What to believe
 

The Buddha promotes critical thinking:

http://cellar.org/2010/donotbelieve.jpg

That's pretty good, but can I have an example of anything that is of benefit to one and all? Actually I guess he said "conducive to the benefit" so that softens it a bit.

I would have said: But after observation and analysis, when you find anything that agrees with reason, then accept it and live up to it regardless of whether you think it is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all or not.

The worst acts of history were made possible because someone thought they had a sufficient reason to override what could be logically supported.

Edit: Also, the most outlandish things that people believe are made possible when someone thinks they have sufficient reason to override what can be logically supported, i.e. I miss my dead familly member so much that I can be convinced that I will float up to the clouds after I die and I will see them again, and the residual energy that inhabited our corporal vessels will still have two arms and two legs and a first and last name, and still remember or care about Earthly things like eating hot dogs at Yankee stadium.

I've had a hot dog at Yankee stadium. Not really something I want to be remembering for eternity.

So, Buddha must be preaching to the choir.

Tang.

We could really use the reduction of zealotry this sort of thinking leads to. It is unfortunate that reincarnation got inserted into such a reasonable philosophy, but I guess you don't have to believe it.

Have you ever been in the general vicinity of a fundamentalist Protestant type and a Buddha at the same time. (?)

You'll find that assertion, on it's face value, fails.

What to believe
 

Well, you can now believe that coberst is the Buddha's virtual reincarnation and plan to follow him. :rolleyes:

WHAT TO BELIEVE
 

I think a good rule of thumb is that things that rhyme are true. For instance, "paralysis by analysis" is a thing to avoid. It rhymes!

To test this theory, and make it all scientifical and whatnot, I am making a hypnothesis--which is a science thing that means "a paper so long that it puts you to sleep when you try to read it." In this way, the tyranny of science can be upheld, without any pesky question-askers gumming up the works.

HYPNOTHESIS experiment #1: what feels good on your throat, feels good on your scrote.

STEP ONE: I prepared a hot-water solution of honey and lemon, and prepared to "teabag" my way into SCIENCE HISTORY (note: this is science HIStory, i.e. vag-havers need not apply).

Just then, a thought came to me (on these rare occasions--I take notice!) will this act be conducive to the good and benefit of one and all ???



The jury is still out on that one... but in the meantime I think I've invented a new Yoga technique, so I'm writing a book:

I really appreciate the attention to detail you showed in the scrote to asscrack area. It shows tremendous depth of character as well as critical thinking skillz.

But what if reincarnation actually happens in the karmatic way that Buddhist teaching believes? I mean, really, who knows what happens after death? Spirit, soul, whatever you want to call it.

I have one to add "Do not believe anyone on the internet is who they say they are simply on the basis of a picture, and a few words...unless you choose to."

Ok, lemme say it for ya, "Frak, Draxxie, not this again. :headshake"

Aren't there some little girls you should be staring at?

:lol:

Whether it happens or not doesn't matter really does it? I don't think it changes my approach and any hope for revenge on evil doers isn't a healthy way to live. I see the idea of reincarnation as a result of the same attachment Buddhist teaching asks us to avoid. Maybe I've become too attached to the idea that when the lights go out they stay out.

I guess I am not seeing where the revenge angle got into it. It changes much about the way we conduct ourselves in this life if you believe that another one awaits you.

I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows.

No, I don't really believe that...seems a bit disproportionate.

That's very Zen, Griff. Most non Buddhists think of Buddhism as being a single religion when in fact there are probably as many schools or variations of Buddhism as there are in Christianity. Perhaps the biggest difference being that you don't have the Zen schools (yes there are many) warring with the Tibetan Schools (also many) like you have the Catholics and Protestants doing.

I say your point is Zen because when it comes to things like re-incarnation, the Zen school is more about "This Very Moment" What will you do NOW?

When I first started studying with my teacher I asked him "What about reincarnation?"
"What about it?"
"Do we die and get reincarnated?"
"Who is it that dies?"
and so on, always bringing you back to right now.

