Do Car Dealerships really pull this stuff?
 

From here

The 'four square' gimmick.

you stupid asshole

That's so 1992.

I don't know about that. I faxed 20 dealerships the make, model, and trim level I was looking for and asked them for the best price they could offer. I took the lowest price. I didn't hit the lot until the deal was closed.

I think a lot if not most people today understand that $10 per month adds up. I guess it depends how tired and/or (as LJ puts it) 'stupid' you are.

When we bought one of our cars from a smaller dealership in NE Phila, before we closed we went to a larger dealership to compare. The larger dealership let us walk out after 3 tries to match the deal. At that point the car industry was doing well and they new they could make a better price on another customer, which was fine by us.

Is the Pharmacist that sold your Health Insurance company pills with 1000% mark up laughing all the way to the bank too?

nope - He's bitching about how much the insurance costs on his Ferrari.

Ooooh, touchy.:stickpoke

My son's a car salesman now too. While he's happy to make a sale, so far I haven't heard any 'I really screwed this customer stories from him'. I think he's managed to keep his soul intact.

I never accused you of doing any of this LJ, but you seem strangely upset.:eyebrow:

If you really need me to explain why this thread and articles like the one you linked piss me off, I will.

I can go into great detail about how fucked up the public's perception of how car dealers should operate is, and how much damage assholes like the authors of these articles (who have typically spent all of 3 months in the business and failed at it) cause to what I do for a living.

What other business do you patronize that you can EXPECT a discount on their merchandise? And why do people resent every dollar of profit a dealer makes? Did you ask to see the invoice for the wedding ring you bought your wife? I guarantee they made a higher percentage of profit than the dealer you chiseled when you bought your Quest.

It's a good idea to do your research before you shop, but the vilification of all dealers because they have developed some skill in selling their wares really frosts my balls sometimes. Especially when some smarmy fuck 'exposes' the 'gimick'

People that read ( and believe)this shit hate buying cars, and exist in fear of being 'screwed.' They don't know when they've gotten an honestly fair deal, and are suspicious and unpleasant to do business with.


With all that said, I don't come to where you work and slap the dick out of YOUR mouth, so don't be so surprised that this irritates me.

I bought my car and the dealer did not sell me more than I could afford and they are not making that much money from their loan.
It's a great car, it's ''purty'' and it's almost paid off! ...like in a couple months. I actually feel very appreciative. The salesman said he worked hard on the loan for me. Well maybe he says that to everyone, I thought, but there were other people trying to buy cars in their muddy flip flops. I might be a snob but I think a little polish helped and good coworkers. Odd though. He knew my business was going to close down before I did. I denied it of course thinking it would never happen. He sold me the car anyway. If I ever need to trade it in I'm going back there.
They don't sell junk either.

The minute the salesman needs me to talk to a sales manager, then I am ready to walk out the door. I don't immediately. First, I want to see what stupidity they will put before me. One sales manager was introduced as a retired special forces veteran from the Israeli army. I knew immediately these guys thought I was that dumb. After my third question, obvious he was not special forces. He was a sales manager doing the sales manager lies - which is the only reason they wanted me to talk to him.

Best car I ever got was also the easiest deal. An old salesman said, "Look, I know you have looked around and have the prices. This is our price. Here is our list of options. What do you want to do?"

Got the same price from him I would get anywhere else. The entire deal was done in 10 minutes. And we never wasted time with any sales manager.

Most dealers will waste a full hour with the customer. Well, I guess most customers and that dumb and manipulated. If they cannot make the deal in 10 minutes, suspect a scam complete with a sales manager to add more sales manipulation.

When I bought my Sentra , I saved two thousand by pitting two dealerships against each other. I don't feel bad about that.

do you have to do a lot of stretching before you self fellate like that?

I had a fairly good experience at the dealership where I bought my car. It was between that one and one other, who offered the same price but different color. When I asked the dealer to fax me a signed agreement on the price with the VIN number of the car he stalled and obfuscated and it became apparent that he was full of shit and didn't expect to honor his verbal deal. He wouldn't answer my calls, so fuck him. I wasn't trying to get over on him, I just said: Here's the car I want, What's your price?

