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Undertoad 09-02-2014 05:18 PM
Rotherham
 
:( very sad very terrible

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/02/wo...-of-girls.html

Aliantha 09-02-2014 05:33 PM
Speachless. Shocking.

DanaC 09-02-2014 05:35 PM
Truly appalling. This is a story that has implications way beyond just Rochdale.

The way those girls were treated by the police, social workers and others who should have protected them. The utter and abject failure of the child protection agencies. The whole thing was a terrible mess.

What those men did to the girls was shameful. That they were facilitated in that by authorities who could have saved them and brought justice but who chose to do nothing is a national disgrace.

They were children. Vulnerable children and the police basically considered them prostitutes complicit or even responsible for their own abuse. They were looked down on. the people who abused them were allowed to continue unchecked because of misguided notions of cultural sensitivity and an unwillingness to see the girls as the vulnerable victims that they were.

Added to the wave of revelations about abuse and cover ups in some of our key institutions (the BBC, care homes, hospitals and seemingly even members of parliament) it is clear that we have been failing children for a long time.

glatt 09-02-2014 05:39 PM
"at least 1,400 children"

Words fail me.

DanaC 09-02-2014 05:55 PM
At least 1400 children and in a small northern town. 0.5 percent of the whole population. Much bigger percentage of the town's children.

This has been bubbling away for quite a while now. That some of the people involved are still in their jobs is fucking disgusting.

You know - I can understand, having spent some time as a councillor, and in particular working with the Children's and Young People's directorate for that council that there is often a sene of unease when faced with something potentially incendiary as far as race is concerned. Indeed, we had a much smaller flurry of cases like this that came up whilst I was a councillor. And I remember as we started getting reports aout it there was real sense that this could play into the hands of the BNP and other racist parties. But that didn't stop us getting those girls into a safe place and it didn't stop the local police from arresting the men concerned and pressing charges.

Rotheram/Rochdale has been a centre of racial tensions for quite a few years - so I can imagine how worried people might have been that this was going to spark a lot of trouble. I cannot get my head around how that stopped them doing the right thing. The answer to the racist accusation that muslim men are abusers is to point out that some white men also abuse not to try and deny that some asian men do. And it is very clear and has been for a number of years that whilst the number of men abusing girls and children is probably no more for one than the other, they tend to follow very distinct patterns in how that abuse is carried out. It is a pattern. And denying it, covering it up,. looking the other way is not being culturally sensitive it is a shameful dereliction of duty.

And as for the police. Their utter contempt for these girls still baffles me. May of the girls were from deprived or troubled families, lot of them in carehomes. That coloured the police view of them as members of an underclass - not like nice girls. These they saw as slags, whores, street scum.

I could fucking weep.

Gravdigr 09-02-2014 06:09 PM
Yep. People suck. Welcome to the world.

Undertoad 09-02-2014 06:09 PM
Quote:
looking the other way is not being culturally sensitive it is a shameful dereliction of duty
Precisely.

A lot of people are going to say it's political correctness gone mad, but if that was the case, there would be a lot more towns reporting in. Racial tension is everywhere, P.C. is everywhere. This was something local, something broken.

DanaC 09-02-2014 06:12 PM
There's also a deeper problem here of course in the way girls and women are viewed in our society when it comes to rape and sexual abuse. Something which is not just a problem in the Uk but much, much wider.

A couple of years ago there was a a case went to court of a man in his 40s charged with sexual activity with a 13 year old girl. Both the prosecuting lawyer and the judge characterised that girl as 'predatory'. The judge in his summing up said that the man had been 'egged on' by her and coudn't help himself. That she had behaved in a 'predatory' way. The man got a two year sentence.

The whole idea of the 'lolita' effect is alive and well in western culture. As is the notion that women and girls have suspect sexuality and boys and men no control over their sexual urges. recent cases on college campuses in the US and university campuses in the Uk show very clearly that girls and women who say they have been raped are immediately suspected of lying. The attitude seems to be that crying rape is a common thing.

Victim blaming of girls and women is rampant. from the coverage of a girl gang-raped by college football players which focused almost exclusively on the tragic damage to the boys' career whilst twitter erupted in disdain for their victim, to the #JadaPose twitter meme in which users ridiculed the 16 year old victim of a vicious gang rape who was raped whilst passed out at a party - with the video of it posted by her rapists showing them laughing as they inserted objects into her.

The way the police in rotherham viewed the girls who were groomed and systematically raped and abused by those men is not isolated. The idea that they were asking for it - that they were sexual beings and used accordingly pervades even our progressive western culture.

