Where would you Nuke?
 

Not to be morbid or anything here, and not to give anyone ideas, but...

I had an IM session with a Canadian friend of mine tonight. I asked, "If you were Osama or Saddam, and had a nuke, where would you nuke?"

I said Washington, DC, basically to take out the governmental center of the free world. She said the Hoover Dam, to take out power and water to Los Angeles and Las Vegas, and various other smaller cities.

I found this to be a very interesting approach, as it would very much so disrupt the economy, and "dis-hearten" America as well. Also, the fallout from the hit would make Las Vegas a "hot-spot" for several hundred years.

So think about it, where??? What are your thoughts?

Well the dam would be a suicide effort but with only one road leading to and across it, I'll wager they're sniffing for radiation night and day, and air and boat access would be detected damn quick.

(Recent news item under the radar: recently, people undergoing radiation therapy have been stopped and questioned by officials in the NYC subway. Sniffers have been installed on the streets as well.)

I wonder if a briefcase nuke would do enough damage to Hoover Dam. They say you could ram an airliner into it.

What if you sent something submerged at it? Set off a nuke _inside_ the dam, right on the turbines.

If I were ObL or Saddam, I'd nuke either a massive school (that would send a message damn quick) or just outside of Altanta GA. I say just outside, because you would want to just demolish the CDC building, not vaporizing it. Think of it--polio, ebola, yellow fever, and other virus samples would be released into the wild. Scary. :eek:

Hey 'Toad, got a cite/source on radiation sniffing in NYC?

Interesting. Very interesting. Sounds like someone knows something the rest of us don't.

Military targets. First stop, Whitman AFB near Kansas City...home of the B-2.

Can't go along with that one, Syc'.

"If we blew up Kansas the world might not hear about it for years" - Ernst Stavros Blofeld Diamonds are Forever

No, the question says one device, so it should be placed to elicit the most psychological terror.

To that end, attack a symbol (like on 9/11). If those guys had just wanted to kill as many people as possible, they could have pegged a few football stadiums on any weekend afternoon in the fall, or maybe even the Super Bowl (that can't happen now, of course).

Their modus operandi seems to be to finish the job they started. It would be exploded on Pennsylvania Avenue, halfway between the Capitol and the White House.

Source on the rads I can't remember; I'm reading so fast these days, trying to keep up. The sniffers I saw on a national news network. They were big units in cages, more oriented towards biological.

C'mon guys ... I really don't think that you can beat the PR value of a nuclear mushroom cloud dispersing over the already damaged Manhattan skyline.

NYC or nothin'.

I might pick Washington, DC as a secondary, with Chicago as a WAAAAY outside tertiary. The only true benefit of Chicago would be that it is representative of America's Heartland. (I continue to harbor a suspicion, totally unfounded, that the Sears Tower was the perfect target for Flight 93, although I understand that conventional wisdom had it heading for the White House or Capitol Building. Western PA is NOT on the way to DC. I looked at a map and everything.)

Although I do think Tom Clancy had something with nukin' the SuperBowl ...

For once, Philly folks should count their blessings at being the overlooked city.

According to the LA Times, the military is thinking about using tactical nukes, bunker busters, in Iraq. I've heard David Hackworth argue for it because the intense heat generated would incinerate any nasties. That would hopefully reduce the numbers of troops suffering from Gulf War 2 syndrome later on. From a purely military perspective he makes sense. The political fallout however...?

The problem is that Saddam's bunkers may be too hardened even for the regular bunker busters, which can delve like 10 feet into concrete before exploding. But the political fallout from this would be so immense, I doubt it's under any serious consideration.

Re: Where would you Nuke?
 

First, Saddam's history and strategic objectives have always been to avoid conflict with the US. The last thing Saddam wants is to attack the US. Such attack provides him nothing and is completely contradictory to his fundamental objectives in life. That is two strong reasons why the US is not a target of Saddam.

Second, I am posting this with a request that UT please delete the section encased in "***" after, say Monday evening. I have long asked this question and have a list I would prefer to keep silent about. Will only provide one example because there are many disasterous targets. I don't even want this example posted long.


***
(tw fantasy of one way to kill NYC deleted)
***


Please do not universally advertise this scenario. Instead maybe refer to it as a "tw's worst case NYC event". This and many other potential events have often bothered me long before 11 Sept.

Again, I request that UT remove the section between '***' on evening of 27 Jan 2003. This concept must be limited to discussion. No reason to advertise details.

That's right, tw, just tell everybody!
 