Out of 20 dealers I faxed, about 15 responded with prices ranging from 22.9K to 15.8k That one guy was the only douchebag out of 15. The rest were just business people doing business. There wasn't anything personal about it. "Sorry, I got a better offer of 15.8K thanks for your time, I appreciate that you got back to me." Every one was polite, except that one guy.

But I bet he is the guy who gives everyone else a bad name.

yup - typically he is the only one you hear about.

i haaaate that guy

yeh - was gonna post a link to that ... THAT GUY thread. meh - just not feelin it.

So its Ok to generalize about lawyers, lobbyists, politicians, etc....just not car salesmen.

When in fact, more people probably had far more direct experiences, often negative, with car dealers, than any of the above.

I have a feeling when it come to sales/buying, many of those "negative" feelings are doubt because they didn't do their homework ahead of time. They don't know if they paid too much or not.

Service departments, however, can really piss you off. :haha:

The four square exists for one reason only. Whichever section you object to will probably be your hot button issue so the sales staff can discard the rest of the fluff and negotiate with you on the thing that matters to you.

the things that car buyers complain exist because of the way the buyer approaches the purchase.

Oh, that's real nice.

I really liked the guy who sold me my Astra (you know, to beat a dead horse, the one that some asshat ran into and totalled after I had it two weeks. Yeah, I'm still bitter.) I would have liked to deal with him again but he couldn't give me a price or a car I was happy with.

I screwed up when I bought my VW. The one salesguy pounced on me, and another walked up behind him. Well, I knew the second guy (know his dad real well, know his daughter, who was a work-study at my old job, know him fairly well...they're just really good people) and if I had any guts at all or at least didn't have the need to be unobtrusive (irl) I would have asked to work with Joe. I liked the other guy well enough, but working with Joe would have been good for both of us.

Anyway, I think that it's true that people go into car dealerships with their attitude ready to go. It's not unlike financial aid, with the mentality that "I'm going to get fucked over so I might as well let them know up front I'm no pushover" before any exchanges have even taken place. Not productive for anyone.

Like any profession, there are good and bad.

If the car salesman was not trying to screw the customer, the deal could be done in 10 minutes. That additional hour spent playing games that include the sales manager - that's the saleman trying to dig deeper in the customers pockets.

10 minutes to make the deal. That's all that is needed. 50 minutes to play salesmen games. Mind games for no useful purpose.

I bought my honda when they were having troubles keeping up with demand, so there was no haggling on price -- full MSRP, take it or leave it. I had already lined up my own financing. There were literally no factors for negotiation.

It was about as emotionless a transaction as buying a paperback from Amazon.

would you define 'screwing' in this context?

would paying the MSRP on a new car mean you got screwed?

If you went into your Honda dealer and offered the Fair Market Value...or MSRP, you'd have your deal in less than 10 minutes.

you might decide, however that you want to haggle..... you might spend 50 minutes doing this, and you may or may not actually purchase the car.

If you don't, the salesman's time was wasted, the dealers advertising money along with it. (it costs us about $350 per deal in advertising) did they not then get 'screwed?'

If you do get a discount, and make your purchase, then you spent that 50 minutes well.

look at the name. DEALer. they make you a DEAL. If you want no haggle, go could always buy a Saturn.....oh wait.....they went under....

Another based on your expertise in...? what was that again?

Even if you tell a client you'll give them a hard price that is barely over invoice they will want to haggle. That is a stone cold fact that I have seen proven time and time again.

As well they should, as the above doesn't factor in the rebates the dealer gets from the mfgr.

There aren't a lot of things in your life that you buy for over $10,000.

One thing I bought is a house. Like almost every real estate deal, it was a multi-step haggle. My house was bought from the previous owner for like $15,000 less than they offered.

The real estate haggle was well understood by people who looked into real estate. You learned that every house was priced 10% over what sellers really wanted. You learned that houses could sit on the market for a year before purchase if the offer price wasn't appropriate.

So, my theory is that all highly expensive deals result in some level of haggle or bureaucracy intended to wrangle more money out of the deal. There is merely too much money on the table, and too many people motivated to offer full price to catch the sucker bets. And the haggle doesn't have to be painful if people research how the deal will generally be structured etc.

