Gun does NOT equal cowboy!
 

I was thinking this would be a great source to get wolf and slang a Christmas gift, then I saw they decided to go all "cowboyish" and said, well, never mind.


The catalog link

Bruce sent me a link to the catalog site ... I've ordered a copy because I still have a preference to paging through a catalog whilst sitting upon the throne to clicking through an online catlog. Much of the stuff seems kind of fru-fru faux cowboy. Don't get me wrong, BEAUTIFUL, but fru-fru. This little guy IS amazingly cute though.

A lot of folks have issues with S&W right now anyway, although things are getting better ... there was a period during the *ahem* Clinton years while S&W was owned by a British company and the company entered into what was perceived by many as a "deal with the devil", going along with some ideas and demands by the gun control crowd in an attempt to position themselves as continuing to have a market share as more restrictive bans and manufacturing controls got put into place. Once this became known, a lot of people stopped buying S&W handguns, a lot of dealers stopped stocking them except for special orders. Also, there were significant quality control problems with a lot of the handguns produced, including the Walthers, which S&W manufactures in America. I've read a few things indicating that the boycott is oficially over.

I have an interest in the cowboy action shooting thing, and hope to get to some of the events or rendezvous I haven't managed to yet. I have a blackpowder revolver, which I found out last weekend is one heck of a lot of fun, although I do now better understand why Custer lost at Little Bighorn. If you have to load powder, ball, and percussion cap into the thing under pressure, and the enemy is whizzing arrows atcha as fast as he can pull the string back, you are DEAD.

And don't forget to smear the bearfat on the back end of the cylinder to make sure it doesn't flash over to the next chamber. Or is it a single shot?:)

Gun does not equal cowboy
 

Having read this post and tried to understand the humour ! It begs the question "Whats the thing you guys across the pond have about guns".
This is a serious question because there is a saying that what happens in the states happens in the UK within 5-10 years.
Is it because you have the right to bear arms? or is it some macho frontier thing.
The UK news now is full of drive by shootings,kids here are buying replica guns as a fashion accessory.Thank God most can't get real guns but an article in todays press give details of guns for drugs swaps by paramilitary's from Northern Ireland and black gangs in the cities of Manchester and London.No doubt Gangsta culture and rap shows guns=power.
Educate me because I'm confused.

In a culture founded on individualism, the right to power goes all the way down to the individual. And at the same time, the individual recognizes his or her responsibility to defend his/her self, and the most responsible in some ways will not accept society's assistance in their own defense.

Can someone put that in smaller words?

not smaller like this you bozos

couldnt help it....you took away the small font trick
 

In a cltre fndd on indvdlsm, th rght to pwr gs all the wy dwn to th indvdl. nd at th sme tme, the indvdl rcgnzs hs or hr rspnsbty to dfnd hs/hr slf, nd th mst rspnsble in sme wys wll nt acpt scty's asstce in thr own dfns.

the last post
 

sorry...sorry everyone....very sorry

my fault

wont happen again

sorry

And that my friend is exactly why you have;
Didn't ever occur to you that "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is more than a bumper sticker. If you can't protect yourself who will? The Police? Their job is to investigate and solve crimes, which means the crime has already been committed.
When that asshole shot up all those school kids, you decided that the best way to prevent that was to disarm the people that don't commit crimes and you're surprised that the people that do commit crimes are having a field day. Well, doh.
As soon as the people were disarmed the crime rate went through the roof. I read it was so bad in urban areas the police won't even respond to non life threating calls. I don't know if that's true or not, but it will be sooner or later.
I wonder if the Aussies are having the same problem.
Irish, druggies, gangstas, does it really matter to you who blows your head off?
No common sense and history shows guns = power. The power to keep yourself alive. If you want to, of course.

bruce,
am i detecting some anti-limey sentiment?

just the tone cougar

im very perceptive....
...for instance......i dont think you like me so much

Michael Moore seems to point out that the US media tries to generate the biggest frenzy it can; be afraid and consume as much as possible. It doesn't sound like a logical thing, but I stopped watching the newsdroids several years ago, and I stopped conceal-carrying my CZ. I just didn't see any need to. I love my guns, and want to get a few more choice weapons, and I'd be pissed if any more knee-jerk legislation gets passed because two wackos walked into a school.

