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ZenGum 04-18-2013 12:34 AM

Explosion in Texas
 
I'm sure you've already heard, but ...

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...o-texas/64337/

A fertilizer plant went up in West, Texas with the media speculating about 60 to 100 "casualties", who may be dead or injured depending on your preferred news service.

Given that it was a fertilizer plant, it was *probably* ammonium nitrate, and this was quite likely a non-malicious industrial accident.

Aliantha 04-18-2013 12:45 AM

What a shitty thing to happen.

piercehawkeye45 04-18-2013 08:19 AM

There is a video of the explosion near the bottom of the page. Crazy.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...o-texas/64337/

glatt 04-18-2013 08:25 AM

That's a big explosion.

orthodoc 04-18-2013 11:25 AM

What a mess. Horrible for everyone there. For the company to have claimed that their 'worst-case scenario' would be a 10-minute ammonia leak is ludicrous. They were fined only $2300 in 2006 for not having a risk management plan meeting federal standards.

Unfortunately the process for developing federal standards and exposure limits is mandated to include industry input, so the fox gets a say in how the fence around the henhouse is built. Congress voted in that requirement. It's yet another reason to adopt Warren Buffett's recommendations for Congress and get rid of career politicians.

morethanpretty 04-18-2013 10:09 PM

A lot of people in my group therapy have family or know people in that area. It is very scary.

tw 04-18-2013 11:52 PM

Nature of this explosion is interesting. Its force was so great as to create a cloud similar to a tactical nuclear weapon (ie a nuclear artillery shell). Did most energy go upward?

Well, a nearby apartment building only had its outside walls and roof removed. IOW it could have been much worse had energy not been channeled upward.

How much energy? Well, authorities are being very careful to not release information. Maybe an entire fire company, that was attacking that fire, may have disappeared. Not just killed. There may be no remaining bodies.

Also curious are what some residents said. Pressure felt in their ears was so great that they got into cars and drove away. And were about 1 mile away when the plant exploded. Why would nearby air pressure be that large for that long before an explosion? Indeed a curious report.

Fire may have started in one of many tanker trucks containing adrogenous ammonium hydroxide. Am not familiar with that material. Do not know if it is combustible. Or even if it becomes explosive when exposed to water. Have never see its safety datasheet. But suspect the column that says how fast to run says, "As fast as possible".

A truck fire somehow got into the plant or storage towers. But again, few hard facts are provided. So everything here only speculates as to how destructive that explosion was - and why.

Also curious is the date of Waco and Oklahoma City. Causing some to speculate about terrorism as revenge for Waco - that also inspired Oklahoma City. Doubtful. But currently we only have speculations.

xoxoxoBruce 04-19-2013 01:22 AM

Here's a very good article about Ammonium nitrate.

It tells how safe the stuff really is, compared to explosives.

It also explains how one of the byproducts of an Ammonium nitrate fire is oxygen. Thats why when a big pile of it burns, some of it can melt forming a closed container, where the fire supplying it's own oxygen won't smother, and builds up tremendous pressure until it detonates.

It also explains why this was a detonation, and not an explosion.

edit, sorry, it was this article that explained the explode vs detonate thing.

glatt 04-19-2013 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 861487)
Also curious is the date of Waco and Oklahoma City. Causing some to speculate about terrorism as revenge for Waco - that also inspired Oklahoma City. Doubtful.

Human beings are hard wired to see patterns. It helps us in most instances, but sometimes, it hurts us.

infinite monkey 04-19-2013 07:30 AM

It's safe. Like (cough...hexavalent) Chromium!

Better living through chemicals!

Gravdigr 04-19-2013 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 861487)
...containing adrogenous ammonium hydroxide...

Anhydrous? Prolly.

:)

Lamplighter 04-21-2013 06:56 AM

This short video caught reality for one kid...
Fortunately, they stayed in their car.


richlevy 04-21-2013 07:19 AM

There has been some anecdotal evidence already that the West explosion is causing a review of local zoning. Zoning is at the local level, where politicians are more answerable to their constituents. While a lot of people complain about NIMBY (not in my backyard), the truth is that there are some things that should be kept far away from residential areas.

