy Arms ;)

http://www.toyadz.com/toyadz/toyguns/johnnyseven1.jpg

Just for the record, America isn't quite the gun-happy country that everyone seems to think it is. In my admittedly short 17 years on this earth, spent almost entirely in the Washington DC area, I have seen exactly one person openly carrying. Of course, it's possible that every other stranger I cross on the street has a piece in each pocket, but that is illegal. 'Course, maybe it's different in Texas.

Isn't Washington D.C. the murder capital of the world?

Could be; I'm not certain. It's worth mentioning that when I say "washington DC area" I mostly mean "washington DC suburbs," but I do go into the city fairly often. All I mean to say is that, contrary to how it's often portrayed, this country isn't some kind of modern Everquest zone where everyone walks around with a weapon drawn in case somebody looks at them funny.

It's the handgun control capital too....only cops can own handguns in D.C.. if you carry open, you won't do it for long.

Good point.

MD and VA both have CCW laws. I don't believe DC does...of course, DC banned handguns in 1977.

FBI statistics on murder rates. Washington D.C. ranks 41 in 2000.

Contrary to what the gun lobby would have you believe, there is abundant evidence that enforcing gun control laws reduces the gun homicide rate.

Why did the words 'nuff said immidietly pop into my head then???? Ill stick by waht i said and leave it at that - if you need a firearms to feel safe in your own town something is seriously fucked up.