The tenth digit
 

How many of you are comfortable with our current counting system? You know, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, etc.

This is something that's been drilled into us for so long that it seems normal, natural, not to be questioned. And what's wrong with that?

Here's an example. Get a sharpie, or other permanent marker. Starting with the pinkie of the left hand, number each of your fingers, including the thumbs. Left pinkie - 1. Left ring finger - 2. And so on. Left thumb - 5, right thumb - 6...

What happens when you get to your right pinkie? Right pinkie is 10 - that takes two digits! It's just not right.

There are other problems with the number 10, and its multiples. For example, most people think that 20 is the bottom of the twenty series. It's not - it's the top of the teens. And 30 is the top of the twenties. It's crazy. But what can we do?

I would suggest that we adopt a single digit representing 10. What will we call it? How about ten? What should it look like? Maybe this: þ. It's like a 1 and 0 combined into one digit.

With the new digit þ we can almost completely eliminate use of the dreaded zero (but not completely).

Counting in new digit is almost the same as counting in old digit:
1,2,...,9,þ, 11, 12, ... ,19,1þ (tenteen), 21, ..., 29, 2þ (twenty-ten), 31

Counting in old digit, we have 9 one-digit numbers, 90 2-digit numbers, 900 3-digit numbers, etc.

Counting in new digit, we will have 10 1-digit numbers, 100 2-digit numbers (from 11 to þþ), and so on.

Doesn't that just feel right?

Rather than present derivation of decimals and negative numbers, I'll leave those as exercises for the reader.

I think of the first ten digits as 0 through 9, with 9 being the 10th single-digit number.

But this does remind me of something that bothers me: Sunday is the END of the week. NOT the beginning. Monday morning, when you clock in at work, is the beginning of the week for most people. Sunday is the last day in the weekend, which is the very last part of the week. Monday begins the next week. . . . It's stupid to have calendars arranged with Sunday as the beginning of the week.

Speak for yourself. I can calculate in any base you care to name. Our current system for representing numbers* with numerals* according to place values is flexible enough to accommodate this. Are the numerals customarily used to represent individual digits arbitrary? Of course. Duh.

What comes after 9þ?

No, I want to see you do decimals.

*Yes, there's a difference between numbers and numerals.

But you wouldn't count something beginning with zero, would you? You always start with one.

No. We have ten clumps of neurons that represent the ten digits. They study stroke and brain injury patients to see what they "lose" when certain parts of the brain are damaged. The ten digits reside just above and slightly behind your ear.

Yes, I would. My workstations, servers, the drives in my tape libraries, etc. all begin their respective naming conventions with device zero.

Starting out with nothing makes you stronger.

Logically, after 9þ (ninety-ten) comes þ1 (tenty-one).

Decimals are a lot of fun, and the representation changes depending on degree of accuracy indicated (i.e. number of significant figures).

1.5 is still 1.5, but 1.50 becomes 1.4þ and 1.500 becomes 1.49þ

In this way, we know that we really mean three or four significant figures, and are not just writing down what the calculator or spreadsheet gives us (I see this error all the time). Of course, there's still plenty of room for human error.

I think that's a brilliant and creative statement in response to this subject.

So your first child is really child number zero?

:::head explodes:::

No, my zeroeth child is child number zero. And a model tyke he/she is, never any discipline trouble after all, and so easy to please.

But my zeroeth wife, she was hard to get along with.

Some crazy people say first floor when they mean one up from ground level, so I guess that would make sense to them.

Unless you don't have any.

What comes after þþ?
I'm speechless. Help me out here, what's 0.1? 0.01?

Why does the concept of zero bother you so much?

After þþ comes 111.

0.01 is still 0.01, and so on. We still need zero.

What, then, is 1.01? (think of 101/100 to get the correct answer)

You don't start counting at zero because zero represents nothing. You start from nothing, and the first thing you count is 1, then if you have another thing, you have 2 etc. Zero is more than just a number. It's a state of mind. ;)

Start from nothing to move on to something.

Very zen.