One thing that the 'pro-business' wing of the Republican party never seems to get is that businesses never seem to have to pay the full cost of their actions. From the Exxon Valdez spill to the owners of the West plant, victims will never be made whole. And when trial lawyers make the attempt, Congress tries to set limits.

This is why regulation is needed, because the relationship between consequences and risks has become unbalanced. From a balance sheet perspective, the savings will always trump the risk to others, since the business will never fully be made to feel the consequences.

My exposure to this goes back to 1984 and the Haunted Castle fire. I remember one fire or police official lamenting that because it was a corporation, there was noone to put in jail.

Quote:

The Haunted Castle at Six Flags Great Adventure was a haunted house attraction at Six Flags Great Adventure amusement park in Jackson Township, New Jersey. On May 11, 1984, eight teenage visitors were trapped and killed when the structure was destroyed by fire. Six Flags Great Adventure and its parent company Six Flags were indicted for aggravated manslaughter, accused of recklessly causing the deaths by taking inadequate precautions against a fire. In the trial, the prosecution argued that repeated warnings by safety consultants to install sprinklers or smoke alarms had been ignored. The defendants denied any culpability, and contended that the fire was arson and that no precautions would have saved lives. The trial jury found the defendants not guilty.

ZenGum 04-21-2013 08:13 AM

I'm still waiting for facts, but I have a similar view forming.

However, I've heard that the plant was there first, and the school and nursing home were built later. Who made/allowed those decisions? Or did the plant change it's practices and become more dangerous.

In general, you're right - corporations pursue the line of greatest profit, and managers on annual bonuses have incentives to gamble with public safety. Add in the Texan love of "self-regulation", and you get this.

tw 04-21-2013 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenGum (Post 861846)
... corporations pursue the line of greatest profit, and managers on annual bonuses have incentives to gamble with public safety.

Initial reports suggest that attitude did not exist. This facility had no serious safety problems.

However this facility was built in 1962. Grandfathering meant it did not need many safety solutions currently required in newer facilities.

Another question. 540,000 tons of ammonia nitrate were in that facility. At what point is so much in one place too much?

richlevy 04-21-2013 09:42 PM

Ammonal nitrate is half of the ingredient to make ammonal explosives. These were used in WWI in large quantities with devastating results.

Quote:

From early 1916, the British Army employed ammonal for their mines during World War I, starting with the Hawthorn Ridge mine during the Battle of the Somme. Three of the mines used at the Battle of Messines, which were exploded at the start of the Third Battle of Ypres (a.k.a. Battle of Passchendaele), contained 30,000 lbs (over 13.6 metric tons) of ammonal. A fourth contained 20,000 lbs (over 9 metric tons). The British Army detonated 19 ammonal mines under the German lines, killing 10,000 in the deadliest non-nuclear man-made explosion in history.
Photo of aftermath (NSFW)

Many of the German troops at the battle of Messines were in trenches and were killed by the shockwave travelling through the earth.

While these were prepared explosives combining Ammonium Nitrate with powdered aluminum, it was still 50,000 lbs compared to the massive amount of pure Ammonium Nitrate in the facility.

ZenGum 04-21-2013 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 861908)
Initial reports suggest that attitude did not exist. This facility had no serious safety problems.

However this facility was built in 1962. Grandfathering meant it did not need many safety solutions currently required in newer facilities.

Another question. 540,000 tons of ammonia nitrate were in that facility. At what point is so much in one place too much?

Well, we must be seeing different "initial reports", then.

I've only seen numbers like 20 tons, not 540,000. Mind you, I'm a tad suspicious of the 20 tons figure, because while AN is explosive, that was a bloody big bang for 20 tons. But 540,000? Would that even fit?