We are not so far away from India, where a leading politician claimed that rape is 'sometimes right, sometimes wrong' that boys 'make mistakes' and girls should not wear short skirts.

DanaC 09-02-2014 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 908850)
Precisely.

A lot of people are going to say it's political correctness gone mad, but if that was the case, there would be a lot more towns reporting in. Racial tension is everywhere, P.C. is everywhere. This was something local, something broken.
Absolutely. I think there was a lot of politics involved in this. And corruption. And people more concerned with protecting themselves from political fallout than in protecting children from abuse.

But there was also a seriously warped view of who those girls were and that is a much wider problem. Not just girls but children, and in particular poor and troubled children. We can see that same thing in the way historic cases of abuse are now coming up for children's homes and what appears to have been some very powerful men (including at least one MP) abusing those children with impunity and then strong arming the police not to investigate. Even without the strong arm tactics to stop police investigations it seems that several youngsters who tried to report abuse were basically ignored because they weren't believed and they weren't believed because they were troubled young lads in a children's home making accusations against pillars of the community.

Poor and ignored.

There is a class element as well as a gender element to much of this. I think poverty in the Uk has similar implications as race in the US in how people are viewed and treated. The police, politicians and care workers were from a different class to most of the victims and that warped their view of them.

DanaC 09-03-2014 04:13 AM
One of the most worrying aspects of the Rotherham cases and of the other child abuse scandals now coming to light is what appears to be systemic tendency to cover up abuse at the highest levels.

Quote:
A Home Office official who investigated the sexual exploitation of children in Rotherham accused the council of being involved in the unauthorised removal of information from her office.

Her report in 2002 suggested there were then more than 270 victims of the scandal, which was finally exposed last week with revelations that at least 1,400 children were abused from 1997 to 2013.

She told Panorama that she had sent her report to both the council and the Home Office on a Friday, but when she returned on Monday she found her office had been raided.

"They'd gained access to the office and taken my data, so out of the number of filing cabinets, there was one drawer emptied and it was emptied of my data. It had to be an employee of the council," she said.

The Home Office researcher, who was not named by Panorama, also said she had been accused of being insensitive when she told one official that most of the perpetrators were from Rotherham's Pakistani community.

A female colleague talked to her about the incident. "She said you must never refer to that again – you must never refer to Asian men.

"And her other response was to book me on a two-day ethnicity and diversity course to raise my awareness of ethnic issues."
The Home Office researcher said that at one point the council tried to get her sacked and the report was never published.

A draft of the report severely criticised agencies working to tackle the child exploitation in the area, including "alleged indifference towards, and ignorance of, child sexual exploitation on the part of senior managers".

It said: "Responsibility was continuously placed on young people's shoulders rather than with the suspected abusers."

She met the victims at a youth organisation called Risky Business. "The workers in that project were the only people that those young people trusted, that they were telling the complete story to," she said.

"And some of the stories that I heard very early on were just so graphic that I don't think I will ever forget them.

"I was subjected to the most intense personal hostility – there were threats made from a range of sources. I've never seen back-covering like it and I still feel extremely angry about that."
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...claim-panorama

Quote:
A former cabinet minister has said there "may well have been" a political cover-up of child sex abuse in the 1980s.

Lord Tebbit told the Andrew Marr Show the culture at the time was to protect "the establishment" rather than delving "too far" into such claims.

His comments come after it emerged that the Home Office could not locate 114 potentially relevant files.

Current MP Keith Vaz said files had been lost "on an industrial scale".

The government has rejected calls for an over-arching public inquiry into the various allegations of child abuse from that era.

However, a new review, to be carried out by a senior legal figure from outside Whitehall, will look into a Home Office review last year of any information it received in the 1980s and 1990s about organised child sex abuse.

Home Secretary Theresa May will make a statement on the issue to the House of Commons on Monday.

'View was wrong'

Lord Tebbit, who served in various ministerial roles under Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s, said at the time people had an "almost unconscious" tendency to protect "the system".

"And if a few things had gone wrong here and there that it was more important to protect the system than to delve too far into them," he said.

"That view was wrong."

Lord Tebbit said he hoped the latest review would report back "fairly quickly" so the government could decide what to do next.

-snip-

The Home Office's 2013 review found 527 potentially relevant files which it had kept, but a further 114 were missing, destroyed or "not found".

Mr Vaz, chair of the Home Affairs Committee, said this represented loss of files "on an industrial scale" and it was "a huge surprise" that so much potential evidence had gone missing.