This is about the only thing that Michael Moore and I agree on. Right Michael? *Mmmph!*

Not at all.
Anti-stupidity sentiment is rampant , however. England is not the first to make this mistake. History repeats itself for those that don't learn from it.

edit - I was answering Ljim, but Ury snuck in there.:D

also, the phrasing of anti- limey was a little tiny joke

see, "limey" is generally considered to be an anti english term, and my questioning bruce's "anti-limey" sentiment was a teenie bit amusing....to me, anyway

Re: Gun does not equal cowboy
 

If you ever see a watermelon explode due to .44 magnum hollow points you'd understand.

I grew up around guns all my life. My current collection (most given to me when my father passed) is approximatly 75 guns. Most are collector types and several have never been shot. It was just a way of life. Guns allow me to get meat. Growing up in rural oklahoma with a stay at home mother, meat was not something sold at the local Krogers or SafeWay. Hunting was no hobby but a way of life. Sure we could have made it without it, but a couple of extra deer sure did help our butcher cows last longer. Fresh tree-rat(squirrel) tastes almost as good as they look. There's something very empowering knowing that if I were affected by a blackout similar to the one the northeast faced earlier this year, I wouldn't have to go without fresh meat just because the scanners at Wal-Mart were down. (That and it's also nice to know said .44 will make one helluva hole in a strung out cranksta gangsta if he chooses to take what is not his(which is becoming more of a problem here in the midwest than deer eating up gardens in suberbia,USA))

Re: Re: Gun does not equal cowboy
 

-george's impression of dirty Harry and Gallagher's love child

ok, here goes:

I love the name onyxcougar, and you are very informed and witty. Plus, I am deeply attracted to english women...It's the accent...it makes me feel so unworthy and naughty with my crude american mannerisms. I bet you are as beautiful as your prose. And kind. I also love the way you have perfect punctuation and grammar. You also seem to be able to take a joke very well. I have a very good english friend, and he has a very distinct sense of humour(note the english spelling). I'll admit that I missed it, and didn't know you were english, but then, the accent doesn't translate very obviously into text. What I'm trying to say, cougar, is that i really really really want to impress you and to make you think I'm smarter than I actually am. You see, I have a very fragile ego, and need constant reassurance from people I look up to. I see you as one of the quicker people in the cellar, and if nothingelse, I would just like to let everyone know that your grace and intelligence is unmatched among the mere mortals that surround you.

