Pedophilia Irish Style
 

I am amazed how nobody is commenting about widespread and condoned pedophilia by the Catholic Church in Ireland.

Lynn Abraham, the District Attorney for Philadelphia, tired of obstruction by the Church. So she subpoenaed their files. Uncovered (and later published) hundreds of Priests only in the Philadelphia diocese know by the Church - that did virtually nothing to protect children.

It was widespread in Boston, Seattle, Rhode Island, California, and who knows how many other dioceses. There are multiple dioceses in the Philadelphia area. Lynn Abraham only subpoenaed the diocese in her jurisdiction. Why are subpoenas not served to every Catholic diocese? We don't want to make waves?

Well it was going for maybe 100 years in Ireland - and they just covered it up. How widespread is pedophilia in the Church especially when church employees magically have no sexual desired - according to the church. But moreso, why so much silence here?

I agree, it's disgusting.
Why are there any Catholics left at all? No excuse for it...

What do you mean doing nothing?

http://www.wsbt.com/news/local/84730832.html

Yea! and the fucking Jews and Muslims too. Kill them all....:cool::neutral::o:p:

For my part, I'm trying to leave the Church behind without the bitterness and anger I often see in ex-Catholics. The Church is practically dead with the quality of new priests way down and right-wingers holding sway. The only folks who seem to have a positive mission are the nuns and they're under pressure from Rome. The Church is over, they just don't know it yet.

The German ped scandal is the one to watch, it could reach the Vatican. It is interesting how little credence the folks left in the Church give to these scandals attributing it more to a leftist atheist agenda in the press than the upside-down nature of the Churches stance on sexuality.

I don't see it as a sexuality issue any more than rape is about sexuality. IT is a power issue. The church has always been about power, the interpretations of the bible are such to ensure the power of the church. If the church really was sincere about their gospel, they would forgive in their hearts the pedophiles after defrocking them, handing them over to the authorities, making restitution to the victims, and then taking steps to be sure this thing never happens again.

In other words, The church is full of shit.

Why has the District Attorney in South Bend not subpoenaed church records from that diocese? After so many well proven revelations in Boston and by the DA for Philadelphia - every name and church published in the Philly Inquirer - why is that not sufficient for most DAs in every city to issue subpoenas? We literally have a nationwide organized crime ring. Except is can hide behind robes and religion?

And some people call the mullahs in Iran evil.

Ireland implies the sex crime ring is international in scope.

squirell nutkin may have hit the nail square on. The powers that be are complicit in minimizing prosecution. In the Philly diocese alone, some 200? clergymen were known sexual deviates according to the church’s own records. How many hundreds are lurking in South Bend? Does law enforcement know? Why not considering this problem appears to exist in every church diocese. If this was the mafia, the feds would have raided diocese cathedrals long ago (smashing kegs of wine Elliot Ness style).

And this problem can be explained (in part) by a myth that justifies celibacy.

But then who was supposed to be dealing with this problem when John Paul II was the Pope? The current Pope. He rejected an appeal from and when most all American bishops went in mass to the Vatican to beg John Paul to address this problem immediately.

Whereas I can appreciate Griff’s attitude. Still, I am amazed how silent virtually everyone has been. Did the vatican (and current Pope) order bishops to continue a coverup? It certainly looks that way.

My parents are still Catholic, and they are very sad watching their church die. It's quite depressing for them. They had never seen the bad side of the Church, and to see it withering down in size to a tiny fraction of its former self, shutting churches all across town and consolidating services into just one church where there used to be half a dozen churches is quite distressing for them. There are no young families in their church. It's just a bunch of old farts and they keep dying off.

I have many die-hard Catholic friends (nearly all my parents age) who feel the same way. It is short sighted of any organization that wants to keep its membership strong to rape the potential new members, then deny the accusations, then spend the coffers buying silence.

Just plain old poor strategy.

It is hardly an Irish problem though. There was a big hullaballo a while ago about the Jesuits shipping all their pedos off to extremely remote locations (Alaska, BC, where they were free to terrorize the the locals who were too isolated to mount a defense.) (Hey, let's send send father cuddly to Bumfuck, Nebraska!)

It's like finding out after all these years what NAMBLA is really up to, but continuing to go to meetings and pay dues because the coffee is good all your friends are there.
I cannot abide.