And I have seen several sources reporting a lax attitude to safety, not just within the facility, but in Texas authorities. They had only very occasional inspections, trivial fines (one mentioned $30!), and neglected instructions to develop proper risk assessments and ignored instructions to install firewalls, sprinklers, and alarms.

elSicomoro 04-21-2013 10:39 PM

Quote:

Fertilizer plants and depots must report to the DHS when they hold 400 pounds or more of the substance. Filings this year with the Texas Department of State Health Services, which weren't shared with DHS, show the plant had 270 tons of it on hand last year.
story

Texas seems like such a dichotomy to me.

richlevy 04-23-2013 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sycamore (Post 861940)
story

Texas seems like such a dichotomy to me.

If by dichotomy you mean schizophrenic, then yes.

xoxoxoBruce 04-23-2013 10:22 PM

On April 16, 1947, a ship loaded with ammonium nitrate docked at the Port of Texas City erupted in flames, causing a massive explosion that killed approximately 576 people. 2,300 tons of the ammonium nitrate detonated, flattening 1,000 buildings in the city. All of the city's firefighting equipment was destroyed in the blast and 26 firemen were killed. A second ship at the port, also carrying 961 tons of ammonium nitrate and 1,800 tons of sulfur ammonium nitrate, caught fire in the blast and exploded 16 hours later.

Belgium, when they tried to disaggregate a pile of 150 tonnes of ammonium nitrate with industrial explosives ended tragically on April 29, 1942: 189 people were killed, 900 wounded.

France, The cargo ship Ocean Liberty was loaded with 3300 tonnes of ammonium nitrate and various inflammable products when it caught fire at 12:30 July 28, 1947. The explosion caused 29 deaths and serious damage to the port of Brest.

US, on November 29, 1988, at 4:07 am two trailers containing approximately 50,000 lb (23,000 kg) of ammonium nitrate exploded at a construction site located in Kansas City, Missouri. The result of the explosions were the deaths of six firemen from the Kansas City Fire Department. The blasts created two craters, each approximately 100 feet wide and 8 feet deep. The explosions also shattered windows within a 10-mile area and could be heard 40 miles away.

The list goes on and on but none of these disasters had anywhere near the 540,000 tons in West.

tw 04-24-2013 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 862305)
The list goes on and on but none of these disasters had anywhere near the 540,000 tons in West.

I'm not entirely sure of that number. It may have been 540,000 pounds. I'm waiting for a better report.

BigV 04-25-2013 05:07 PM

yes, pounds.

still, 270 tons is one hell of a lot of boom.

Lamplighter 04-25-2013 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richlevy (Post 862286)
If by dichotomy you mean schizophrenic, then yes.

Yes, but that's only the half of it.

ZenGum 04-28-2013 07:58 AM

http://www.propublica.org/article/wh...e-regulators?1

This is a pretty good summary of what is known.

tw 04-29-2013 01:51 PM

Industries get the regulations they deserve. Autos even have government regulations stamped into glass. Because that industry refused to implement safety glass until Senators discovered so much contempt and required it - by law.

Some industries are so responsible as to not have piles of regulations. For example, detergents once included a chemical called phthalate (if I remember the name). This was thought to be harmless until studies showed it was appearing inside and remaining inside human bodies. So the entire industry stopped using that chemical. Without any regulation. And without any reason for it to appear in the press.

We know the banking and investment industry is extremely corrupt. Because they think the purpose of business is a profit. Because they and the mafia believe in the same concept. So the financial industry cannot be over regulated. You cannot tell that to so many who only learn from political hacks. Who foolishly preach deregulation everywhere because their wacko leaders (ie Rush Limbaugh) have contempt for human life. An informed and moderate human understands why some industries (ie computers) need so little regulation. And why other industries (ie Wall Street) cannot be regulated enough.

Demonstrated by this event is why the agricultural industry has earned heavier regulations. It is not just fertilizer plants. Grain elevators may also demonstrate the same contempt for human life.

Also problematic are the so many towns people who had no idea that a school adjacent to that plant must be good. Same contempt is why people walked out onto a pier after observing the massive crack that showed the pier was collapsing into the Delaware River.

Only wackos believe we have too much regulation. Industries get the regulations they deserve. West TX demonstrates where we need more regulations - unfortunately. Because too many have contempt for human life - even if the deaths were only due to ignorance.


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