I actually mean some of that cougar, and before you say it, just let me say that I know I'm a cock!

~~~~chills~~~~~


I like you more every minute, cougar.


and, by the way, i said C O C K , not crock....I'm very legitimate and accurate in what i say, and will not tolerate being called a crock....I mean, insults are one thing, but when you question my integrity, that's when I draw the line....Harumph!

Uh, Jim. She just moved from Vegas to North Carolina and I'm pretty sure she's a citizen. ;)

oh ho... Reeeee heeeeee heellleeeeee? come clean, onyx....what side of the road do you drive on? s or z? come on.... aluminum or al-you-minnium? .....chips or fries? go to the john or the lu? which is it?

Six shot, Ruger Old Army.

Ran short on bearfat, so I've been using WonderWads. You don't get yer fingers gooey that way.

Tried the Pyrodex pellets, but actually like the poured powder better.

Re: Gun does not equal cowboy
 

Our question is generally "what's the thing you guys across the pond have against guns"

Britain and Australia are generally held up as example of what happens when countries enact restrictive gun control measures, confiscating personal property and leaving an unarmed populace helpless against the predations of criminals.

Crime IS on the rise in both nations. Rapid rise.

Do you know what happens in the US if a state that has not previously had a concealed carry law enacts one? Crime goes DOWN. Once law-abiding and responsible people are possibly carrying guns, criminals have a harder time of things. Before Florida enacted shall issue concealed carry (that means that just so long as you aren't disqualified for having a gun permit you shall be issued one if you apply) the crime rates (possibly the ones involving handguns) was 36% above the national average. After? 4% BELOW the national average.

This has been borne out in other states as well.

Where are the highest rates of crime and gun violence? The places that don't allow their citzens to carry guns or to have weapons in their homes ... Washington, DC, New York City, Chicago, Illinois.

Now that the comapny is owned by Americans ....again, we see the company doing better. I personally like S&Ws although the only model I own is a 640 (pocketgun, 357, no external hammer, less than 1 inch barrel, magnaported).

The problem they are now facing is the bad service and quality of their handguns.

Once they get their act together I would like to purchase one of their "mountain gun" revolvers, as seen in the movie Broken Arrow. The lady ranger carried it. It's a 44 mag in a manageable frame.

They have that new .50 cal hand<strike>gun</strike>cannon too ...

(edited to try to get the stupid strikeout tags to work)

I'm an American for gun control.

"Studies" that claim to prove that increased gun ownership, conceal and carry laws cause a reduction in crime are flawed big time. Correlation does not prove causation. If there is a reduction in the yearly crime rate in Sarasota, FL the year after conceal and carry legistation is enacted, does that prove that the reduction is indeed caused by the presence of legal guns as deterants or is there a chance that other factors contributed to this decline? changing demographics, shifting laws, drug treatment programs, weather? Come on.
Does the poverty ridden inner city of Chicago have a higher incidence of crime than Sarasota Florida? yes.Would the crime, death and injury rate in Chicago's southside decrease when everyone is allowed to be armed? Well obviously not, because essentially everyone is armed allowed or otherwise. So the next step is to have everyone armed more. Radar's nukes perhaps. The cops need more firepower. I'm not convinced that gun proliferation serves as a crime deterent. I think true crime prevention addresses the motivating contexts of criminal behavior- economics, education, health, community.

Warch, I agree with you in that not every study is perfect, and that correlation does not prove causation. After all, we have CCW here, and crime is apparently up in the City of Philadelphia (I'd have to look at harder numbers...stats are being flung around left and right right now due to the mayoral race).

But I think you're taking it to a bit of the extreme here...and I'm saying this as someone that was once for gun control (and voted against CCW in MO 4 years ago).

In such a short time span (one year), with other items being constant...unless people have suddenly gotten moral transplants, I'd say that you'd have to point to CCW.

Not everyone is allowed to be armed due to prior run-ins with the law, mental issues, etc.

And criminals don't care about gun laws--that's why they're criminals. Chicago has had a handgun ban for years now...it doesn't look like it's helped much.

But if the state of IL were to allow CCW and the City of Chicago dropped its ban on handguns, I bet one would feel more confident walking down S. Halsted with a concealed weapon...and a criminal might think twice about committing a crime. Although, criminals can be incredibly stupid. But I do think you'll see a fair drop in crime rather quickly...not massive or overwhelming, but enough to notice a difference.

But only takes one well-placed bullet. You could be armed to the hilt, but one bullet in your skull will kill your ass just fine.

I dunno...cops with more firepower COULD be helpful. But then you run the risk of moving closer to a police-like state.

