aggressive parents
 

I don't have kids, but I'll risk coming off as one of those people who criticize what he doesn't understand...

Tonight I was in a restaurant seated next to three children (all under 10, I'd say) and their parents.. Over the course of the 30-40 minutes I was there I saw both parents repeatedly smacking (not slapping...smacking) and violently grabbing the kids. One of the girls was giggling at a face her brother was making at her, and the mother smacked her and said, "Would you stop your giggling? Christ!"
I made eye contact with the mother that time and definitely gave her a "What the FUCK are you doing?" look... and she as much as told me (non-verbally) to mind my own business. So I did...(but what I really wanted to do was take her out back and grind her and her asshole husband's faces against a few rough bricks)

I've been seeing this kind of thing more and more lately... fathers grabbing their kids arms in ways that HAVE to leave bruises, kids looking up at their parents with tears and fear in their eyes... What the hell is some peoples' problem?? I'm a 25-year-old single guy, so having kids is the farthest thing from my mind...but when I see that I want to kidnap every single one of them, buy them an ice cream cone, and give them a hug.

Grinding faces on bricks and kidnapping... maybe I've been watching too much Dexter?

There are a lot of A hole parents and parents w/o parenting skills running about. All of us have been at the end of our tether at one point or other, but it's all how you handle it.

Not defending that kind of shit, but my kids can be exasperating at times. The times when they are exploring their autonomy and pushing the envelope of what is acceptable.

If and when you become a parent, remember that you want to be a different parent than those asshats.

Funny, all I see everywhere I go are permissive parents with shitty-behaved kids who need to be yelled at.

There's that too sure... but being too permissive won't leave the kid with fractured bones and shattered self-image.

I like your Bozzio quote btw, Flint

The two extremes are because spiked clubs became politically incorrect, therefore socially unacceptable.

It is often the same parents as thud85 describes. They don't have consistent expectations for behavior so the kids are confused and out of control. You see them laughing and supporting the kids awful behavior one time, but then when they're tired or grouchy the smacking starts.

This is true.

Proper discipline isn't being a hard ass, it's setting consistent expectations for your kids. Kids actually like to know what the rules are and generally want to obey them. They feel secure when they know where they stand. Sometimes they test the rules, and they actually want to be punished when they break them. It confirms to them that they understood the rule in the first place. The hard part for parents is always enforcing the rules consistently. It's upsetting and difficult for kids when they don't know what the rules are. When behavior is OK one day and not OK the next day. Parents must be consistent.

Glatt, you could well be discussing dog training! :D

Sometimes I Ithink that dog training videos should be shown to parents, maybe it would give them a clue.

It's not that different, when they're young.

That's sad. I already had two kids at 25. No, it's not sad that I had two kids at 25 - It's sad the parents were trying to be so controling over their kids. From the description, I kind of wonder if they were really their kids. Most kids will eventually submit to their parents physical abuse - unless they're simply used to it.

You're right though. They (the parents) were being assholes.

Kind of a funny story here...

Some time back I was watching my grandsons (ages 4 & 6). Well, I had to take my wheelchair bound mother to the store and I had the boys. I'm a multi-tasker so WTF I thought. Hopped in the car with the boys, drove to mom's, got them out, knocked on the door, opened it and all hell broke loose. Cat ran and hid, mom's face sunk and the boys commenced jumping up and down on her sofa and started a pillow fight. I'l like "Hi Mom! Wanna go to the store?"

So I helped her to the car (she can walk okay) and we went to the store. The boys really weren't too bad. They were pretty excited because #1: Grandpa was watching them and grandpa is cooler than a popsickle. #2: They got to see their great-grandma (even if she wasn't to excited about it) and #3: I gave them cake and ice cream for breakfast so they were pinging from a sugar high. They really weren't too bad at the store. I only got after them once and that was when they started beating on each other in the soda aisle. Other than that their behavior was normal for those two.

Long story short... It all worked out okay. Mom got her groceries, the boys got out and I was getting everything done early so I could have a nice relaxing evening.

Next day: Mom called and asked me what my point was in letting the boys "act out" the way they did. I asked what she meant and she explained they never minded me. I was totally confused then. The boys did everything I told them to do - everything. I asked her to expound and she stated they were running around, fighting & screaming. I told her she just wasn't used to little kids - especially brothers who are so close in age. Then I told her that they were pretty excited because grandpa was watching them and they got to go to the store with their great grandma too (I didn't tell her about the cake & ice cream). However, I did emphasize the point that it's a little tough to push someone around in a wheelchair and watch two little boys at the same time.

Mom... a sweet old lady, but a dedicated drama queen.

To me? Not appropriate behaviour for boys that age in a grocery store - or any public place apart from a playground.

I have to agree with Sundae, you don't get to pat yourself on the back for kids who follow your instructions when you don't really give them any instructions other than "eat your cake and ice cream." A 4- and 6-year-old are more than capable of understanding the rule that you don't jump on the couch.