Among the files found, there were 13 pieces of information about alleged child abuse - nine of which were already known or had been reported to the police, including four cases involving Home Office staff, the Home Office's top civil servant Mark Sedwill said in a letter to Mr Vaz.

The four other items, which had not been previously disclosed, "have now been" passed to police, Mr Sedwill said - although a Home Office spokeswoman said "now" meant during the 2013 review, as opposed to at the time the allegations were received.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28182373

DanaC 09-03-2014 04:14 AM
Quote:
The MP who passed a dossier of paedophile allegations to the Home Office in the 1980s told his family the details were "explosive".

Geoffrey Dickens, who died in 1995, said it would "blow the lid off" the lives of powerful and famous child abusers, his son has told the BBC.

Barry Dickens said he would have been "hugely angered" that the allegations had not been properly investigated.

Labour is demanding a fresh inquiry into the missing dossier.

It comes after one of the party's MPs called for the then Home Secretary Leon Brittan to make public what he knew about paedophiles operating "in and around" Westminster in the 1980s.
Geoffrey Dickens, a long-standing campaigner against child abuse, passed the dossier of allegations to Lord Brittan, who has said he passed it on to his officials and raised concerns about some of the allegations with the director of public prosecutions.

His son Barry Dickens told the BBC's Matt Prodger: "I would like Lord Brittan to name the very next person he handed it on to.

"And where did it end up? There must have been a person who was the last to handle it.

"My father thought that the dossier at the time was the most powerful thing that had ever been produced, with the names that were involved and the power that they had."
He said the MP would have would have been "hugely angered, disappointed and frustrated" that the allegations had not been properly investigated.

The Home Office said that a search for the dossier in 2013 had found a letter from Lord Brittan to Geoffrey Dickens which said that the allegations had been acted on.

The review concluded that the "credible" elements of the dossier which had "realistic potential" for further investigation were passed to prosecutors and the police while other elements were either "not retained or destroyed".

"It just seems so suspicious that something so important could just go missing," Barry Dickens said.
Mr Dickens said he did not know the details of what was in the dossier but "it was talked about in the family, discussions now and then, sort of 'Wait and see what happens - this is going to blow everything apart. These people won't know what hit them'."

Around the time that the dossier was handed in, Mr Dickens said the MP's London flat and his constituency home were both broken into and ransacked within the same week, but that "nothing was taken".

"They weren't burglaries," he added. "They were break-ins for a reason. We can only presume they were after something that dad had that they wanted."


-snip-

The Metropolitan Police's Operation Fernbridge is investigating allegations of child sexual abuse in the late 1970s and 1980s at the former Elm Guest House in Barnes, the scene of alleged parties involving MPs and other members of the establishment.

Greater Manchester Police are investigating allegations of abuse by Sir Cyril Smith at Knowl View, a Rochdale children's home which closed in 1994. Officers are also looking at claims the authorities covered it up.
Quote:
Liberal MP Cyril Smith wrote to the BBC in 1976 asking it not to investigate the "private lives of certain MPs".

The MP, who died in 2010 and has been accused of abusing children, wrote to the then home secretary about "filth, innuendo and stirring" by reporters.

The BBC investigation had been looking into claims of an alleged foreign-backed campaign to discredit MPs.

Former children's minister Tim Loughton said the former Rochdale MP's letters were "bully-boy tactics".

"It was an abuse of position that somebody as an MP was saying, 'You shouldn't look at us, we're above the law,'" he said.
Smith had been the subject of an investigation into the alleged abuse of children in Rochdale but the case was not known about publicly, and he was never charged.

Current Rochdale MP Simon Danczuk is due to appear before the Home Affairs Select Committee later, where he is expected to call for a new inquiry to include the activities of Smith.

Mr Danczuk recently published a book alleging more than 140 complaints had been made by victims but Smith had been left free to abuse children as young as eight.

Greater Manchester Police and Rochdale Council are carrying out two separate investigations into child abuse allegations involving the late MP.

More than 100 MPs are calling for a larger inquiry into historical claims of child abuse in schools, hospitals and care homes.
At the time the media had been investigating a claim made by Prime Minister Harold Wilson that South African secret agents had been trying to smear British MPs.

The Liberal Party was thought to be a particular target because of its outspoken opposition to South Africa's apartheid policy.

The BBC had employed two freelance journalists, Barrie Penrose and Roger Courtiour, to look into Mr Wilson's claims.

According to letters in the National Archives, Smith wrote to BBC director general Sir Charles Curran in September 1976 saying he was "deeply concerned about the investigative activities of the BBC", especially relating to "the private lives of certain MPs".