And I do agree that we need to focus on the "fundamentals." Hell, that could solve a lot of problems. But until we do, people deserve to have a fair chance against a criminal, right? Police aren't going to help you after you're dead, other than tagging you and calling your relatives. Wouldn't you like the opportunity to protect yourself at the very moment a crime is going down?

If I'm not mistaken, CCW is now the law in MN...is everyone freaking out over it? Is everyone arming to the teeth? Or is life going on as normal?

I suggest that other items- were not constant, and were not considered in the analysis. Maybe increasing the number of gated retirement communities lowered crime. Or maybe it was the extra funding the Catholic missions received. Or maybe there were less days over 98 deg. But as proof of causation, its not clear, its correlation that proves nothing. You can measure a lower rate of criminal incidents,(assuming the definition of criminal incidents remains consistent), but targeting the probable cause of the change take more control. Here is some interesting info on John Lott whose study is most often sited http://www.citypages.com/databank/24...ticle11064.asp

The handgun ban instituted to lower a crime problem, (just as the above argument) does not address the motivation or prevention of crime. This ban is a desperate attempt to lower the number of available weapons, to not add to the problem. But as you know its easy to get a gun if you want one or feel you need one, criminal or not. If Chicago dropped their gun ban, I dont think you'd see much difference with out other efforts to reduce crime.Its way way more complex.

Lets re-arm all Iraqies and see if crime is reduced. Lets allow good kids who have passed a gun ed course to carry to school and see if that reduces school shootings.

I'm saying that many cops are outarmed right now. From armour piercing bullets, automatic weapons, other weapon innovations.. the ante keeps going up. What is ok to ban? should we allow assault weapons for those deemed legal?

Early intervention in health and education has been proven to lower criminal activity. But that requires a longterm investment and interest in the public safety of a community as well as the individual. Such initiatives are starting to be looked at for their economic impact as well. Head Start, Success by Six.

Well I saw a man get shot in a gang drive-by well before the new law. Would an armed civic response, or the threat of one, have prevented the shooting? Nah. If crossfire had broken out would more of us at the bus stop been at higher risk of injury? Yeah.

So far, the main impact I can see of the conceal and carry laws in MN is a boom in sales of signs that state "(name of establishment) bans guns in these premises" (They cant say "on" unless you own the property.) Gun ban signs are posted everywhere- small businesses, churches, restaurants, bars, theaters, schools including this University, Xcel energy center hockey games, the state fair grounds, city hall, the state capital, . You can pack it in the parking lot. Also sited at most community gatherings "Minnesotans against getting shot" petitions to have the law repealed.

Gun deaths continue - the Cold Spring school shooting . The shooter was talked down by an unarmed teacher. Got his gun from home where it was a legal purchase- Dad's in law enforcement. This is now a familiar scenario. Troubled kids with access to this tool will use it.

And a few weeks back a woman was killed and her lawyer shot through the neck at a court hearing, the hand gun was legally purchased by the shooter, a cousin of the victim. The shooter lured the two to a court house she knew didnt install metal detectors. The gun ban sign didnt deter her actions.;) Again crossfire in lobby wouldnt have done much preventively.

People who suffer moments of unstablity, or consider suicide, or are immature, stupid and curious, or are murderous, when there are guns available, will use this effective tool on themselves and others. My concern is that a concealed handgun law will not make communities safer, but rather make more handguns more available to all imperfect audiences.

whew, sorry so long. Whats gotten into me?

Oh and by the way, Happy belated Birthday T. You old!

Gun does not equal cowboy
 

So when I asked the question about the American way of life and the attitude to guns two things appear to come to the fore. Self protection against crime against the person and putting food on the table.
I can handle the protection bit,but the hunting hmmm.
Most people in the UK have no experience with guns much less using them for self defence.A farmer in the UK has just got out of jail got a 5 year stretch for shooting 2 guys who broke into his house.killed one and injured the other did not get parole because he would not admit to doing wrong and said would do it again if the same thing happened.Thats the attitude to guns by the authorities here.Crazy or what?

OK, you don't believe concealed Carry laws made the crime rate go down. Fine, but the point is THEY DIDN"T MAKE IT GO UP, so what's the problem?

Apples and oranges. The guns are already in the community, in the homes and businesses. I don't think many people are buying guns because concealed carry becomes an option. They are carrying guns they already own. Although I will admit some people have told me they are buying a different gun that's more conducive to concealment. Personally I don't carry most of the time, but there are times and places where I prefer to exercise that option.

