From a Chaplain who had served in Iraq
 

Even though this is old, I thought I'd post it because they are getting lost in all the election & financial "coverage."

The only thing marring that otherwise inspirational moment is the fact that they had to watch "Spiderman 3" after it.

Good point - I too thought that movie sucked.

It's a nice story, but I'm not sure what he's trying to say that it indicates about those Marines.

He is trying to say that Marines are militant. Wow. News Flash.

Oh really Cic - Is that what you got out of it?

Absolutely. I've seen some peeps do this in my time.

Were you ever trained to stop what you were doing at 5:00 or 5:30 or when someone died, or for whatever, no matter what it was, when the trumpet sound came on? Then stood there facing the best guestimation of where the speaker is with your hand over your heart for the duration? I'm a civilian though. I have never had to go out of my way....I was never trained to do the same shit over and over again....and take it seriously. What the hell would I know about base movie theaters in remote locations?

What I got out of it? Nothing has changed... Militants are still...militant.

I have never seen a base movie theater react with any disrespect or disregard for the National Anthem. People that serve take it seriously, especially anyone of any rank of consequence. And their families.

This is a conditioned response. I am no longer Pavlov's dog and can choose for myself now, what I am giving my respect to, and my moments of silence.

Dedication is what I got out of it. I don't think militant has anything to do with it. We just have different perspectives.

Dedication was never in question....More of the same...was. It's no news flash. Once again.

I guess there's a news flash for you: Military people are militant...Which is why they are called Military.

News Flash: You think that the word Militant is derrogatory. Obviously.

Now you tell me what any of that has to do with it?

I am just going to shake my head here. That is all.

:rolleyes:

I admit we have a very different culture here.
The armed forces nominally serve the crown, but I would really snicker if I read that a bunch of squaddies stood up and waited for the national anthem to begin again.

Then again, we don't play it before films (WTF?!) so as I say it's a huge cultural difference.

Perhaps it's just because our national anthem is about a person, but it's really not considered important to revere it. It's just a song, it's not this country. It may well get changed at somepoint, same with the flag. Neither is England (or the other various monikers for our islands).

Well we agree on that at least, I shook mine after your first post.

Cicero,

I'm not sure if you meant to dishonor me, if it were only me, I wouldn't care.

When I trained a young man to enter and clear a room, I trained some conditioned responses.

When I taught a young man about the history, tradition, and customs of the Army...I believe I was teaching him to respect the men and women whose shoulders he stands upon today. Soldiers like the following:

SHERIDAN, CARL V.

Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Army, Company K, 47th Infantry, 9th Infantry Division. Place and date: Frenzenberg Castle, Weisweiler, Germany, 26 November 1944. Entered service at: Baltimore, Md. Birth: Baltimore, Md. G.O. No.: 43, 30 May 1445. Citation: Attached to the 2d Battalion of the 47th Infantry on 26 November 1944, for the attack on Frenzenberg Castle, in the vicinity of Weisweiler, Germany, Company K, after an advance of 1,000 yards through a shattering barrage of enemy artillery and mortar fire, had captured 2 buildings in the courtyard of the castle but was left with an effective fighting strength of only 35 men. During the advance, Pfc. Sheridan, acting as a bazooka gunner, had braved the enemy fire to stop and procure the additional rockets carried by his ammunition bearer who was wounded. Upon rejoining his company in the captured buildings, he found it in a furious fight with approximately 70 enemy paratroopers occupying the castle gate house. This was a solidly built stone structure surrounded by a deep water-filled moat 20 feet wide. The only approach to the heavily defended position was across the courtyard and over a drawbridge leading to a barricaded oaken door. Pfc. Sheridan, realizing that his bazooka was the only available weapon with sufficient power to penetrate the heavy oak planking, with complete disregard for his own safety left the protection of the buildings and in the face of heavy and intense small-arms and grenade fire, crossed the courtyard to the drawbridge entrance where he could bring direct fire to bear against the door. Although handicapped by the lack of an assistant, and a constant target for the enemy fire that burst around him, he skillfully and effectively handled his awkward weapon to place two well-aimed rockets into the structure. Observing that the door was only weakened, and realizing that a gap must be made for a successful assault, he loaded his last rocket, took careful aim, and blasted a hole through the heavy planks. Turning to his company he shouted, "Come on, let's get them!" With his .45 pistol blazing, he charged into the gaping entrance and was killed by the withering fire that met him. The final assault on Frezenberg Castle was made through the gap which Pfc. Sheridan gave his life to create.