"So far as I am aware I am not one of them, and hence I write without personal involvement."
Quote:
Police are examining whether there is evidence of a criminal cover-up over claims of sexual abuse at a school linked to the late MP Sir Cyril Smith.

The leader of Rochdale Council and Greater Manchester's chief constable are due to give an update on the claims over Knowl View school in Rochdale.

Officers are already investigating the abuse allegations and the council is set to widen its own inquiry.

Sir Cyril's family has said he always denied such accusations.

The development comes after police launched an investigation into allegations that former Liberal MP Sir Cyril, who died in 2010 aged 82, sexually abused boys at Knowl View residential school. The school closed in 1992.

Officers are also looking into claims he abused boys at the privately run Cambridge House children's care home, which closed in 1965.

However, the BBC understands that Greater Manchester Police are now reviewing whether there is evidence of a cover-up at Rochdale Council, which was one of the local authorities that ran the Knowl View school.

Police are examining a book written by the Labour MP Simon Danczuk, as well as other sources as part of their inquiries.

DanaC 09-03-2014 04:14 AM
Quote:
Liberal MP Sir Cyril Smith was part of a high-level paedophile ring operating at Westminster in the 1970s, a Labour MP has claimed.

Simon Danczuk alleges in a new book Sir Cyril used his influence to escape prosecution for sexually abusing boys.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the MP was part of an "informal" network of sex abusers.

And he claimed police were pressured by the authorities to drop investigations into his activities.

"Had he been prosecuted, then the house of cards would have fallen, in terms of that paedophile network, and it could have brought the government down," the Labour MP told Today.

He also claimed child abuse allegations against Sir Cyril were widely known at the time and were even raised in public, at a Liberal party conference.
Sir Cyril's family have said they are "saddened" by Mr Danczuk's allegations "made so long after Sir Cyril Smith's death and at a time he is no longer able to defend himself".

"Sir Cyril always denied accusations made against him while he was living," they added in a statement issued when extracts from Mr Danczuk's book were serialised in the Daily Mail.

Mr Danczuk, MP for Sir Cyril's former constituency Rochdale, alleges police received at least 144 complaints about the late Liberal MP but MI5 and Special Branch put pressure on police officers to drop investigations into the alleged abuse.

"When he was initially arrested, he used the local power that he had, in the 60s, to be able to convince people that he shouldn't be prosecuted," he told the Today programme.

"But once he became a member of Parliament in 1972, I think he joined an, obviously informal, network of paedophiles that existed in and around Westminster."

Asked how he could say that with certainty, Mr Danczuk said Sir Cyril had been identified as attending Elm Guest House in south-west London, adding: "[This is] where it is alleged other significant paedophiles attended."
In 2012, the Metropolitan Police launched an investigation into allegations of sexual abuse by politicians in the late 1970s and 1980s, after Labour MP Tom Watson raised concerns in the House of Commons about a "powerful paedophile network linked to Parliament and No 10".

The investigation, Operation Fernbridge, is centred on the former Elm Guest House in Barnes, the scene of alleged parties involving MPs and other members of the establishment.


-snip-

The Metropolitan Police has confirmed Sir Cyril was among those who visited the premises.

The Crown Prosecution Service has said he should have been prosecuted for 1960s abuse in Rochdale. Sir Cyril died in 2010 aged 82.

It was alleged he raped boys at the Knowl View residential school and abused boys at Cambridge House Children's Home, a privately-run care home in Rochdale, which closed in 1965.

He had a long association with Knowl View, where he was on the management board when he was a councillor.

Sir Cyril was originally a Labour councillor in Rochdale and later a Liberal then Liberal Democrat MP for the town from 1972 to 1992.
Quote:
There is little doubt that former Rochdale MP Sir Cyril Smith raped some of his victims, the town's current MP has claimed.

It comes after the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) admitted Sir Cyril, a Lib Dem, should have been prosecuted for abusing young boys in the 1960s.

Labour MP Simon Danczuk said the allegations of rape had been made by people who attended Knowl View.

The council-run residential school closed down in 1992.

The abuse by Sir Cyril was also said to have taken place at Cambridge House Children's Home, a privately-run care home which closed in 1965.

-snip-

Twelve men have so far accused Sir Cyril of abusing them in the 1960s, police have confirmed.

Mr Danczuk said: "We now know from other victims (of Cambridge House) that indecent assault is what he would have been prosecuted with but his abuse went on from there.

"There is no doubt about it from the witnesses that have come forward that rape would have been included in the allegations against him, absolutely.