I do believe that increased gun availabilty and proliferation, namely handguns and automatic weapons,will serve to increase incidents of gun violence, both criminal and accidental.

Bet youre gonna ask me to prove it and I'll hafta do a big old google search to do my best... but it seems kind of logical to me.

And that has to do with concealed carry, how?

Conceal and carry laws increase gun sales, thus increase the number of guns in a community. Particularly new guns, youve mentioned, that conceal better, as well as accessories like purses with secretive compartments.

They may increase the total slightly but not the number of owners. CC laws are not prompting people who would not normally own a gun to buy them. They are giving the people who own them another option in usage. Then of course since the thugs don't know who those people are, those that carry are helping to protect everyone by default.
Having a gun around may make you nervous but if you wake up to the sound of an electric chainsaw, it's too late.;)

How many times has a legally owned automatic weapon been used to commit a crime???? And by automatic I mean full auto, not semi.

from the UK , Nuff said ,

Check out Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. I thought I was not gonig to like it, but I ended up agreeing with him in his final conclusion about irresponsible media. He showed that there are as many gun owners in Canada as the US [aside: I do not know about conceal carry laws in Canada], but far fewer crimes.

Blacks are portrayed in the media as thugs, the police are portrayed as out to arrest and prosecute any black they can find, white people are mass murderers, terrorista are around every corner. A single murder takes center stage, and is short stroked for 15 minutes of the 30 minute local news.

Michael Moore also paints the US as warmongering and bloodthirsty; that's debatable. That's debated every day here in nearly every thread.

It's the only things that Moore could find different between the US and Canada. I'm not going to live in fear and waste my life; I turned off the news and the networks long ago, and I'm much happier. Don't believe all the gun hysteria you read. They do not, and never have had any mystical powers. My guns are tools just like my dremel and my saw; absolutely nothing else.

Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage.

Conceal and carry also adds risk by allowing and encouraging easier access for both the owner, and those around him/her. If the owner suffers a moment of rage, there is immediate and convienent access. Also daily carried guns, stored in bags, holsters, and cars are less secure and increase the risk of loss or theft- whether by criminal or baby... Like your keys, your wallet, your cellphone, your car.

I'm not for banning all guns. I'm for rational control of gun proliferation, better enforcement of gun sale laws and background checks. I'm for letting law enforcement decide, case by case, who can get a permit for concealed handguns.

I'm for supporting law enforcement in the prosecution of gun crimes and most of all, for real, effective crime prevention- early intervention, education, health services. You can pay for it now, or you can pay much more for it later.

Going deer hunting with your uncle, Having your secured gun in your home for protection, or enjoying the sport of target shooting with your girlfriend is different than making it legal for citizens of a community to socially interact while armed with hidden deadly handguns.

Why are guns banned from courthouses? Why are guns banned from stadiums? Why is that venue's risk considered more important than the public's Target parking lot? (no pun intended) If concealed weapons pose no greater risk, why are there metal detectors popping up everywhere?

from the Centers for Disease Control:
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.


oh, sorry. found the above stats collected at the National Education Association website.

[quote]Originally posted by warch
Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage.

I wonder if that includes the Suburban full of machine guns BATF lost a few years ago.

Guns are stolen, therefore people shouldn't be allowed to have them. Yeah. That makes sense.

How about "guns are stolen from cars and homes, therefore people should be encouraged to carry them at all times"?

Conceal and carry also adds risk by allowing and encouraging easier access for both the owner, and those around him/her. If the owner suffers a moment of rage, there is immediate and convienent access.

If the only reason we don't kill those around us is that we don't have immediate access to a gun, we should all be in mental hospitals, not walking (and driving) around free.

I'm for letting law enforcement decide, case by case, who can get a permit for concealed handguns.


Why should the cops decide whether or not a person can carry a gun? They are supposed to be public servants, not masters. They certainly think they are "above" non-cops, which is reason enough to deny them that power.


...is different than making it legal for citizens of a community to socially interact while armed with hidden deadly handguns.