While you're at it, post excerpts from your al-Quada training manual on the internet (but just for a day).

How far away is the nearest FBI office from where you live, tw? They'll be there as quick as they can.

What is this, security through obscurity?

Tw, I really don't see what you're concerned about...you've said more than enough stuff on here already to make the FBI look at you funny.

Incidentally, the Philadelphia FBI field office is at 6th and Arch Sts. in Center City. The phone number is (215) 418-4000.

But before you call them on me, let me call my lawyer first. :)

Just edit your post whenever you start feeling paranoid.

But make sure no search engines archive it. And get everybody to clear their browser's cache. And web proxies, should people use them.

Etc...

Nah, I'm taking a snapshot of it, then I'm going to blow it up and hang it out on my balcony for everyone to see.

UT, maybe you should post this sign here on the Cellar:

http://msdelta.net/~sycamore/images/fbisign.gif

We're gonna need some new FBI guys
 

<img src="http://www.andgor.com/Gallery%20Pictures/Bruce-Willis-Die-Hard.gif">

Yeah, I know, said by another character. But I think it's funny. Sue me.

It absolutely amazes me how I have to spell everything out, in painful detail, for sycamore. He does not even know the obvious -- why I would not want those ideas remaining for the people who also have not a clue.

No problem if the FBI reads that post. They - or at least the ones who complain about top management - apparently understand this potential threat. But as so many government employees have repeatedly stated, George Jr's admistration has not even provided America's first responders with new tools to make a safer country. When did or would a missile defense system protect NY citizens from terrorism? When did creating another level of bureacracy ever make the American public safer? Even Hilary sees through this Fatherland Security nonsense. But not Sycamore.

I don't believe the Cellar to be a hotbed of murderous radicals. It is home to many who should understand how exposed we are. Once Cellar dwellers have read the concept, no reason to leave this idea posted for everyone else in the world.

Why do I have to post the obvious for Sycamore? What kind of person would first worry what the FBI's response might be? Is Sycamore's response a Freudian reaction to some deep seated paranoia?

The original point: we are far more vunerable than commonly understood. And yet terrorists are generally so naive as to, well ... one could not even give himself a hotfoot. Eventually even terrorists may discover the Cellar. But not before Monday evening.

So that Sycamore does not get so confused again - I am asking UT to remove the three paragraphs since they are only relevant to Cellar readers and need not remain to inspire others. Sycamore - was that so difficult to understand or need I make it simpler for you? Hmmm.... on second though, Sycamore also believes everything the current president says.

Tw, you sound like you might have a problem here. Perhaps I can help you.

Whew! Thank God for that! If I didn't have tw spelling everything out for me, I'd be in a world of trouble. Without Tw's guidance, I'd be writing relatively coherent posts that make sense. And admitting when I might be off-base. And not sounding like a bitter know-it-all that doesn't get it.

Painful detail, eh? In the real world, we call it "getting to the point," which you have proven here that you are not very good at.

I doubt that you're the first person to think of such a scenario involving NYC.

And you say you don't want this stuff remaining on the Cellar, yet you post it to a site that gets a ton of visitors, and seems to attract strange folks, like Cairo. And you ask for it to remain until Monday, when more visitors will see it.

So you see tw, even by leaving it up for a mere 2 days, you risk it being seen by people without a clue. And maybe one of those non-clueless types will pass it on to more non-clueless types. This could continue on and on, but I think even someone like you gets the point.

So, since things need to be spelled out for me in painful detail, kindly explain to me how I don't see through this "Fatherland Security nonsense"? I didn't realize that I didn't see through it! PLEASE TW!!! SAVE ME FROM MYSELF!!!

See above. Remember, there are plenty more visitors beyond Cellar Dwellars.


I'm not a fan of Freudian psychology, which you might have seen noted in one of Juju's threads.

The FBI mention was really more of a joke. You see, where I'm from, when someone talks ill of the government, we sometimes joke, "You better watch out! The FBI will be at your door!" As a matter of fact, this has happened in the 3 other cities in which I have lived. Maybe you're just of a different ilk, or maybe that's just above you. I think it's funny myself. To each his own.

Could you kindly explain, in incredible detail with support, how you are certain that terrorists are not already chillin on the Cellar? Thanks!

Could you kindly explain, in incredible detail with support, how you are certain that I believe everything President Bush says? Thanks!

Well, this was certainly an interesting read! It leaves me asking one question in the end:

Tw, what is wrong with you?