Many people's ideas of "Karma" and reincarnation as being a form of payback are misinterpretations based on distortions from the lens of the Judaeo-Christian ideologies.

There isn't a divine judge meting out punishment in Buddhism. (Avoiding a long discussion of the various deities in Tibetan, of which I know next to nothing) In Zen, at any rate, living a moral and ethical existence does not require the existence of a god.

It's them damn hippies, I tells ya.;)

That is some good onion peeling there, something to ponder.

I do have to adjust my lens after all that Catholicism, it seems I'm as susceptible to that sort of thinking as the heaven and hell folks who helped force my eyes open in the Church.

Correct, based on my understanding of it. It has little to nothing to do with "payback".

Correct again. We are all Gods. You are God. I am God. God is us. I know a bit about Tibetan Buddhism, which is my only interest. Karmic rebirth is completely misunderstood.

Yeah, it's more like cause and effect. a pebble drops in the water and there are ripples. Why is your life the way it is? It's the result of every single choice you made in your life, neither good nor bad. You chose to leave the house without an umbrella and it rained, you got wet. It has nothing to do with being bad or good.

Why am I 35lbs overweight? Because I chose to eat more food than I needed for the past fifteen years.

Ironically, seeing karma as some sort of punishment is rather passive and evading responsibility for one's situation and or actions. Looking at it as a direct result of one's actions is more empowering. The added BS of a judgment only obscures the issue.

It's bred in the bone and won't come out in the flesh.. easily.

As a former Catholic I still check myself, the more I peel though, the more I see similarities and differences. The key difference is the idea of union with God (two becoming one) vs The inherent oneness.

Another key difference is original sin vs. being born perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

In Buddhism, we are all Buddhas, all enlightened. Not everyone has realized it yet. Realized as in made real, not as in understood.

In Zen they are very big on "Don't take my word for it, find out, verify for yourself" This goes back to UT's original posting. Find out for yourself. Belief is wholly inadequate. Belief does nothing for you.

Personally knowing, for a fact, verifying. That is something else.

Faith is the tool of the Devil

Filth is the tool of the Cellar

And don't edit out things he says, either.

Agreed 100%. I usually heavily focus on personal growth when working on my and other people's problems and I found that when self-responsibility is accepted and followed up by self-improvement, those people bounce back much quicker than someone who externally blames their problems. Its much easier to get a boost of confidence from a "okay, I messed this, this, and this up and I will be successful next time by doing this, this, and this" mindset than "there is nothing wrong with me because of this, this, this. I just have bad luck".

Do you have faith your fat ass wont fall to the floor when you sit in a chair? Then start there...oh, Buddha had a fat ass and he only sits on the ground.

Faith in verifiable mathematically consistent physical reality (oak chair supporting 170 lbs.) is hardly the same as faith in FSM inserting himself into our day to day lives, so at present my faith begins and ends with my limited observations. I don't hope for more, but am going through a bit of a world view crisis at the moment so I don't know where I'll land, although I will choose chair or ground in this moment.

Faith, in anyone, or anything, is a waste of time. Faith is wishful thinking. Faith can only result in disappointment.

nope, i have previous experience that it will not. called observation and evidence. not faith.

Plus, if a chair does collapse, there's no faith pushing me to insist that it didn't. And the new evidence may aid in recognizing other chairs that may not be stable.

This is a bit of thread drift...
I had a dream last night that my mom was holding me under the water and hitting my back so that I could not hold in air. She wasn't trying to drown me, she was insisting that if I just "believed" that I could breath, that I could. She was telling me to lie to myself, that I can trick my mind into believing I can breath underwater if I just kept lying to myself and telling me that I could. Then I would actually be able to breath.

I'm mentioning this because that is how I feel about faith. People are just lying to themselves that something is true for so long that they believe it. Doesn't actually make it true.

And your nightmares doesn't make it untrue.