"That is what is alleged by people who were at Knowl View, which is a special school within Rochdale local authority area, and that is where it is alleged - and it is openly out there - that he raped children."
A Greater Manchester Police (GMP) spokesman said eight victims originally came forward in the 1960s, with two more coming forward in 1999 and a further two making claims following recent media coverage.

The CPS has admitted Sir Cyril, who was a Labour councillor in the 1950s and 60s, should have been charged with sex crimes more than 40 years ago.

Although he faced no action following inquiries in 1970 and the 1990s, the CPS said procedural changes meant a prosecution would have been pursued today.

Quote:
A high-ranking friend of Cyril Smith tried to warn off police investigating claims that he had been sexually abusing boys, a report reveals.

A senior detective investigating the claims against Smith said a magistrate made "veiled threats" to officers.

The detective's 1970 report to the Chief Constable of Lancashire said there was "prima facie" evidence of the MP's guilt.

The Director of Public Prosecution later advised against prosecuting.

The 14-page report by the detective superintendent, which has been redacted, has been seen by the BBC.

It said that Smith would have been "at the mercy of a competent counsel", but also reported that the MP's magistrate "buddy" had warned of "unfortunate repercussions for the police force and the town of Rochdale" should he be prosecuted.

The officer, whose name has been redacted from the report, was investigating allegations of sex abuse made by eight young boys, six of whom who had been at the privately-run Cambridge House care home in Rochdale.

-snip-

Smith was interviewed by the detective superintendent, who reported to former chief constable William Palfrey that "it seems impossible to excuse [Smith's] conduct".

"Over a considerable period of time, while sheltering beneath a veneer of responsibility, he has used his unique position to indulge in a series of indecent episodes with young boys towards whom he had a special responsibility," he wrote.

He said Smith was "most unimpressive during my interview with him".

The officer said: "He had difficulty in articulating and even the stock replies he proffered could only be obtained after repeated promptings from his solicitor.

"Were he ever to be placed in the witness box, he would be at the mercy of any competent counsel.

"Prima facie, he appears guilty of numerous offences of indecent assault."

The officer reported that he interviewed the magistrate who told him in his "personal opinion" he "sincerely hoped that this matter is not prosecuted before the court".

"In my opinion, as a Justice of the Peace, it is not court-worthy," he told the officer.
"The prosecution can do no good at all and the backlash will have unfortunate repercussions for the police force and the town of Rochdale."

He also told the officer it was "no secret" that he and Smith "are buddies, and not only politically".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-28330779
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-20568253

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27047442
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28141531

DanaC 09-03-2014 04:16 AM
Notice the Rochdale connection - along with Rotherham that is the other hotspot town for the childgrooming cases involving asian men and young girls. That said, in Rochdale where the grooming took place around 2008/9 the men responsible were prosecuted and it became a matter of fierce public debate.

Rochdale is and was a place of serious racial tension, and one of the results ofthat case was that the BNP (British National Party) made a good deal of political capital out of the ethnicity of the offenders. It became the main tranch of their political campaigning in that area. Which may partly explain the higher level of concern amongst the Rotherham authorities over the race issue.

Not that that excuses them in any way whatsoever.

Also - I haven't even touched on the other scandals involving prominent figures within the entertainment industry - most notably Jimmy Savile and allegations that he was part of a much wider ring of abuse - involving hospitals, secure schools, Broadmoor secure pyschiatric hospital and other places. Bear in mind that Savile had 'friends' in very high places.

The government recently did an about turn and announced a full scale and wide ranging enquiry into abuse at the highest levels - then they announced the person to head up that enquiry. Lady Butler-Schloss - an eminent former high court judge with a history of looking into abuse. The problem with that though, was that not only had she been implicated in trying to reduce damage to the catholic church during an abuse enquiry (telling a victim not to mention a bishop because 'the press would love a bishop' but also her late brother was one of the people suspected of having been involved in abuse.

She withdrew from the enquiry two days after being named to head it up and they are still trying to find someone else to take her place.

tw 09-03-2014 09:04 AM
It is not disgusting. It just is. A problem that exists because many largest institutions in the world all but endorse it. And because the outrage is so muted. Need we mention the Catholic Church protection of pedophiles - by the hundreds?

This problem exists because major institutions are not even prosecuted for sexual misconduct. Even the Pope has apparently said one thing and practices another. Even football players can beat the crap out of their girlfriends, fiance, or wife. And get a paltry two game suspension.