It is largely that very human tendency to look for supporting facts and ignore the rest. A very few false/unproven accusations of clergy abuse come forward so the faithful give a lot of weight to them dismissing the true scope of the problem. Rush, Hannity, and Beck depend on this lack of openness of mind to keep reactionaries running by feeding them enough information to keep new thoughts out of their heads. We all do it to some extent but some of us try for balance, a lot of folks can't afford that unstable a reality. The shear scale of the Irish problem should help shatter some illusions but I don't see people with a 60 + year commitment breaking off a relationship of this magnitude.

I had thought the Catholic church was one of the Christian denominations that was remaining stronger? However that trend may be dated.

I measure people by their actions; not by their feelings. The Pope's message to be read this Sunday to the congregation calls for this action - more prayer. That is it. Just more prayer. Nothing else.

So how large is denial in Rome? Really. Is there any source that can put their views into perspective? Or are we to judge then entire church only by their overt denials and (again) inaction?

Criminally protecting pedophiles has been exposed in Australia, US, and Ireland. How many more countries because someone in Rome says, "Holiness, I think we had a problem." Or did some insider say that. If you thought the Kremlin was hard to understand. It is just hard to fathom an institution this much in denial.

They were/are growing in Africa where the old school nonsense looks progressive. Around here Vatican II, which may have been the Churches last chance to be relevant, is retreating rapidly and some in the Church even blame that liberalization for the peds. The local Church is being reduced to old folks and extremists. The rift in the Church over the health care debate might show the problem more clearly. The nuns (and hospitals) who also embraced Vat II because it was empowering for women, are in support of health care reform seeing it as helpful in their real world Christian service missions. The Catholic Bishops who actually have political power in the Church are in opposition to the reforms. The same split exists in birth control and to a lesser extent abortion. The reformers are the ones who actually perform Christ's work while the opposition exist apart from the world.

Last numbers I had for the church put average age for a priest at above 60 years old. Just wondering what those numbers are today.

And yes, I have also observed that 'liberalization' blamed for the church's problems. So the church ordered its congregation to change America laws to conform to church doctrine? I cannot think of anything more against American principles.

Again, the question. Are they really that divorced from reality? Do they know what is happening? Or is this their solution?

In corporations, bankruptcy eliminates the problem - fires top management. Shame that the Catholic Church has nothing equivalent.

I think as a social process it's a good thing, in the long run, for these things to come to light, be talked about, and work their way through the legal process. When people are too afraid to talk about things like this, abuse occurs.

I also think about the perpetrators of these crimes. I wonder if these men, and it's not just priests; there are many lay orders who are involved in teaching, recognized that something was not right in themselves, and approached the church because of this. Maybe they thought that with enough prayer and with the guidance of their god they could make up for it somehow, or be cured.

I could talk about the catholic church, who I think didn't conspire so much as ignore, relying on prayer and secrecy to make the problem go away. I could talk about the victims, some of whom endured horrific abuse; and some of whom are probably milking the litigation system for money and blaming everyone else other than themselves for their problems. But things are changing now.

No one really talked about this stuff, until the 70s in the US when the first lawsuits were being brought. Americans should be proud of this really; that people had the courage to speak up, be forthright and not to tolerate the abuse of authority. Europe has been behind us in all this. But I tell you, with the rest of the world catching up now, the catholic church is going to have a tough row. It may endure, but it will take a long time--centuries perhaps--for it to overcome this stigma.

Very thoughtful Cloud. Meanwhile someone is handing Nero his fiddle...

Back then was another popular expression. "You cannot trust anyone over 30."

I guess that translated today into "You cannot trust anyone over 70" which may be the average age of today's priests.

it's sad, truly. I think about this a lot, since I deal with this on a daily basis. My law firm represents a diocese (not the priests/alleged perpetrators).

I was brought up Catholic, my parents and sister are still practicing Catholics and my Godfather is a priest.

None of the above condone paedophilia in any way, shape or form.
They are still Catholic because they believe what has happened is against the teaching of the Bible, against what Jesus stood for and against what the Catholic church really stands for.

They are frustrated and confused by the actions of corrupt members of the clergy, but still hold true to their own personal ideals, which they have formed through their own life experiences.