Somehow I think "hidden" is a strawman here. Or are you for legal "open carry"?

deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined

This is called statistical cherry picking and would get an F in a good statistics class.

Both sides indulge in this kind of thing...

No that's not what I said. Guns are stolen,and guns are "found" by people other than the owner often with deadly results and therefore secure gun possession should be a major concern as the NRA states. Conceal and carry, I feel, is less secure gun possession. You obviously disagree and so it is.
Well I'll agree with that. But I'd add that not all people are as calm, centered, and benevolent at all times as you. And is there any level of force or weaponry you would deny or regulate to your fellow citizenry?

Well, I was talking specifically about concealed handguns. Cops are sposed to uphold the laws we democratically hammer out. And at this point I feel they may be in the best position to conduct full criminal background checks as well as monitor stolen guns, illegal sales, etc.

Nah, you can take out both hidden and deadly from that statement if you wanna. But you raise an interesting point. Why isnt the law to just carry? Why the conceal? There must be some advantage or reasoning, beyond aesthetics. If the arguement is a simple one of protection and crime prevention , why not just pack it the outside?

I think more gun education would be better.

I shot trap and skeet during high school for the local 4-H teams. So while other kids where learning about guns from the now governor of California, I was out getting hands on experience. You can't piece together the clay pigeons as nicely as the liquid terminator can reattach an arm.

No matter how hard we try the US can simply not legislate morality. Be it smoking, speeding, or gun control. No matter how many laws we pass we will not create a perfect society. What we can do is educate people. We can show them the truthful consequences of their actions.

Life is not a Mountain Dew commercial.

Maybe the media and hollywood are partially to blame for showing how cool Clint Eastwood is while he smokes a cigar and blazes his sixguns.

Maybe more people should listen to Folsum Prison Blues and listen to the regret johnny sang about knowing that unlike the train whistle he can never be free again cause he shot that man in reno just to watch him die, instead of (c)rap songs about busting a cap in somebody's azz cause they dissed you.

Maybe we need to put the 10 commandments back in school.

Maybe we need to do a lot of things, but I don't think stricter gun control laws is one of them.

Me, calm, centered, and benevolent? Not likely. But I've never tried to kill anyone. Not even maim them a little. To deny me (or anyone else) the right to carry a weapon on the grounds that if I have it, I might kill someone with it, is to assume I'm incapable of controlling or unwilling to control any murderous impulses I might have.

Cops are supposed to enforce the law, as you point out. Letting them decide who gets to carry a weapon and who does not goes beyond enforcing the law into becoming a law unto themselves.

PA law did (and may still) allow open carry. The problem is that cops and judges conspired to interpret that law so that if any part of the gun was hidden (e.g. by a holster), that counted as concealed carry.

There are a couple of sound crime-prevention arguments behind concealed carry versus open carry. One is deterrence -- open carry protects only the carrier. Concealed carry provides a degree of protection for anyone who might be carrying. The other is retention. I know of absolutely no instance where a person carrying concealed has had his or her weapon taken by a criminal. There are many cases where a person carrying openly (including cops) has had his or her weapon taken.

However, the main problem with open carry is what you might expect -- it makes anti-gun people nervous.

Well maybe. OK, not you, but anyone else. ;) Its fair to assume that not everyone is capable of said control. Background checks seem generally accepted to be a good idea.

My belief is that your right to carry a handgun sufficiently threatens my right to public safety (and yours) due to variables of increased gun presence in community settings, your unpredictable actions, unintended accidents, and the actions of others that might aquire your weapon. I think arguements of crime prevention are bogus.

I draw the line at handguns. Others might at automatic weapons, others no line at all, roll out the missiles. Its a negotiation of rights in order to coexist.

Like I said, I've got no problem with you bagging a deer or protecting your home. I just dont want to ride the bus or stand in a DVM line, or go to a losing Cubs game (!) in which everyone is packing. I've seen those law abiding crowds get ugly.

That's just one guy who has apparently done studies. There are a lot more out there. Of course that story says nothing about the positive aspects involved in CCW...sounds like a bunch of anti-gun nazis up there.

I just said that last part to point out that the pendulum swings both ways. :)

Chicago became the murder capital of the US during a time of prosperity in this country. Now, I'm sure that there are several reasons why the murder rate went up in Chicago...but if you live in a city of 3 million people, where cops have 9 million things to do, and the populace is unarmed...don't you think the criminals would use that to their advantage?