My father kept a copy of "The God Delusion" next to his hospital bed during his transplant. It kept the chaplain away.

Not sure of the connection there, but Buddhism isn't about faith as much as it is about personal verification. See for yourself if your fat ass falls to the ground or if the chair supports it. Don't take my word for it, my word is useless. You need to know for yourself.

regardless of this quotation, Buddhism is not a belief that hinges upon rationality or reason or empiricism at all. Notice in the last few lines how the basis of one's actions becomes dependent upon whether or not that action is good or not? This is no longer a basis on reason alone, but now it encompasses emotions and feelings of the good....which leads us back to our original problem of which the quote attempts but fails to find a solution: how should I act to maximize my potential and good?

Two subjective decisions, eh?;)

There are people who spend their entire lives contemplating and practicing and meditating and studying this and other religions. I doubt there is much value in forming an opinion based on reading a short, possibly poorly translated, supposedly quoted paragraph in an online forum where you are logged out if you touch the monkey.

All of our informed opinions, together based on a hour (I'm making a highly generous guess) spent considering this passage against millions of monks and lay people practicing this religion for 2500 years seem to be slightly wanting.

And the passage quoted is not the definition of Buddhism.

The problem with that question is that there is never a single answer that is right in every single case. In fact, depending on circumstances, two different cases may require entirely opposite solutions.

Read up on "The Five Ranks of Master Tozan" where this is discussed at length.

If you are late because you were doing a good deed, the traffic lights will turn green as you approach.

That is what to believe.

If it was a selfless good deed, the hobo might not step out in front of you as you accelerate.

You have done well Grasshopper! Saddha is often contradictory and confusing to me. Just search on this term and see what is says about faith.

Also I have heard that "seeking the truth" is a key point in Buddhism. My problem is the truth I may find is not the truth someone else may find. Therefore, it really isn't truth.

I love this question: Do you believe that what you believe is really real?

The best thing I have learned from Buddhism is mindfulness. I've missed out on this most of my life. Wished I had understood this many many moons ago.

thoughts distract you from the purity of being

be, do not think to be.

:D

I learned early to be quite suspect of what I believe. Just because we think it doesn't make it real. I'm also equally suspect of words and the limitations they impose. At best a poor description on "reality." It is said the moment you open your mouth to speak about the Dharma, you are mountains and rivers away from it.

Or as they say in Vermont: "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."

You can't go wrong with mindfulness.

You are responsible for your actions and not for their results. -- Bhagavad Gita

A.K.A., do the right thing and let the chips fall where they may.

That is a very interesting distinction between action and result. I have to ponder that.

But how do you determine what the right thing is, without considering where the chips may fall?

Well, that's the trick. Try your best to figure that out, but don't beat yourself up if it doesn't go the way you planned.

Plan carefully, making your decision based on all available data, work hard to support that, but once the decision is made -- it's out of your hands and the outcome is no longer your responsibility. Only your work in getting up to that point is yours to claim. Success or failure belongs to the universe, not to individuals.

I like it. Added to my quotes file.

The whole Bhagavad Gita?

OK, I get it.

As long as no-one is letting the chips go to waste, wherever they fall....

5-second rule still applies.

It is relatively simple to recognize that what we experience is easily more believable and true for us that what we read, hear or see. The Buddha or the zen carries on one principal fact of self realization. The east have been always believed in the fact that the supreme energy forming the basic primaries of the universe flows through every soul.

What's the difference between what you "experience", and what you "hear or see" ?

Buddhism teaches "anatman"

There is no soul, there is no self.

Oh, so what you "experience" is just what popped into your head, instead of what you "hear or see". Riiiight. :right:

Experiencing may not definitely depend on what you hear or see. It might be beyond these physical senses. Intuitions, for example are completely independent from our other senses. When we try to meditate we try to zero on self. That can be an experience too and we use none of the physical senses then. Instead we try to shut them off.
"Popped" into your head can be an experience, yes. It all depends that how much you lived a thought, an idea or even a dream.