The DA for Philadelphia - Lynn Abraham - took Archdiocese files that proves the Church knew about and was all but protecting pedophiles. She even published the names. Other adjacent archdiocese have similar lists. And no other prosecutor subpoenaed those archdiocese. An overwhelming response even in the Cellar was almost a yawn. Pennsylvania's legislature refused for over ten years to pass legislation to protect children from sex and to enable prosecution of pedophiles. Opposition was mostly from the "Appalachia of Pennsylvania" regions. Where was the outrage? Rotheram is but another symptom of a muted public response.

Undertoad 09-03-2014 10:52 AM
We all bring our own world view to the table, when faced with the big news of the day, don't we? "This is how this relates to what *I* believe!"

There may be a little of everything in the mix. Cultural tendencies. Racial biases. Underprotection of children. Poor policing. Poor management of policing. Overapplication of political correctness. Groupthink that excuses the behavior. Groupthink that encourages the behavior.

This is like aircraft accidents, where there are often multiple causes; we can all think about the correction we might have made, the correction we are thinking about and worried about. But there can still be a combination we aren't prepared for.

DanaC 09-03-2014 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 908887)
There may be a little of everything in the mix. Cultural tendencies. Racial biases. Underprotection of children. Poor policing. Poor management of policing. Overapplication of political correctness. Groupthink that excuses the behavior. Groupthink that encourages the behavior.
.
I think that's a pretty fair summary.

tw 09-03-2014 08:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 908887)
There may be a little of everything in the mix. Cultural tendencies. Racial biases. Underprotection of children. Poor policing. Poor management of policing. Overapplication of political correctness. Groupthink that excuses the behavior. Groupthink that encourages the behavior.
Why justify public endorsement of corruption, links to major crime, irresponsible adults, a demented press, no checks and balances in the local government or the many higher levels of government, prosecution of top mangement where all this stuff must have tacit or overt approval, and justification using groupthink as an excuse? This could only occur when adutls in mass numbers acted as children. Are you saying even priests, ministrers, and rabbis can be excused for condoning this? Something this large could only exist when virtually all powers that be were complicit.

Aircraft crashes do not happen because everyone screws up. It happens when each one responsible person does not do his job. That is why investigations are conducted. To discover why each responsible person - who by themselves could have averted the whole thing - did not do their job.

Number of people who did not do their job, so that children in mass numbers could be sexually attacked, was massive. Groupthink can only occur when adults act like children rather than think for themselves as adults are required to do. Yes many adults are still children. But an entire town had nothing but adults with child mentalities? An entire town was that mentally deficient, morally bankrupt, and overtly corrupt? And that is an excuse?

Groupthink says the entire town should be prosecuted as accessories to the crime - if we are responsible. Or groupthnk is an excuse also used by many to excuse the Catholic Church for condoning and protecting pedophilia. Groupthink also justified the Halocaust. So groupthink is a valid excuse?

Plenty of excuses somehow justify what happened in Rotheram. Excuses that conclude we do not want to hold anyone responsible. Same groupthink is why the Catholic Church still protects pedophilia today.

Undertoad 09-03-2014 09:43 PM
I can't parse most of that. I'm pretty sure we said the same thing.

orthodoc 09-03-2014 10:05 PM
Tw, you diminish what happened to the young women in Rotherham by carrying on your endless personal vendetta against the Roman Catholic Church.

What happened to these young girls and women had nothing to do with the RCC, but had everything to do with Islam and the criminal elements that justify their actions in terms of their religion. Please widen your scope. This was a huge crime against everything non-Muslim, perpetrated by criminals to justify their assaults on innocent women.

DanaC 09-04-2014 04:32 AM
And you're doing exactly the same thing as tw - making this about Islam. It was not about Islam. This had nothing to do with religion.

There are cultural factors at play - but to suggest that this was in any way justified by these men in terms of religion is ludicrous. 80 to 90 percent of child abusers in the UK are white men - are they doing it because they are Christian?

This is what Nazir Afzal has to say about it. This is the man who reopened the case in Rochdale and led the investigation that resulted in the successful prosecution of the men there. He is the Crown Prosecution Service's lead on child protection and has been instrumental in changing the way the CPS deals with cases like this and has been at the forefront of recent investigations and prosecutions.


Quote:
His role means he has oversight of all child sex abuse cases in England and Wales. “So I know that the vast majority of offenders are British white male,” he says, setting the number at somewhere between 80 and 90%. “We have come across cases all over the country and the ethnicity of the perpetrators varies depending on where you are … It is not the abusers’ race that defines them. It is their attitude to women that defines them.”

