What is the purpose for income tax?
 

This has been bugging me for a little while. The argument over who should pay what percentage of their income to the government goes back and forth. I hear that the wealthy should pay more. I hear the working class should get more breaks. I hear each person should pay his fair share.Most people have only arbitrary answers when asked to define wealthy, working class, and fair share. The strawmen get dragged out. Warren Buffett pays less tax than his secretary is a popular if misleading one. What bothers me is that people don't seem to stop and think why those taxes are collected or how we came to accept the numbers we currently use.

My understanding is that income taxes are collected from the people of the United States to fund the activities of the United States government. It would seem to me that the idea of having a budget that is anything other than balanced is just plain idiotic. Our government is a non-profit organization so it should collect only what it needs to run the programs and possibly a little extra for a rainy day fund. When receipts go down either expenses have to go down or income tax rates must increase. That is just basic common sense, but we don't give it much consideration.

It seems that we have come to accept a budgetary process that is completely disjointed. The government spends whatever it wants in ever increasing amounts without any real consideration of where the money comes from. Programs are started and empires are expanded as the political figures do their dance with each side giving misleading soundbytes to garner support. Then to actually fund the budget the government establishes arbitrary tax rates that aren't based on anything other than gaining votes. When is the last time someone actually divided the total expenses and divided that number up to match up against available taxpayers?

I hear that our goal is fairness in the tax system. Is taking a disproportionately large percentage of money from a disproportionately small number of people really fair or does it just feel good? Does it really make sense to have a progressive tax system that comes packed with loopholes to allow the people we say we want to pay more to actually pay less? Are the tax tables really designed to offset government expenses or merely to take money from the rich and give it to the poor? It doesn't really succeed at either.

The question in all of this is simply, are taxes a means to fund necessary functions of government or are they just a way to play Robin Hood?

The government has no conscience. Just an appetite and the will to survive.

Its never been about fairness or wealth redistribution. Its allways been about hunger and preserving one's political future. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm right with you lookout. It bothers me when people want the government to solve all of their problems and think nothing of the fact that the government is so inefficient with our tax dollars it's absurd. For example, lets compare the government with Habitat for Humanity (personal bias, one of my favorite NGO's). According to the BBB website, Habitat "Uses of Funds as a % of Total Expenses:
Programs: 81% Fund Raising: 15% Administrative: 4%". That's 81% of all $$ given to them that goes directly into the work they offer as an organization. Granted the workers who help build the houses are volunteers which helps maintain these percentages, but lets be real who do you think is doing a better job per $ given to help the genuinely needy have quality shelter and dignity?

I'll take Robin Hood for 50 LO.

And the purpose of the government is to hand no-bid contracts to people like Halliburton, and to give no-strings bailouts to failures.

Oddly enough, you can say the same thing about a corporation.

There actually was no problem with this at the beginning of the war. Later it was a problem.

Personal Income tax is only half the picture.But personal income tax rates are subject to checks and balances.

The poor ain't got no money - moot

The middle class have lots of votes - check

The rich kick in more campaign funds - balance

Ain't easy being a politician. :haha:

True, but a corporation doesn't have police power.

Yes they do...they borrow the governments.

Ftw.

No bid contracts are ALWAYS a problem.

Usually, but sometimes no-bid follow on contracts are practical and expedient.

Which is exactly what they were in the case of Haliburton at the time. Same for another independent contracting organizations and companies that had been in the business of supplying services to the military for years. There is a lot of ignorance and parroting of complaints about how this system works and how these companies, smartly, positioned themselves to do the good work that they did. The abuses cannot be ignored and neither can the good.

Which is why it was unfortunate that several Republican Senators blocked the passage of the Contractors and Federal Spending Accountability Act last year....it passed in the House on a bi-partisan voice vote.

Expedience is the enemy of integrity.

Not in the case of the early no-bid contracts which supported the early operations of the wars.

If I recall, one of the first Halliburton no-bid contracts, to import gas from Kuwait to support the early operation of the war, was found by the Defense Contracting Auditing Agency to have overcharged by $millions.

The contracts didn't support the wars. In fact, they undermined them.

And the means don't justify the ends.

Then there's all that glorious construction done by KB&R, etc...one soldier electrocuted in the shower, feces from bad piping dripping down through light fixtures to lower floors, etc.

KB&R employees leaving sandwiches with mayo on them out overnight, then serving them to soldiers, etc.

Yeah. That really helped the war effort.

But they resulted in the value of Cheney's stock options in Halliburton increasing by more than 3000 percent.

And there you have explained the inexplicable. Why did we have a war in Iraq?

Oh, yeah.

Not in my experience. Haliburton and KBR have positioned themselves to service many aspects of military deployments in peace and war. They were standing at the door when the wars began and they did a damm good job of doing what they do best, supplying the needs and infrastructure for the deploying troops. There were no other companies to compete with them because they did not exist.

Meh. Appeal to ridicule.

You have nothing to say. At least nothing worth listening to.

Sorry, didn't read. I hope you didn't put much thought into it.

TGRR,
Not interested in dealing with your bullshit (see above) at the moment.

From DCAA, GAO and CPA audits....

In December 2003, a DCAA draft audit reported that Halliburton overcharged the Defense Department by $61 million to import gasoline into Iraq from Kuwait through September 30, 2003.

On December 31, 2003, a DCAA “Flash Report” audit found “significant” and “systemic” deficiencies in the way Halliburton estimates and validates costs. According to the DCAA audit, Halliburton repeatedly violated the Federal Acquisition Regulation and and submitted a $2.7 billion proposal that “did not contain current, accurate, and complete data regarding subcontract costs.”