That's just your opinion though...you really don't know if that would happen or not.

But has there been an increase in violent crime or violence involving guns since CCW went into effect?

That situation doesn't relate to the CCW issue though. It sounds like the dad had the piece before CCW went into effect, so it's not like that had anything to do with the kid losing his mind. That could have happened at any time.

Kids have had access to guns for a while now. I would imagine that it's not too terribly hard to get a piece on the shadier streets in Minneapolis or St. Paul. If you want a gun bad enough, you'll get it...or get caught.

But that's not the fault of the CCW law. That's just another moron being criminal...and the failure of whatever level of government involved to have adequate security.

Crimes involving guns are not going to disappear...we have them here all the time. And you don't even have to believe the stats...b/c each side loves to skew 'em their way.

But let me put it to you this way, since you come across as a Democrat or liberal.

You would be outraged if minorities weren't given the protection afforded to them in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. You'd be fuming if the courts tried to limit our 1st Amendment rights through something like a Mapplethorpe exhibit.

You see, the Democrats love to give people things...even if it costs taxpayers a ton of money. But yet, most Democrats and liberals seem to want to take guns away from people. It clearly seems like a 2nd Amendment violation to me, but the Democrats will try and justify it to no end. And I'm not saying this is necessarily you, warch, but that shit irks me to no end. That's as bad as conservatives trying to inject morality into our society...b/c they think it's the right thing for everyone.

How is this going to happen? Particularly when the laws involving the purchase of guns have not changed.

People doing stupid shit with guns on themselves isn't going to change just because of CCW. As far as to others, it won't go away, but the chances of one getting away with it are going to shrink. After all, you never know who has a gun.

Plus, it's not really easy to get a CCW license...at least from what I've seen. There's a lot of hoops to go through. Does that help cut down on the number of idgits that get guns? Based on what I know, I'd say it helps.

But we're talking about good law-abiding citizens who legally want to protect themselves in case shit jumps off. Sure, some folks probably get a swollen head from having a piece, but that's the exception and not the rule. Guns are serious things--they're not taken lightly by most Joe Q. Publics. Not to mention, some states don't give a whole lot of leeway as to reasonable use of a firearm in a dangerous situation--I know Missouri's are rather narrow.

You've lived in two states previous to MN with CCW. Austin is generally considered one of the safest cities around...and Texas has some incredibly "loose" gun laws. Did you feel particularly nervous while living in Texas? I'm going to wager "no."

You don't hear about people going apeshit with guns in the heat of the moment too often--the woman in Alabama a few years ago comes to mind. It's sorta like airplane crashes to me--for every plane that crashes, thousands more take off and land safely. With guns, for every nutjob that goes retarded with one, there are way WAY more that are responsible with theirs.

Bottom line--guns are good, Warch is a good egg, if only a bit misguided or confused. :)

-10, illegal ;)

[quote]I'm not for banning all guns. I'm for rational control of gun proliferation, better enforcement of gun sale laws and background checks. [quote]
They have hundreds of laws on the books, and have for a long time, that control the sale of guns. Even though I have a Concealed Carry Permit, I can't buy a gun without a background check. It's a federal felony to attempt to buy a gun if you are not eligible. Since this system went into effect, tens of thousands of people have been stopped from buying guns. How many of these "felons" have been procecuted? ZERO as in zip, nada, none. We don't need any more laws. We need the law enforcers to do their part.

They do. The way the law reads in PA, you apply, get fingerprinted, submit 2 photos and loooog forms. Then the Sheriffs office does a background check, contacts your police dept, the FBI, your neighbors, your employer and your friends. If they can't find a reason you shouldn't have a permit they have to give you one. That's case by case as far as I'm concerned. The only difference in this system is it puts the burden of proof on them. Oh, then you have to renew every 5 years with new pictures and a less thorough check as they are just looking for changes. I've had my permit for a long time and I've been told that new applicants have to prove formal training now, but I can't say for sure.

Did I miss something somewhere? Are you, OnyxCougar, a Brit? I have no problem understanding a British accent. Monty Python, BlackAdder, Fawlty Towers, Blake's Seven, and Doctor Who have served me well.

So I suppose you mentioned this several months back, and I just didn't notice?