HLJ, it looks like all you're really doing is trying to count in base 11. Just replace þ with A.

I'm not changing bases, just representation of digits. If I was using base 11, than 11 would be 12 and we'd still have a 10. Wouldn't we?

nerds!

...UH.....

you bastard! I lost my 10th digit on 9/11 at the WTC

http://images.jupiterimages.com/comm...2/23122247.jpg

:cry:

honestly HLJ I think you need a hobby

Bullshit. You've gone to positively pathological lengths to get rid of zero on the left side of the decimal. Let's see some consistency.

You just said .01 is .01, so 1 plus .01 is 1.01. (Unless you're going to define the addition operation differently than usual.)

First you try to get rid of Mondays, now you're booting the zero. What next, no oxygen? ;)

Well, the symbol is O, which look suspiciously like 0 . . . .

:eek: Good point.

:unsure:

1.01 is 101/100. 101 becomes þ1, so 1.01 becomes 0.þ1

2.01 becomes 1.þ1, just as 201 becomes 1þ1

I'm not trying to get rid of zeros, they just drop out. I love zeros. But we could get rid of leading zeros by using exponential notation, if you like.



Maybe implementing new decimal will be my hobby. This and the prime number thing. And getting rid of Mondays. And trying to make sense of tw.

Are any of these things possible? Probably not.

So what is .101 then? :confused:

.101 = 0.0þ1

or þ.1e-2

You spend our tax money, doncha.

Yes, I put it in the tip mug.

Unfortunately, PayPal doesn't recognize special characters, so UT will never see his $þ.

:pEasy solution. Don't write numbers on your fingers with a sharpie. Hey, wait! Why do they call it a sharpie? You can't cut yourself with it.

I've met a lot of "sharpies", that couldn't cut it.

If you go to your User CP and select "Edit Options" / "Date and Time Options" you can set the start of the week to any day you like.

I have mine set for Wednesday.

I don't why I'm encouraging the continuing existence of this thread :headshake but in at least some European countries the calendar does start with Monday.

Depends on the calendar over here. Mine starts on a monday, but there are some that start sunday.

My work week starts on saturday...

But SteveDallas, this is probably the most original and thought-provoking thread in the entire Nothingland forum.

Um.

The calendars I actually use (and, I bet, the calendars you actually use) have an option to set the first day of the week.

You're ranting about an obsolete technology (paper calendars).

Your face is an obsolete technology.

Give him a break. The Amish don't have all those new-fangled devices like we have.

Plus, Flint is crazy.

Crazy never seems to go out of style.

Your dick is a null pointer.

that sounds a little cocky

The 11th digit.

We should ask Alice. Digit Alice. She would know.

Sweet Jeebus, I can't believe this thread got dredged up from its well-deserved resting place.

true....

but it would be nice if it got out of the house from time to time though.

Lack of the tenth digit has held back implementation of the metric system in the US for far too long.

Why stop with numbers?

For those who want to learn about numbers and their history, I recommend this book: "The Universal History of Numbers" by Georges Ifrah

It makes a very interesting reading.

And in the way of humor:

Q: How do you call a redneck that is able to count up to twenty?









A: Barefoot

Spoken like a true politician!

Brilliant!

Note how succinct his claim is. Note the rational tone of voice. Note the appeal to patriotism with his understated implication that the US is suffering. He missed slightly in this part by suggesting it was the metric system that was held back, not the US being held back. Plus the metric system is kind of "foreign" and serves better as a natural enemy than as an asset. Note the implication of urgency with the phrase "far too long".

Aren't you moved? Somewhat alarmed? Wouldn't you nod your head in agreement with the rest of the crowd of supporters? You would and you might not even notice it.

Also please note the complete absence of reason. Factual truth is INconspicuously absent from this statement. But you might vote for it anyhow because "that right! that sounds right to me!". This happens all the time.

I'd venture the tenth digit, "is kind of 'foreign' and serves better as a natural enemy than as an asset".

Sure!

That's fine, that's great. I (HLJ) just want(s) you nodding along, and for that momentum to be carried over into the voting booth.