But I suspect you already know this, you're just doing that sheepish doting grandparent thing. Because it has to be one or the other: either their behavior is completely acceptable, or "it's a little tough to push someone around in a wheelchair and watch two little boys at the same time." Can't really be both, you see what I'm saying?

It doesn't sound like ideal parenting or ideal restaurant behaviour, but since becoming a parent, I've learned to be a lot faster to apply the "walking a mile in their shoes" principle before making a judgement.

At least the kids weren't so scared of their parents that they didn't act up at all. Some badly abused kids fly under the radar because they're so scared they are "model children".

At least the parents were aware that a certain standard of behaviour is expected in restaurants

I don't know if you are male or female, Thud, but you openly admit to watching this family and giving the mother the stinkeye. Maybe that was interpreted as your meal being disrupted by the kids' behaviour rather than the parents' behaviour, so the admonishment increased?

Perhaps the kids were being physical with each other under the table or exhibited cues that only their parents can spot that they were about to be physical. Children are strong and wriggly and slippery. You sometimes have to grab them pretty damn hard if you are to prevent them doing something. It hasn't yet left a bruise when I've grabbed mine, but it sometimes feels like it should have.

Or perhaps the parents were violent assholes who should be reported.

Yeah...I've got to say, there are times when kids can drive you completely nuts. I have one boy who just never shuts up. If he hasn't got something to say (which is rare) he'll be either singing or making weird noises or tapping his hands or feet - or both. The other is the complete opposite. Even when you speak directly to him it's hard to get a word out. One is the result of the other I know, but still, the noisy one irritates the quiet one constantly. Even when I tell them they're gay because they can't stop touching each other they just laugh and think it's funny. (and it is a joke - unless one of them is gay - in which case, I have a real problem with the brother touching. lol) Anyway, what I'm saying is, kids can be almost intollerable even when they are giggling and carrying on, especially when that sort of behaviour is inappropriate such as in a restaurant.

On the flip side, I can't stand parents who don't discipline their kids at all either. I'm not sure which is worse from a completely impartial non emotional point of view.

I'm all for shooting them if they get out of hand.

I'm kidding. I kid.

I see that all the time... There is certainly a better way to resolve it then hitting. I don't care where we are... I'll find a time out spot if I have to… I’ve even been known to remove them from wherever we are, but hitting is not acceptable. Kids behave according to what they have been taught and what they see.
The thing is training a dog isn't that much different... both kids and dogs exhibit many of the same behaviors and respond likewise.
I am a big fan of a combination of Attachment Parenting and Logical Consequences. I have only spanked one… and it was because my daughter bit my son… she was about 2 and he was about 6 months… I needed her to understand the pain before I could tell her why inflicting it was wrong… I apologized to her and I told her she hurt brother and needed to apologize to him and then she had to sit in time out. We use time out a lot. I also have to remind myself often… is what they are doing age appropriate?
My friends on the other hand… most of them have unruly kids… it drives me crazy. I don’t keep my kids from hanging out with them… I think it is important for kids to learn how to deal with difficult personalities, but I continue to put them in time out even while my friends let their kids run crazy and they proceed to yell at them. Now I’ll admit… I am a far cry from a perfect parent… we joke with them that they can deal with “Nice Mama” or “Mean Mama” the choice is up to them…. Sometimes they really get under my skin and I know my reaction isn’t what it should be, but when I see how others act I feel a bit better about myself.

Purely theoretical thoughts here, as a non-parent:

Yep, a lot like puppy training - clear rules, consistent enforcement. And as Pooka mentioned, kids learn by copying their parents.

That said, some kids are just born weird. A cow orker of mine has a son who is ... problematic. Two parents, both conscientious at it, child is behaving like a classic psychopath. Recently their boy was at day-care. He has been a serial offender at physically stealing toys from smaller kids. He was seen last week stealing a toy from a babe (about 14 months) and holding his hand over the other kid's mouth so the carers wouldn't hear him wailing. Clever, shows he has theory of mind, but disturbing ... their boy is 18 months old!

Robert Hare, author of "Without conscience" and world expert on psychopaths, argues that while most psychopaths are "made" by childhood trauma and abuse, a fair number are born that way. It seems that emotion and empathy evolved as a way of engineering cooperation, but some people don't get the empathy thing working properly.

The case that started this thread doesn't sound like that, though. I think the problem there is that many people get into parenting either unintentionally, or without grasping just how much constant effort it takes. Half-assed parenting produces ill-behaved brats.

Plus, I suppose it goes without saying, a short chain and a lockable kennel.

No, but not giving them the opportunity to learn the rules of life isn't giving them a fair chance to be successful as a person.

Thank you. A Terry Bozzio quote that quotes Joseph Campbell--how cool is that? Thanks for noticing.

While I don't have kids, I've been around the critters for quite some time. My cousins are quite prolific (their kids will probably become parents in 3 or 4 years from now) and my brother is the proud father of a 14 months son.

I see a lot of people screaming at their kids at the beach, the mart, theater, etc... And every time, it is something like : "Keep doing that, and you'll get a spanking".