Seriously man, what on earth is wrong with you? Though I only have an undergraduate degree in the field, I think that you may have some deep-rooted psychological issues that need therapy and medical treatment. My own suspicions are delusions of grandeur or some type of dissociative disorder, but only a professional can determine for certain.

I believe that you have alluded to living in Montco, so here is the county's mental health services page. I think these people can point you in the right direction. If you live elsewhere, let me know, and I'll try to help you with that particular county's mental health setup.

And if you ever need someone to listen, just let me know.

Interesting ... all this time and I hadn't seen that page.

What's also interesting is that there are a some inaccuracies on the page and on pages linked to it. (I'll have to talk to the folks at the office of mental health about that). They've totally left off the crisis hotline number for the county. In fact, our hospital doesn't even appear on the Health and Human Services list of hospitals ... And some of the outpatient center information isn't quite right.

(And I'll bet you all thought I was going to go into some detail regarding what's up with TW. That's his business. If he wants to have bits of his post deleted, that's up to him. It's not like that information is secret or ever-before unthought of. Actually, I thought it was a reasonably good analysis of that particuluarly nasty possibility.)

wolf: What's also interesting is that there are a some inaccuracies on the page and on pages linked to it.

Holy fuck! Inaccuracies! On the Cellar no less! You must be shitting me!

I just might have to cancel my subscription.

It's okay, NBN, the Cellar is just fine. Your worldview remains intact at this time. Take a few deep breaths, drink a nice big glass of water, follow it with a coupla shots of tequila. You'll be all right.

The Montgomery County Office of Mental Health .... THAT'S fucked up.

Trust me, I KNOW. ;)

Inaccuracies? Yipes! That could make a bad situation even worse.

Okay then. Tw, if you need that crisis number, or any other pertinent number, you know who to ask.

Terrorists are going to read my posts and steal my ideas! Give me a break..

Really -- it's been over a year since the terrorist attack. Must we still cower in fear and jump at shadows? Tw, I think the culture of fear has you in it's grips. Turn off the tv and step away.

Very well-thought out idea, though. I'd love to hear the rest of them.

For the record, I thought tw's idea was very interesting. I was initially commenting on his desire to remove the information he posted (which is his right, of course).

You have missed the point. Most cited potential terrorist targets are tepid, sanitized, or often not extremely danagerous. For example, cited is Sarin or VX in the subways. Sounds disasterous. But is not all that danagerous. Dangerous ideas are simply avoided for obvious reasons. That was my point. There are far more dangerous targets that terrorists would seek - if they only had enough intelligence to find those targets.

Terrorists are not worth getting in a huff worrying over - as long as we don't make it easy for them and as long as we don't inspire intelligent people to be terrorists. Let them think bombing the Golden Gate Bridge or Sarin gas attack would be so destructive. In the meantime many really destructive ideas are not even told to the public.

The point: if terrorists were such a threat, then terrorists would have been doing far more damage and attacking more often. Provided is a temporary example of what terrorists would really do if they were such a threat. Demonstrated is that terrorists really are not the big threat so hyped by a certain American president - who even hypes fear about six mythical terrorists crossing from Canada to NY State. I am not about to provide a list of potential targets. I am demonstrating why terrorism is really only criminal activity - which is how we should view it.

Demonstrated is how one without fanatical objectives could easily identify truly destructive targets. But terrorists just are not that smart - as long as we don't encourage moderates - the smart people - to become terrorists. Want to see dangerous terrorism? What would recruit moderates faster than an American government occupation for years of an Islamic country. An American government trying to force American ideas down the throat of people who neither want them nor earned them. An American government stealing Arab oil.

We currently have so little to fear from terrorists. But we have so much to fear if they finally get smart. One example is enough to demonstrate the point. There is no reason to cite any more exmples and no reason to leave this example posted too long.

Of course there's a reason -- it's interesting and it promotes discussion. If it's deleted, those who haven't read the thread yet won't know what we're talking about, and won't be able to contribute to the discussion.

Besides, it's not like you're the only person to have ever thought of this.

I deleted the bit, because I would never remember to do it later.

I heard somewhere that all the Wal-Marts and K-Marts in the Middle East are being torn down and revamped... as Targets. :D

Where *I* would nuke
 

NOWHERE!

The truth is: I have only one nuclear weapon. My enemies most likely know that. If I use it, not only do I leave myself open to retaliation, I now no longer HAVE that weapon.

I personally believe that I would get much more terror (and concessions, natch) from a nuke sitting in an unspecified location. Maybe Washington DC, maybe London, maybe under the Eiffel Tower... one would never know for sure...