On January 13, 2004, DCAA concluded that Halliburton’s deficiencies “bring into question [Halliburton’s] ability to consistently produce well-supported proposals that are acceptable as a basis for negotiation of fair and reasonable prices”

In a May 13, 2004, audit, DCAA reported “several deficiencies” in Halliburton’s billing system that resulted in billings to the government that “are not prepared in accordance with applicable laws and regulations and contract terms.” DCAA also found “system deficiencies resulting in material invoicing misstatements that are not prevented, detected and/or corrected in a timely manner.”

On June 25, 2004, the CPA IG found that, as a result of poor oversight, Halliburton charged U.S. taxpayers for unauthorized and unnecessary expenses at the Kuwait Hilton Hotel. According to the IG, the overcharges would have amounted to $3.6 million per year.

In July 2004, GAO found ineffective planning, inadequate cost control, and insufficient training of contract management officials under LOGCAP in Iraq. GAO reported that, when Halliburton acted as a middleman for the operation of dining halls, costs were over 40% higher.

In an August 16, 2004, memorandum, DCAA “identified significant unsupported costs” submitted by KBR, a Halliburton subsidiary, and found “numerous, systemic issues . . . with KBR’s estimates.”...When DCAA examined seven LOGCAP task orders with a combined proposed value of $4.33 billion, auditors identified unsupported costs totaling $1.82 billion

Hmmmm....Merc's "experience" or federal audits of Halliburton contracts in the first 18 months of US occupation.

You decide.

I didn't say there weren't problems, I said they did a great job of providing the services they set themselves up to do at the out set of the wars. Abuses occurred as the time ticked away. And the system was set up to allow them to happen.

I dont think overcharging the govt by $tens of millions and not providing documentation for other costs in the range of $hundreds of millions af the outset of the war is doing a "great job."

I hope you would be supportive of Obama's proposal to begin to address the systemic problems...or at least view it with an open mind:

...I further direct the Director of OMB, in collaboration with the aforementioned officials and councils, and with input from the public, to develop and issue by September 30, 2009, Government-wide guidance to:

(1) govern the appropriate use and oversight of sole-source and other types of noncompetitive contracts and to maximize the use of full and open competition and other competitive procurement processes;

(2) govern the appropriate use and oversight of all contract types, in full consideration of the agency's needs, and to minimize risk and maximize the value of Government contracts generally, consistent with the regulations to be promulgated pursuant to section 864 of Public Law 110-417;

(3) assist agencies in assessing the capacity and ability of the Federal acquisition workforce to develop, manage, and oversee acquisitions appropriately; and

(4) clarify when governmental outsourcing for services is and is not appropriate, consistent with section 321 of Public Law 110-417 (31 U.S.C. 501 note).

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_...t-Contracting/

I dont expect it to fix the systemic problems but its a start and I dont recall such proposed contracting reform by the previous administration

In that situation I think he is right on target. I don't believe it will impede the creativity of those who will take advantage of the loop holes created by the democratic stimulus bill.

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I am always willing to help Mercenary destroy a thread.

:3eye:

Oh it hasn't been destroyed at all.

Give it time, little fella. After all, if you can post ridiculous appeals to ignorance and appeals to ridicule, I can post big walls of text to make my point.

I wanna be JUST LIKE YOU, Merc! :3eye:

What walls of text?

Are you talking to that little thing in your pants again? :lol2:

Oh cool! a red x.

Maybe you suck at the internet.

Naw, just some great filters. I don't want your job.

:rolleyes:

He definitely sucks at the internet, I can see it.

Cute mom.

Merc, you definitely suck at the internet. I can see all of Roger's pics.

That's your mom?

What a coincidence. :)

The only solution to the wealth redistribution program of the Obama administration:

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

:lol2:

Fairtax. :lol:

Good luck with that, Jethro.

Thank you.

It beats the weath redistribution plans now in place and being further developed hands down.

What you got Opie?

Let us know when that passes congress, okay?

:lol:

Also, it's funny watching you poke up your arse for some rich people to get busy in.

Just saying.

Oh, I thought you had something of substance to bring to the table.

In that case:

http://phaedo.cx/wp-content/uploads/..._wants_you.jpg

I tried that earlier, and you decided you like appeal to ridicule better.

So now I'm just going to post like you do, Merc. We'll have fun.

Ok. :D Whateva.

What is the FairTax plan?
The FairTax plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including a progressive national retail sales tax, a prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level, dollar-for-dollar federal revenue neutrality, and, through companion legislation, the repeal of the 16th Amendment.

The FairTax Act (HR 25, S 296) is nonpartisan legislation. It abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities.

The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.

The FairTax:

Enables workers to keep their entire paychecks
Enables retirees to keep their entire pensions
Refunds in advance the tax on purchases of basic necessities
Allows American products to compete fairly
Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding
Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
Abolishes the IRS
We offer a library of information throughout this Web site about the features and benefits of the FairTax plan. Please explore!



The FairTax Five

The gloves are off as critics try to pick apart the FairTax. Trouble is, it's just a replay of the same five FairTax myths:

"The 23% rate is misleading. It's actually 30%"
Well, actually...
"It's not enforceable and evasion will be rampant"
Well, actually...
"It will not be revenue neutral at 23%"
Well, actually...
"The FairTax is not politically viable"
Well, actually...
"The FairTax is regressive and shifts the tax burden onto lower and middle income people"
Well, actually...

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...ame=about_main

Wait. We can't do that. We have to bail out the insurance and banking industry. Obama already spent the money we don't have.

Tell me, Mercenary. Do you have another record? Besides "lol obama," I mean?

A: A way to get poor dumbasses to support the rich, in the rich's never-ending quest to cornhole the poor.

Fortunately, libertarians only make up 4% of the nation's voters, and then there's maybe another 5% total elsewhere who think it's a damn shame that the rich pay more money than poor people...

...so it's also a pipe dream.