I'm not Catholic because I am an atheist. Simple.
But I come from a background where I have interacted with many, many Catholics.
The majority will be exactly like my family - distressed and disgusted by what has happened, but still believing that this is human sin, in the one holy and apostolic church, that Jesus is still the way the truth and the light and no-one can come to the Father except through him.

There are plenty of corrupt politicians - liars, homophobes who sleep with rent boys, family values men who get their secretaries pregnant, bribe takers etc etc etc. It doesn't kill the party they belong to.

I'm not condoning what has happened. I think the closeted world of the Catholic priesthood, especially the celibacy law is long outdated (it was introduced for the simple human mercenary reason of inheritance). I'm just trying to put the viewpoint of the good Catholics I know, and why they went to Mass today.

It's also worth pointing out that there are large numbers of committed, caring, faithful priests who aren't abusng their position of trust in this way.

There are no good works that mitigate raping kids.
If raping kids isn't a deal breaker for you - then what the hell is?

A 'deal breaker'? For whom? Catholics don't see this as a problem with Catholicism, they see it as a failure of management, and individual sin.

If you have faith and have never come into contact with a bad priest, then of course it's not a deal breaker.
Football players are often in court for speeding, assault, sexual misconduct. I'm sure their managers and coaches cover up an awful lot. Does that mean people stop watching football? No of course not.

I'm not defending the Catholic church here. But I think to damn all Catholics is a little disingenuous.

First, one does not go to a church to worship the institution. A religious institution forgets that when so corrupt. One goes to church to relate to their god. The church is only a consultant. An intermediary. Nothing more. Their job is to service their clients (religiously - not sexually) in a client’s one to one relationship between that man and that god. Nothing more.

A relationship to god is unchanged no matter how corrupt the consultants are.

Catholic church is nothing more than a company of consultants. They can be fired or ignored. Nothing says you must do what consultants order. Even people who are excommunicated can still enter a church. What are they going to do? Call the police? The relationship is one to one; man to god.

Second, I have heard (and not followed up on) reports that Catholic priests in the Ukraine do get married.

Third, Pope Benedict is one who literally condoned all this when, as a bishop, he routinely refused to confront the problem when it was his job to do so. Corruption is that rampant at the highest levels. He spent more time covering up crimes rather than stopping them. His actions are so similar to top GM management that only bankruptcy could cause changea. There is no President or Board of Directors to force the church to change.

Nobody should be in that church to worship the church – even though corrupt church officers do not want to learn that.

Fourth, how many Catholics believe the Pope is infallible? No. Then those consults were lying again. More honest Catholics should demand the consultants stop lying. That will not happen. Ignore the consultants even if they excommunicate the worshipper. He is only there for the relationship between man and god.

For whom? Are you serious? It's not a problem with catholicism, just management? Management isn;t catholic? Catholics aren't bankrolling this whole child-raping operation they call a church, and then turning a blind eye?

Well, if you're right Dana, that right there is a huge reason why this problem is so pervasive. But yeah, if the coffee is good, and you're friends are there... Yuk.

SG, this has nothing to do with politicians or football players, I don't know where you come up with this shit.

I really think this whole think could bring down the Catholic church as we know it, esp if there is continual proof of the current Pope's ignoring the facts about the abuse. We grew up Catholic and left the church long ago for many reasons. Sad state of affairs.

My point is that for most Catholics, this has precious little to do with cups of tea and a friend network, but that this is (as Sundae mentioned) the one true apostolic church. If you believe that. If you truly believe that the Catholic Church (Peter's See) is the direct descendant of the apostles faith, then problems and scandals are not attached to Catholicism itself. These are manmade problems.

I know catholics who are grieving over this. It doesn't stop them wanting to be catholic. It makes them want the people who currently administrate the Church, and the priests who are guilty (along with those who are complicit) to give answers and clean up their act. But that's all about people. The Church isn't about people. It's two thousand years of history, tradition and divine sanction.

None of that makes it ok in my book. But just the fact that I think there is no excuse, doesn't stop people from making them.

All religion is about "people".

Umm....excuse me? You think I think this shit is 'ok'?

I don't. Nor do most Catholics I know. The only difference here is that you seem to think that this should lead them to turn their back on their church, and I think that's an unrealistic expectation given the nature of catholicism. Ordinary catholics are far more likely (in my view) to want to repair their church than leave it.