The above is a Medal of Honor Citation. I know this story well, I was a Drill Sergeant in B 2/47 Infantry at Fort Benning. I know that his company strength that day started at 240 men, I also know that he stopped in the middle of of 1000 yard advance under heavy artillery fire to pick up more weight. More weight that proved to be crucial in the coming fight. He normally only carried two rounds for his Bazooka. The 35 men left out of 240 did not stop and say "fuck it, I"m done", they finished the job. I will always maintain that we honor these brave fighting men when ever we display respect and honor to the flag of our nation. Including standing in the theater before a movie while the National Anthem is played.

You may compare such actions to Pavlov's dogs, in doing so you devalue and dishonor these same brave fighting men of our history.

Quite frankly it pisses me the fuck off.

/off rant.

Cic, everything you have and everything you hold dear, you can thank the military for.

Including the ignorance not to see that. It's a certain kind of luxury, that ignorance. You get to have it and still be defended.

So you stand at attention for the playing of the national anthem and if the anthem stops you stay at attention. When you shoot at the enemy and the enemy decides to quit and go home, do you keep shooting at empty space?

No; but, I might start singing as those Marines did and with my voice I need all the auditorium practice I can get!

Yours was a false analogy. The national anthem was expected to be played again after the first time it stopped.

You guys can screw off if you think that I was berating the military. Talk about ignorance of the military.....:) I like the flying leap to conclusions here. The true ignorance.

Maybe you could do a better job of explaining yourself, instead of just shaking your head.

I was indicating that I was done with this topic. Which is why you jumped in now isn't it? Screw it. I'm still done with this topic. Let me explain, that I don't care to explain myself to you. ok? I am done with this topic. I get to decide when I am done with something and there isn't anything you can do to change that. Why do I need to explain myself? Again? Do I have a written agreement somewhere to explain the inner-workings of my mind, and why I say anything I say? I am not allowed to just give up a conversation that I didn't like in the first place? Are you going to allocate the time I spend on it?

This is not a bone I am going to pick because I do not care enough. You don't get to decide that for me.

You don't have to explain yourself one bit -- unless you care about what the people think of you.

You seemed to care for a moment there, but now you've thrown this minor tantrum and it looks like you just want out of the thread without explaining yourself.

Yea. Now I have no intention of "explaining myself" to you. Absolutely not. Anyone that can jump to conclusions about my so-called ignorance of the subject doesn't deserve any further explanations, due to the fact that they would obviously continue to jump to drastic conclusions, no matter what was explained.

We have entered the scenario of, "no explanation will serve". So why should I entertain that notion of an explanation, bound to fall on deaf ears?

That's an interesting statement. Expected to be played again, rather than pick up where it left off? Because if interrupted it doesn't count? Or the military way is to start over as many times as necessary to get it right?

Maybe they started singing because they knew they were going to be standing at attention until it was finished, and since the person playing the recording screwed up, twice, they would take matters into there own hands, to git r done.

The fact that they all joined in, if not together, very quickly, shows a like mind set, or at least the ability react to the unexpected in unison. However, saying they did it out of respect for the brave men and women that fought and died before them, might be stretching it a bit.

That's my problem with it too. It's a song. I have very strong views about people who don't observe the two minutes silence. I will make sure it is observed on 11 November this year in the office, and I will make a big deal about it. I will wear my poppy as every year and I'll observe the two minutes silence on Rembrance Sunday as well (belts & braces approach)

But I can't equate a song - sung at sports games and in schools, in cinemas and concerts - with respect for the military. YMMV.

Don't do it for my sake, do it for everybody who reads the thread.

From the Snopes Forum, discussing the glurge "I am your flag"
Okay not the national anthem, but with a similar feel I think.