Afzal, 51, is resigned to the ongoing scrutiny of commentators on the right towards the role of Asian men in recent grooming cases, but thinks that the focus is an overreaction. He is also wary of the suggestion found in the report, and reiterated by home secretary Theresa May on Tuesday, that a culture of “political correctness” had contributed to the authorities’ decision to turn a blind eye to the abuse of at least 1,400 in Rotherham.

“I don’t want to play it down. The ethnicity of these perpetrators is what it is. It is a matter of fact. It is an issue that has to be addressed by the state, and the authorities and the community – but it’s important to contextualise this,” he says, racing rapidly through his arguments, twizzling a paper-clip in his fingers in time with his swift delivery.

He notes that the amount of media attention devoted to child sex abuse cases is inconsistent. He led the legal teams that reopened and successfully prosecuted the Rochdale grooming case in 2012, over the abuse of 47 girls by a group of Asian men. “A few weeks after the Rochdale case, we dealt with a case of 10 white men in North Yorkshire who had been abusing young girls, and they were all convicted and they got long sentences. It didn’t get the level of coverage,” he says.

Where there is involvement of Asian men or men of Pakistani origin, he points to a practical, rather than cultural explanation – the fact that in the areas where grooming scandals have been uncovered, those controlling the night-time economy, people working through the night in takeaways and driving minicabs, are predominantly Asian men. He argues that evidence suggests that victims were not targeted because they were white but because they were vulnerable and their vulnerability caused them to seek out “warmth, love, transport, mind-numbing substances, drugs, alcohol and food”.

“Who offers those things? In certain parts of the country, the place they go is the night-time economy,” he says. “Where you have Pakistani men, Asian men, disproportionately employed in the night-time economy, they are going to be more involved in this kind of activity than perhaps white men are. We keep hearing people talk about a problem in the north and the Midlands, and that’s where you have lots of minicab drivers, lots of people employed in takeaways, from that kind of background. If you have a preponderance of Asians working in those fields, some of that number, a very small number of those people, will take advantage of the girls who have moved into their sphere of influence. It’s tragic.”

In the acres of coverage of this issue, few others have considered the possibility of such a pragmatic explanation for the profile of the abusers. Only Rochdale’s Labour MP, Simon Danczuk, has attempted a similar hypothesis, telling the New Statesman: “It’s a complex jigsaw and ethnicity is just one of the pieces. Class is a major factor, night-time economy is a factor in terms of this type of on-street grooming.”


-snip-

In the aftermath of the Rochdale trial, Afzal was disturbed at the way that some responded by muddling the actions of those prosecuted with their religious backgrounds. “There is a lot of criticism of religion – namely: ‘Is this a Muslim thing?’” He recalls how after the Rochdale case, someone called the Radio 4 Any Answers programme. “He said the Qu’ran supports paedophilia. I’m not paraphrasing, that is what he said. He wasn’t cut off, he was allowed to say all manner of things.”

“There is no religious basis for this. These men were not religious. Islam says that alcohol, drugs, rape and abuse are all forbidden, yet these men were surrounded by all of these things. So how can anyone say that these men were driven by their religion to do this kind of thing?

“They were doing this horrible, terrible stuff, because of the fact that they are men. That’s sadly what the driver is here. This is about male power. These young girls have been manipulated and abused because they were easy prey for evil men.”

But he recognises that this will be a difficult issue for the British Asian community for some time. “In one case I dealt with, a British National party member was convicted of child sexual abuse. The response of the BNP was to say that he was no longer a member. The British Pakistani community cannot do that about members of their community that are involved in abuse,” he says, pointing out that they do not have the same option of neatly removing membership rights from community members involved in abuse.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...e-in-rotherham


The problem of sexual abuse of young girls, and indeed young boys, is huge. It cuts across culture and race. White men, black men, asian men. The differences are in the style of grooming and the choice of victims but even then - many of the girls who were vicimised by those men in Rotherham were from the same group (vulnerable young people in care homes) as the victims of white non-muslim men.

Your response is exactly why people get worried about the race element. Though, from Afzal's report it seems that was a very minor factor in the way it was dealt with at the time. But people latching onto the fact that those men were muslim, as if that were the defining factor in what they did adds to racial tension and veils the real problems. And probably adds to the lack of willingness in those communities to step up and deal with those members of their community who do commit such crimes.

These were not Qu'ran bashing Islamists. They weren't ISIS. They were not fundamentalists. This didn't happen in a mosque under the eyes of Immams. They were drug taking, drug dealing, alcohol drinking criminals who raped and abused vulnerable girls.