I haven't heard hordes of catholics queing up to excuse paedophilia. There are clearly some priests who've been complicit. At the top there seems to have been an institutional silence. You seem to want ordinary catholics to define their church through this scandal. Their not doing that does not render them complicit; it is not a sanction of that behaviour: knowing about it and not acting, that is complicity. Continuing to believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church is not.

Really? This shit has been going on for a long time, when were planning on getting started?

WTF are you talking about!?! I only made one statement:

I excuse no one for their actions. I do not define myself as Catholic. Let the Catholics on here respond. Good day.

edit: here is a great movie if any of you missed it. Along the same lines of the abusive environment of the Catholic Church, which btw controls the majority of the schools in Ireland.

The Magdalene Sisters

http://www.amazon.com/Magdalene-Sist.../dp/B00018D3L4

Who? The priests? The vatican? the congregations? individual catholics?

Well, hell, it's only in the last few decades we've begun to talk, as a society, about all sorts of things: paedophilia, domestic violence, rape. We all know this stuff goes on, why haven't we solved that yet?

I just think it's unrealistic to expect people to see what these priests have done, and the hierarchy's silence as defining an institution two thousand years in the making. They're inside it. They aren't going to see it like an outsider sees it.

Umm...I was responding to Jinx.

continuing to tithe (pay money) and attend masses at a church where it has been discovered, and admitted by the Pope that homosexual pedophilia is not uncommon, and swept under the rug by leadership IS sanctioning that behavior.

It would be akin to attending KKK meetings, but not attending the actual lynchings.

Yes, the individual catholics you just said were choosing to fix their church instead of discontinuing support of it.

Pedophilia is a human behaviour. Should we all stop being human because some choose to behave in this disgusting way?

I don't know any catholics who condone pedophilia. All the ones I know are appalled and are calling for answers.

I wonder what religion all the other pedophiles are? What makes anyone here think the catholic church has some exclusive responsibility for this problem? The whole of society has to deal with this.

Putting money in the plate is not condoning pedophilia. It's contributing to your local parish in order to help those who need help. Should that aid be withdrawn by good people, causing the needy to suffer more, just because some catholics have done the wrong thing? If you answer yes you probably need to consider your own values.

If the catholic church was the only game in town, you'd have half a point.

It's not.

It's unrealistic to expect someone brought up catholic to jump horses midstream if their fundamental beliefs are those of a catholic.

To understand the theology is important. Different churches have different tenets and to some people it would seem like going from christianity to muslim or budhism or hinduism if someone asked you to stop being a catholic and become C of E for example.

There are bad people involved in all churches and for that matter all organizations. Does this issue need to be addressed by the catholic church? Absolutely. It is being addressed right now.

Should people who believe the catholic church is their one true path to heaven be expected to all of a sudden change those beliefs because someone they've never met did something wrong? Personally I don't think so, but I suppose that might make sense to some people somehow.

Catholicism isnt like protestantism; you can't just choose another denomination. To a devout catholic, it is the one true Church. Not only is it the one true church; but it is the only route to God. Unlike in protestantism, in which, for the most part, the believer has a personal relationship with God, a catholic needs priestly intercession.

If they turn their back on their church, then they effectively turn their back on God. Without a priest to minister to them, they are denied the sacrament, absolution, and the last rites. Without these things, they cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

No matter what the individual, frail human beings involved in the church might do, the Church is still God's house and a priest is still necesary for their immortal souls.

Just clarify that point: for a devout Catholic, it really is the only show in town.

My Granddad was a catholic who left the church when he married a protestant lass. He died in terror, convinced that he was going to hell. He wasnt a bad man. He just hadn't had the sacrament for 50 years.

We all know there are no pedophiles involved in protestantism.

Just necrophiliacs.

Only the Catholic church has pedophiles? Its gotten me thinking
Why don't we hear about this type of abuse from/in other churches or religions?

We do. Other churches have been hit with similar accusations, although perhaps not so much. The problem with the CC is the celibacy rule.

Every time you have people in a position of authority over vulnerable other people, abuse happens.

I can't help equating this discussion with the "all Muslims are terrorists" opinion. NOT expressed in this thread of course.

How can people carry on being Muslim when some of their number are murderers? And specifically murderers of other Muslims, innocent bystanders, children, people at worship etc. Completely going against most of what Islam teaches.