Think about how many people make money when you buy a house, even if you get a 'good deal'.... why are their paychecks not frowned upon like the car dealers?

lolz...

What was that advice you gave me a few weeks ago?

don't let your meat loaf?

There's a lot of love in this thread. Someone PM me when you are all ready to sing Kumbaya.

It's just an interwebz forum. ;)

HA HA HA - Thats a trifecta!

Ah...but does your car dealer give its customers advice on financing (shop around...talk to your bank or credit union...) or does the dealer offer to "do them a favor" and finance the car for them (sell them another product) and save them the trouble.

Do the dealers tell the customers that they may add a percentage or two to the APR for themselves after passing the loan over to the finance company.

I agree that it is the customer's responsibility to be educated....but many are not and unlike most retail sales, those uneducated customers are manipulated by the dealer.

added:
Funny thing about "expertise" in the Cellar.

Some only accept it if they agree with that expertise. If that expertise might challenge an opinion, how often is that expertise dismissed around here....just conjecture from personal experience. :)

Redux,
Does your bank tell you that they mark up the rate the Fed sells them the money for? Did you not already know it? If the rate you get is still lower than you can find, have you still been 'manipulated'? Also, it says "The Annual Percentage Rate May Be Negotiable With The Dealer" in bold type right on the face of the contract....

my main objection is the way people point to this or that practice and act like they've been wronged somehow. I'll grant that there are deceptive practices in any business (usually related to advertising), but with the level of regulation and disclosure there is today, you are usually safe at a New Car Dealer.

But if the buyer does their homework, they know what rebates and incentives the dealer is getting on any given day.

I like that. Modern day zen.

Forums should have front door pages that display entrance messages as you enter. Something that sort of sums up the place.

Kinda like the car bumper sticker message bleep.

I dont disagree with most of what you said (the Fed analogy is a bit extreme, since car dealers are not in the business to lend money), but simply that it is a matter of perception and perception is often based or influenced to some degree by personal experiences when it comes to buying a car. IMO, its not enough to say its in bold type in the contract....better customer service would involve the dealer explaining financing options rather than simply promoting their own product...but maybe you do that.

I agree most with the acknowledgment of consumer protection regulations that were sorely needed, IMO, because of a long history of deceptive practices.

But fear not, you beat members of Congress for the first time.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/...6akocgojtg.gif

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124625/ho...tarnished.aspx

...and probably would have beaten telemarketers and lobbyists if they were included this year.

From 2008:

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/...wmolyyrsca.gif

http://www.gallup.com/poll/112264/Nu...s-Ratings.aspx

But, actually, I was more amused by lookout's comment.

I fucking can't believe realtors don't make that list.

Srsly, they're the worst...

Or cellar owners -'cause we all know Unterdoad is robbing us blind here.....

(hit the fricking tip jar, people)

There is a banking license hanging in my office. I'm a Notary. I'm a licensed insurance producer.

While we do not actually lend the money, we DO write the contracts (indirect lending), and are bound by the same laws that govern a lending institution.

So, I have a 'buy rate' and I can 'sell' it for x points of margin depending on the particular lender's program. I cannot offer a lower rate in order to induce some one to purchase an ancillary products. I cannot present the purchase of ancillary products as a condition of credit approval. I must excercise Fair Lending Practice with respect to race, religion, age etc....If I decide that some one is not worthy of credit, I must generate an adverse action letter detailing WHY I've declined them. I have to check your name against the OFAC list, I have to perform Identiy verification, I must safeguard your personal information, I must keep these records for 7 years..... et-friggin-cetera.



I'm just saying....

This aint no Disco

This ain't no honkey-tonk either.

this ain't no foolin' arounnnnnnd...

From the original post:
$10 x 12 months x 5 years = $600. Not $1k, and certainly not $6,000.

Why are we listening to this guy again?

The four-square thing could be either a clear and honest way to represent the variables, or a way to draw the customer into thinking about it in terms of how, rather than whether, to buy (and take finance from the dealer). Provided the customer knows that thy can arrange their own finance, I see no grounds for complaint.