DanaC 09-04-2014 05:13 AM
Quote:
Fernbridge was set up after Labour MP Tom Watson raised the issue of child abuse at Prime Minister's Questions in October 2012.

He spoke of "clear intelligence suggesting a powerful paedophile network linked to Parliament and No10".

The revelations come amid a series of other sexual allegations centring on Westminster.

It emerged over the weekend that Lord Brittan himself has been questioned by police in connection with a rape allegation.

He was understood to have been interviewed under caution last month after a woman claimed she was raped in London in 1967. The peer is believed to strongly deny the allegation.

Last month, police searched the Westminster office of the Labour peer Lord Janner of Braunstone in connection with historical child sex abuse allegations.

The search was part of an ongoing inquiry linked to children’s homes in Leicestershire and came after officers searched the 85-year-old politician’s home in Golders Green, north-west London, in December.

The peer has not been arrested.

It is understood more than 10 current and former politicians are now on a list of alleged child abusers held by police investigating claims of a Westminster paedophile ring.
MPs or peers from all three main political parties are on the list, which includes former ministers and household names.

Several, including Smith, are now dead, but others are still active in Parliament.

Another is said to be Sir Peter Morrison, the former MP and parliamentary private secretary to Mrs Thatcher, who died in 1995. He was linked to allegations of child abuse at homes in North Wales.

Mr Danczuk is leading a campaign for a public inquiry into historical child abuse in public life and has the support of 139 MPs.

He in a Sunday newspaper yesterday: “Among the higher echelons of party politics, where the real power resides, my impression is that there is little appetite to confront the abusers in their midst.
“Quite the opposite. The mood is defensive, the approach is dominated by silence. ‘Move along, nothing to see here’, or ‘what’s the point of raking all that up old boy?’”.

Former Conservative cabinet minister Lord Tebbit, who also served in Mrs Thatcher’s Government, said there "may well" have been a political cover-up over child abuse taking place at Westminster in the 1980s.

"At that time I think most people would have thought that the establishment, the system, was to be protected and if a few things had gone wrong here and there that it was more important to protect the system than to delve too far into it,” he said.

"That view, I think, was wrong then and it is spectacularly shown to be wrong because the abuses have grown."
Asked if he thought there had been a "big political cover-up" at the time, he said: "I think there may well have been."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...blishment.html

These men were not muslims. They were powerful men who had easy access to vulnerable young people.

The key factor is not ethnicity. It is access to victims.

A lot of criticism is levelled at the muslim community for not coming forward, for 'harbouring' those in their midst who commit such crimes. And maybe that's a fair criticism. Though, with reactions like yours it's easy to see why. But what about the political community? Coverups and protection. Another common feature of large scale child abuse cases.

limey 09-04-2014 06:13 AM
Thanks, Dani, for taking the time to explain this so thoroughly. I, too, was saddened to see Ortho's kneejerk reaction about this being a Muslim problem, but haven't the energy or time to set out the details.
In short, it is about powerful people (or those perceived as such - whether that's minicab drivers, politicians or entertainers) having access to vulnerable people whom they can abuse ....

orthodoc 09-04-2014 09:00 PM
I want to apologize for my post last night. It was completely unacceptable. It doesn't even make sense. I'm not doing well right now and plan to take some time away. Take care all.

Gravdigr 09-04-2014 10:38 PM
Uh-oh, she's pulling a Gravdigr.

DanaC 09-05-2014 01:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by orthodoc (Post 908961)
I want to apologize for my post last night. It was completely unacceptable. It doesn't even make sense. I'm not doing well right now and plan to take some time away. Take care all.
I think most of us understand you're having a hard time just now Orth. Lot of shit going on in your life. Sorry I went in so hard. Don't feel you need to vanish because of a kooky post. But if you do need break, please come back soon. *hugs*


Quote:
Uh-oh, she's pulling a Gravdigr.
yeah...but you do it with such panache :P

limey 09-05-2014 02:15 AM
Hugs Ortho! I knew it was uncharacteristic of you. X

xoxoxoBruce 09-05-2014 04:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaC (Post 908932)
There are cultural factors at play - but to suggest that this was in any way justified by these men in terms of religion is ludicrous.
This is happening a lot, blaming religion when it's actually cultural traditions. Islam doesn't dictate burkas, or not educating girls, it's tribal customs.

Of course the ones who benefit from these barbaric customs are the ones in power, and they wish to remain in power, so they strictly enforce the customs. Round and round it goes. Some of those involved is this circus are clergy but it's still about power through culture, not religion.


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