And any terrorists reading this can feel free to quote me and use the idea. NYEH!

Brian

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd have to hit the west coast, one of the major cities other than LA. 'Cause of the jet stream, ever watched national weather? Well, raidiation is effected by wind currents. Hit NY and the radiation would largely go over the ocean, hit LA and it spreads over the US. Depending on yield and type of nuke. That's what 'Dirty' nukes do best, spread radiation. That's also the most likely nuclear threat. In the most likely scenario. Lot's of people are already expierienced at smuggling things into the country around those parts...

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Sleep well all.

Hey!!! Leave Pugetropolis out of this!

-

My nuke would be stripped and the core reprocessed into fuel to power the seaside resort/casino. No body hurt, and my populace and I are rolling in cash.

I would make an excellent president for life! My country would be fun...

It's cheaper to eliminate the regulators and inspectors rather than let them require safety equipment in your nuclear power plant.

In my country of Miketopia, I have inspectors from the UN present so there is no misunderstanding of what I'm doing. Safety first! I want my neighbors to feel safe about what I'm doing.

In Miketopia I have one monitored breeder reactor to reprocess and create fuel for my other reators, all helium-cooled pebble-fuel reactors.

Your neighbors here in the Anglican Republic of Hubristan have never bought into all that nonproliferation nonsense.

All of our domestic electricity needs are furnished by a couple dozen decommissioned sodium-cooled submarine reactors that we got for an excellent price from a former admiral in the ex-Soviet navy back in '92. We daisy-chained them together and ran a big copper cable into the "reactor containment vessel"; aka "the big shed out behind the Sycamorian embassy."

It seems to be working out well so far, except for the luminescent giant bats, and a spot of trouble a busload of tourists from Warchylvania had with the three-headed goatboy...

So, ummm... how's things working out with that giant, beryllium-coated "peace sphere" that we sent you? Have you found a place to put it yet?

Mmm! Wha-?

Sorry! Just enjoying my peace sphere. It keeps me so toasty warm!

I read this the other day. Today it makes me laugh again. I liked this one.:D

Re: Re: Where would you Nuke?
 

OK, this was stupid. Post something for a day, I missed it. I read this part, the enclosed was deleted, earlier this week but was too busy at work to reply.

Anyway, I think I got the gist from the link someone posted to the flooding of the NY Subway Station at WTC after 9/11.

If that is what it was, or anything close to it, DUH. That's been an obvious attack point for years. To think your post was controversial is dumb. Believe me, the terrorists have "cased the joint", not just NY, but the US.

And then for everyone to argue about it...

This thread asked a simple question. Go back and read it. No turning your nuke into to reactor for cheap power for a beach resort, or "I'd keep it to intimidate my neighbor countries", or "Post this for 2 days ONLY".

Answer the question... The terrorists are truly too stupid, and do need your help to find a target... Yep.... DUH!!!!!

This question was asked to get YOUR take on things, not to start hiding posts, starting disagreements, or so on... I thought my Canadian friend's view was unique, one I hadn't thought of, that's why I asked the question.

MW:mad: :mad:

MW: You sound tired, tense, and frustarated. Would you like to spend a complimentary weekend in the Miketopia Resort?

Hubristan vs Miketopia
 

Where do our nation-states come down on this?

After realizing that nobody wanted anything but a good time in privately armed Griffbeeria, I've decided to UPS my nuke to the Kurds.

Re: Re: Re: Where would you Nuke?
 

Dammit, mw, don't you know there are terrorists who read the cellar?!? Now the secret's out! Nice fucking job. If people die, the blood is on your hands. :)

Women in the church? I'll have to ask Cardinal Susan about that...

Meanwhile, Miketopia is in talks with Griffbeeria about hop shipments.

--

Oh yeah somewhat on topic: "Mars Attacks", Gramma in retirement home, "They blew up Congress!!! Ha, ha, ha!"

I will be dropping product from here. As you can see delivery will be a cinch but timing is crucial. The catapult is loaded as soon as I see some love in my e-gold account we're in business.

That's hysterical! I just pulled hops out of my ... out of thin air! There's water-ice on that there moon. Miketopia is makin' sno-cones.

Ooh. There's a thought: mis-firing catapults launching metals at earth at several thousand meters per second.

I must credit Heinlin. And yes I did make my nuke redundant by perching above earths gravity well.

That explains why visitors wind up glowing at night for a week after visiting...you rotten so-and-so.