Pends on where you are. I walked into the county courthouse without a CCW at about 10am one friday in 2k and I had a fresh permit in my hands by 10:20. No shit. In and out, provided you pass the background check. You need not own or even register a handgun with the permit. Also our office staff isn't horrified at the notion of granting people their 2a rights, because so very many people own and carry a variety of handguns without incident . Someone applying for a CCW is about as common and unthreatening as those getting any other court or county document.

This might scare Warch types but it's been working pretty well here for a number of years. If it were a problem you can bet the Brady Bitch would have some campaign against the county.

Murder is almost unheard of here and , in fact, the last murder was committed with a knife. To bad the victim dint have a piece.

There are firearms injuries here sometimes but they are normally hunting related. The last I remember was from about 20 years ago. A hunter shot another from long distance in the head. Charges were filed for negligence or somesuch but I cant remember if there was a conviction.

That's the local Sheriff handling permits on a case by case basis as the state intended. They feel the local law enforcement knows their constituents best. How did they do a background check, Slang?

I agree.

Something I noticed soon after I started carrying full time was that many people didnt have faith in the own self control enough to carry. They were elligible for a CCW but didnt apply for one.

This seemed silly to me when I heard someone explain that they shouldnt have one. But it makes sense. Many people eliminate themselves from consideration. That's perfect. Many people dont want to take the responsibility and they recognize how serious a burden this can be.

Hey, I'm all about the choice! Yea or Nay! (just dont tell me I cant participate becuase you dont)

PICS, I assume but not sure.

Hey, I realise my opinion differs from the majority of cellar posters here, but I'm old and I'm pretty set in it, as I'm sure y'all are. And yes it is just my opinion, as the feeling that concealed handguns help prevent crime may be yours.

Yes, at this point, there is no solid, agreed upon statistical proof that conceal/carry handguns prevent crime. And what is particularly troubling about researcher and "expert" John Lott, whose widely circulated More guns-Less crime "study" has not only proven to be bogus, (and he's assumed an alternative internet identity to slander others) is that he has appeared as an "expert" before various state legislations, including MN, has figured significantly in their decisionmaking and statements.

And yes, at this point there is no solid agreed upon statistical proof that conceal/carry increases crime. So why oppose this free choice? Because I want to lower my risk and the risk of those I love of being shot by my fellow citizens.Even without statistical backup, I think more guns in a given area increases the odds of more guns being shot in a given area.

You mean basic human rights, yes. And I'm outraged at the levels of gun violence in many urban minority communities. 1964 isnt 1791.

Maplethorpe's case raised interesting cultural questions that were publically debated. I'm more fuming currently about the patriot act tracing my library books.Again a clash of rights.

All rights are not absolute, unless youre the only one here. When your right conflicts with my right, we need to negotiate to find the lesser evil.

Heh heh, Yeah, Republicans save taxpayers money!
The whole 2nd amemdment debate- again- is there any limit to what arms one can bear? The idea that its absolute is not practical. Now, in this age, with the array of weaponry of 2003? I think handguns should be closely regulated. That's my opinion. I think conservatives, radical ones, have done a terrific job of injecting the "moral" justification, and paying for the bogus scientific proof, for unfettered personal possession of deadly weapons into our society. Its ironic.

Well, hurray for the Brady Bill! You support that then? From what I understand, besides the variation in rigor of background check, its like renewing your plates.

Ive stated the reasons why I oppose this law and the threat of increased crime is only one of the potential threats to public safety I feel will increase. But data is needed.

I'm interested in statistics that record gun violence. Looking consistently at not only what is considered criminal, but also recorded as accidental, suicidal. Not just deaths, but also injuries.

Did I feel nervous in Austin? Well its (was) the hippie stronghold, you know. There are other parts of Texas that freaked me out, for a number of reasons. But damn, that's good BBQ :)

I'd say that whether you're going to get shot or not, and moreover whether you're going to be killed or not, is more related to the local culture than the local gun laws.

That would be my takeaway from Austin: the presence of hippies overrules gun laws.

If someone wants a gun they can build one using cheap raw materials. If someone wants you dead they can blow you up or poison you or knife you or hire someone to kill you.

So, how to build a culture that doesn't want to use deadly violence? Obvious: create more hippies

The problem is that when hippies attempt to create more hippies, many of the new little hippies end up turning into Alex P. Keatons later on...