Cicero, I think everyone knows what you meant in your post. I did and I didn't see any disrespect. Of course, you walk on dangerous territory whenever you step on someones poetically patriotic toes by being pragmatic, doncha know.

I really don't know what she meant. I may be the only one, but that is why I asked.

Oh now I just saw how I've dishonored all the dead and living soldiers that someone knows because I called that a conditioned response.

Another conditioned response is to say that you have shat all over someone's valued memory when someone says something you don't agree with. That's low.

How does that grab you? Be pissed all you want. I haven't done a damb thing to dishonor you or the people you have known in the military.

Oh that's another thing:

In fact, I have actually helped, personally, one of the fellow soldiers you served with, in a variety of ways throughout the years. As he has helped me on several occasions as well. So. Stick it. The proof is in the pudding here.

Well, I have to admit, I did go a little far with his nick name a couple of times...:) I have always respected him and his military action. Despite the illness that it caused. You are talking to the wrong person about the "dishonor" of your fellow soldiers, and yourself. If I hadn't had personal interactions with one of them for several years it might be a little different. Wrong girl.

And another thing: I didn't honor him just because of his service in the military, he was good friend because he was honorable outside of the military. He was a good guy.

Hmmm...maybe I won't call him flatfoot anymore. :)

Thanks for your continued participation in the thread.

You were saying that they are conditioned to be "militant". You used the word "militant" several times.

When classic posted the dictionary definition of it, did the definition agree with your understanding of the word?

You are saying that the Marines' response to the event was uninteresting because it was a conditioned response. I find the response to be noble even if it is conditioned. Even if it is duty. Especially if it's military. I myself cannot recall having accepted any similar conditioning, in the name of duty, service, or any other thing. In that regard I find myself wanting, and extra thankful that there are people who actually enjoy that sort of conditioning in order to defend my sorry ass.

I just saw regular's post which is why I just responded to it...And thank you for your continued participation in this thread as well. :)

Sorry for the in-process edit :) I'm not finished posting until five minutes after the post is made!

I find your reaction to this very disappointing Cicero. You have every right to respond any way you want but I'm surprised at your condescension in this case. That theatre is made up of individuals who each chose to do something. You may not like the organization, the leadership, or even the very tradition they were observing, but to dismiss their actions as they were simply well trained dogs is just a bit too much.:(

[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin mīlitāns, mīlitant-, present participle of mīlitāre, to serve as a soldier; see militate.]

A militant is a soldier. Which is where the word comes from. Soldiers. Or am I still full of it?

Yes I understand things.

Not so perfectly all the time, but enough. The origin was so cleverly left out of the first definition.

Thus, the head shake.

Militant militant militant...if it is so amusing to hear me say it..... I am not going to explain the word or myself anymore.



Of course, from an emotive standpoint what I said was seriously harsh. But no disrespect was meant, at all. Okay? There.

It was the Pavlov remark that really got me going. But then I guess you could tell.

Disrespect was taken, but now I'm letting it go....see?

I'm like the old monk guy walking with the young monk by the river. I set her down 10 miles ago.

So, to sum up, from a head shake, we were supposed to understand that classic had left out the word origins, which you were using as your definition instead of the definition currently in use.

I gotta tell ya, I'll admit it, I'm just not that intuitive.

Also, the Amazing Fucking Kreskin isn't that intuitive.

I didn't have to use intuition to know the definition. And I usually take into account the origins of words when I am using a current definition. That's just me......I didn't have to look it up. I used no psychic ability when I used the word as I knew it. I am so sorry if it bothers you when I actually know the defintion of a word I am using.

You are just as capable as anyone else to look up a word. It isn't a psychic ability. It's prior knowledge, that can even be cross-checked by google.

Whatever. You thought someone throwing a definition at me, as a check, was sufficient. I knew differently.

Get over it.

I have a knee jerk reaction when someone throws definitions at me I already know, to be cocky, when the word itself is broader than their cut and paste jobby.

It was partly a joke about soldiers being militant. Because it was supposed to be redundant. I can not intuit what others know and what they don't.

Kind of like you.