How can Catholics stand by the Church when some in the field used their positions to fulfil perverse desires, and some in the hierarchy covered up for them? But then how could anyone stay true to the Catholic faith when priests were preaching IRA support from the pulpits back in the 70s and 80s. Sorry, you know this is my hobby horse. But is abuse worse than murder? Well, maybe. Because the victims have to live with it and the perpetrators are in a position of trust. But political murderers are back on the streets, sanctioned unofficially by the Church and officially released by the Government I live under.

There were Nazis given sanctuary by govts around the world because of the information they had on weaponry. SOME guilty people have always been sheltered by establishments to protect themselves or to gain information.

I don't think anything I'm saying is changing anyone's mind. It's just frustrating to me that someone can equate my parents to paid up members of the KKK. Nowhere in the Church's manifesto is that children should be molested. So the 'rents to pay their tithe. To me this is nothing like them signing up to a brutal, violent cult, determined to deny human status to a whole group of people.

Okay, we're glossing over the whole gay thing here.
Start on that and I'll be willing to express my extreme disapproval of the Catholic faith.
But kiddy fiddlers?
Please try not to think every Catholic is supportive.

I left the Catholic church years ago, before I'd heard of the molestation scandals.

It's just another instance in a long long long line of hypocrisy, in the name of religion. It would be laughable, if it weren't so deeply ingrained and evil.

No, the difference being that the catholic church used it's infrastructure to cover up abuse and allowed it to continue. They maintained a policy of secrecy and helped pedophiles come in contact with more victims, while other churches, like the JW's enacted policies about notifying legal authorities of crimes (not merely "sins") committed.

gotcha, Jinx. point taken.

I still wonder about the others though. I think there will be others to follow.
No matter how this is looked at the people involved should be punished.
Their belief system, IMO, has little to do with it.

Of course there are "men of the cloth" in other religions who are child molestors. Jinx' point, if I am reading correctly, is that the Catholic Church hid it instead of dealing with it (we are taught at a young age about guilt so I guess by that point a little more guilt was nothing.)

It's a bit more difficult to become a priest than it is to become Reverend Schmoe of Unity God of Church of Christ and Hallelujah Cookies: they got those monasteries and celibacies. Reverand Schmoe got ordained over the interwebz. You'd think the Catholic church would do more than take whoever they can get: another point being that in modern times men do not want to have to choose between having a wife and children and being a minister of god's word.

And I had the coolest priest at the elementary school/church I attended as a kid. He was great. As was Sister N, the principal of the school.

No, it's not condoned by all Catholics, but the policy of the church, the powers in that church, has always been to hide and deny. It's about power, it's not about god.

Catholic church - made up of people, some of whom are criminals, sinners, pedophiles, hypocrits, power-mongers.

Catholic religion - based on faith in some sort of Flying Spaghetti Monster immitator.

Two totally different concepts - I don't like either. :fsm:

I think the size of of the Church and its leaders lack of openness make it an easy target for journalists not to mention that anti-Catholicism will sell papers to both small-minded religious bigots and people with legitimate differences with Church policy.

Another problem is the RC Church lacks any real mechanism for bottom up change. They are going through "Parish Revitalization" in this diocese which is Bishop talk for closing churches and making it look like a local decision. I'd say tw's idea of churches as consultants is a fine one but completely misunderstands Catholicism.

Dana's Granddad's story gets right to the root of my problem with the Church. He could love a non-Catholic woman but his God could not. No just God could be party to that sort of death-bed fear mongering so how can the Church be a just God's representative? All this makes the huge assumption that there is a God that is somehow related to some human concept of god.

Hitchens: The Pope is not Above the Law

The other clergy members who stood by and let this happen with only a strongly worded letter are complete accessories, IMO.

The (apparently vast number of) parents who took a payout instead of pressing charges ain't looking so hot, either.

Maybe this will be the first Pope to quit or jump from the pulpit.

I highly doubt it. Why would he step down? He's freaking King of the Church. Lives in a palace. Waited on hand and foot. What does he care if the heathens criticize him?

I'm sure he consulted god before he protected child abusers, and therefore feels completely justified.

He just does that little hand cross in the air thingy, says "domma dis, domma dat, betcha i can beatcha at dominos" or some such latin sounding thing...and all is well again.

.