Well, after the twentieth time in as many minutes, the kid knows with certainty it'll never come. Hence the reasonning : "I can do whatever I want, I'll never be punished".

There's no need to even leave a bruise, just one spank that stings enough without being harmful, and that kid will learn that there are rules, that breaking them brings retaliation.

After that, you have to explain the why, quickly if the kid is young, a bit later if not.

Problem is that some parents do not seem to be equiped for the job. Unfortunately, the job of a parent is, as my mother puts it, the only one for which you are not asked qualifications.

I agree with your conclusion, but not with the reasoning.
I hear the same - with different threats - again and again and again.
But the solution is - be consistent!

You don't need to threaten violence. And certainly not deliver it.
I don't see why people think violence will always work. What? It doesn't in other parts of life, at best it diminishes and belittles people - why would you want to do that to your children?

But yeah - if you tell your child once that they will lose a toy, or not go McDonalds, or not get sweeties or whatever the bribe of the moment is... and then you say it again... and again... and again...
Nah. That's not going to work. That leads to children screaming and standing up and hitting and shouting, "Yes I will!! Yes I will!"


Now I know about discipline:
I say to Diz, "No. You are not going to jump up there. No. I always have to get you down. No."
then
"Go on then. But I'm not going to get you down."
then
"Come on. Come on down Babba. I'll get you."

Yeah. I'd be a crummy parent.
So I know it's harder to know the rules than stick to them.
But Diz doesn't understand me.
I am not messing with his cat-brain (might is right in a cat's world).
He'll never be too big for me NOT to manhandle.
And after all, he's not really set up to affect anyone else's life.

Because it's worked for 100,000 years, before Dr Spock.

If you squirted him with a water pistol he would. :haha:

Bwahahahahahahaha @Bruce

I'm sorry I didnt push my explanation further. I do not condone violence especially against kids, but if you issue a threat you have to be prepared to carry it to its conclusion.

If you prove to the kid that you are ready to call his bluff, then next time maybe he'll listen to you when you say that enough is enough.

That is all I was saying. Resorting systematically to violence is not only counterproductive but makes the child himself violent toward (or towards - I remember a thread about this) those that are feebler than him.

What do you mean by "violence"? What if you just quietly snip off a finger? That's not violent.

Yeah, but you have to do it right away, which limits the threats you can use. Giving them a swat on the butt is immediate... as is snipping off a finger.

but you can only snip off a finger 8 times

If I had kids they would have at least 12 fingers and 12 toes.

I threaten to kill my kids to death all the time. They think it's funny but they also get the message.
The little hippy school the kids used to go to had "Stop Rule". Pretty much the only rule that was enforced consistently. Almost religiously. Someone says "stop!" and the offending activity had to cease immediately. Conflict resolution to follow if necessary (endless talking about feelings and crap when everyone else is rocking the sand box). The ability to understand and follow stop rule was a prerequisite for admission, and each potential student had to get several days of hippie scrutiny at school under their belt before they were officially admitted, to make sure.
"Kill you to death" is just the updated version of stop rule.

But 100,000 years ago isn't today. Might is no longer right in a society when you don't have to physically fight to get ahead. If you bring children up to believe the one who gives the hardest wallop gets the best food, the best women and the best life, I don't think you're really preparing them for 21st century society. Or at least not polite society. FFS, I sound like Jane fucking Austen.
He bloody would too.
As it is I cuff him and hiss at him when he's out of line.

He learns nothing from my liberal moralising, it just makes me feel better when I say things like, "OW! That hurt! You bad boy!" Although it is mostly followed by, "You do that again you little monster, I'll whack you on the head with a shovel and bury you in the garden" rather than "I'm sure you didn't mean it, and I still love you."

As I say, that's the benefit of having cats rather than kids :)

If you believe force doesn't solve anything, it's because you don't hit hard enough.

:smashfrea

Ain't that the truth!

Each child responds to different levels of discipline within the same family. All kids are different. But the parents that are extremely permissive with their children's behavior in public is nauseating. No it is not ok to let your kids run around a nice eating establishment, that is what the ball pit at McDonald's is for, just watch out for those HIV needles.

Link

Remote controlled trap doors under every chair.

We all need a thread resurrection,
Just a little Classic intervention...


Seriously, my dad would unrepentantly shout out "Stuff a sock in it." Whenever we were out in public and some baby was crying.

My wife and I are in an expensive hotel in Ixtapa that was chosen, in part, because of their "no guests under 18" policy*. For the first two days we were here there was a young couple with a loud baby. We stopped eating in the restaurants of the hotel because of that**, and instead walk the five kilometers into town.

* I just looked on their website and don't see any mention of such policy. Maybe I was tricked.
** Plus the fact that margaritas are $12, and you can't have lunch for less than $50.

Seems like in Mexico, you should be able to have lunch for $5, not $50.

I guess the resorts aren't really part of Mexico.

There is a $45 don't get shot by a drug warrior fee.