Okay, guys, settle down. We DO all realize the major issue here is one of misunderstanding rather than deliberate, malice-aforethought disrespect, right? I have to admit I was a bit put-off by Cicero's remark at first as well (no offense, Cic, just hear me out) but after the comment was explained, it made sense. Seems to me everyone's just jumping on everyone for a simple misunderstanding, and y'all need to take a deep breath, step back, and chill.

my two cents. For what it's worth.

Election year cellar.

The answer to your question should have been self evident. The article states that the Marines finished the anthem. They could have started it over again; but, didn't. I've not heard of a protocol that requires them to do so. Playing the anthem over a sound system is a different matter. One may reasonably expect it to be difficult to pick up precisely where the interruption left off depending on the audio media and who's controlling it (those positions can be outsourced). Replaying the anthem was most likely just a practical solution. For a different perspective, from a similar situation during an Olympic US gold medal ceremony, read this short CBSSports.com wire report and pay particular attention to the first reply to the article. ;)

We don't know if it was operator error; or, equipment failure. I concur that someone commendably stepped forward to get the job done; but, that took only ONE Marine. :eyebrow:

It was primarily camaraderie and remembrance figures into that more than you probably realize. When I went through US Special Forces training, unit history was taught and it was testable knowledge. Unit lineage, key people, exceptional missions, and the sacrifices previous members made were included. I even had to memorize the name of the first Special Forces Medal of Honor recipient of the Vietnam conflict [Captain Donlon]. A good example of unit camaraderie spanning time might come from the day that I, a next generation SFer, had Easter dinner with Colonel Donlon (SAA, follow the link). Remind me to tell you about that sometime. :cool:

True words.

I must admit, I wasn't happy with the Pavlov's dog comment. It suggests a mindlessness which I think is unfair to say the least. If you mean they are conditioned to respond in a particular way, well yes and no. I doubt they have an actual policy regarding how to return to an athem if it's been halted, but the army is a culture and those serving within it can be expected to respond in a manner appropriate to that culture. We are all culturally conditioned in many ways.

Why would soldiers in a desert, many miles from home, with their own internal culture and traditions, respond in the same way to an anthem, which for most us has little currency beyond its use in sports and national events?

On the word 'militant': I can see how the dictionary definition might give an unfair bent to Cicero's words, but frankly, I don;t see how it is not immediately apparent what the word's origins are, and how that makes it the appropriate word in this context. They are the military; they are by their choice to serve, and by their inculcation into a military culture, militant. The traditions that the military adhere to are necessarily 'militant', because they of the military.

Because that is their culture. It's basically an insular feeling of camaraderie and superiority, especially when many miles from home.

Exactly, so there's no reason to assume they'll react like one of us when we hear the national anthem. It means something different in that context, and to that internal culture.

Cic - I'm not sure how to respond to you. I'm just gonna say what I think and let it go from there. I like you and I was/am surprised at your response

I took the standard most common definition of the word "militant." No I didn't need to go back to the middle English derivations of it nor the origins of the word because its application has a very different meaning today. I thought the most common widely accepted definition was fine. I would further submit that the negative connotations associated with the word "militant" were intentional. If you meant soldier, you would have used soldier, not militant. You meant exactly what you said and thats fine. For someone with such a broad vocabulary like yourself, there were certainly many other words you could have chosen. Its ok, we just disagree - great thing about this country, we can agree to disagree and not get shot for it by any militants.

General statement - To answer why they did what they did I'll just list a few words that come to mind off the cuff. Honor, respect, dedication, pride, duty, desire, tradition, camaraderie, sacrifice.

Superiority has nothing to do with it.

NoBoxes,

I see that you have elected to not be contacted by PM. Could you please PM me with private contact info? Thank you.

Well, I wasn't there so I don't know, but I suspect the reason they all started singing was the same reason as when someone turns off the lights and starts singing happy birthday. Everyone just joins in and knows the words.

It only takes one person to start, and generally, regardless of the song, anyone who knows it will start singing.

Maybe the one voice that started everyone off just wanted to see the fucking movie. ;)

It's part of the culture.

Teamwork and the notion that the the sum is greater than the parts which it consists of - Each knowing they are expendable and willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good as many have already done... oh nevermind. :mad: