Need advice for a friend, quick!
 

Ok, everyone...I've bounced from board to board here, and from what I've seen, most of you have pretty good heads on your shoulders. So I'd like to ask your thoughts on something.

There's a girl I've known for years. She's one of my best friends, and she's helped me out a lot, so I want to help her. Lately she's been having some domestic difficulties. To be honest, I don't know what to tell her...

Here's the deal:

She's been married for almost four years. She and her husband, I swear, were perfect together. Everyone was thrilled when they got married, because they got along so well and were so much alike. Plus, the'd been having problems (he said he'd never get married again, and she almost married someone else....that's when he told her he couldn't live without her and decided to get married again). Anyway, she found out, in the third year of her marriage, that her husband had hit on one of her friends. He was turned down, of course, but it got back to her. When she confronted him, he told her he'd been attracted to this girl for a long time, and just wanted to see if she'd have slept with him. He claims that he WOULDN'T really have done anything, but he had to know it would get back to her. Anyway, when she confronted him, he said that she should be glad he got it out of his system, and that she shouldn't be upset because he hadn't planned on doing anything anyway. Well, they got all that straight, and things were great. THEN...

He started school, and she found out that he'd been hanging around with another girl at the job he has at the university. This girl has the hair color he likes, and the body type all men like. She dresses like a tramp, and she spends all her time between classes and during lunch with my friend's husband. Well, when she found out about THAT, she told him she didn't want this girl hanging around him anymore, that she had an ulterior motive, no matter what he thought, and that this girl better keep her hands off. She told him that if he didn't tell this girl to back off that she would, and he said, "ok." I was with her that day that she went to the school to see if this girl was hanging around with her husband. She was, and my friend told her that she needed to talk to her husband alone. The girl showed no sign of leaving, and when my friend said "IN PRIVATE," the girl got up and said, "okay, OKAY." Then, my friend found out that after she left, this girl came back and asked her husband what they had talked about, as if it was any of her business!

Well just recently, she found out that he took this girl to coffee, and when they walked out of the coffee shop, this girl was hanging onto his arm like she belonged there. (she knows all this because a friend of her goes to the university as well, and keeps her updated. This girl would NOT lie to her, and this is proven because her husband never denies his behavior) When she asked him about it, he said he wasn't doing anything with her, and didn't plan to, but he also said that him hanging around with this girl, whom he knows makes his wife uncomfortable, has nothing to do with her (his wife). Plus, he goes out with friends twice a week, and never invites his wife, but other women are there (both of which he used to date).

They've been having problems because during her pregnancy, she became severely depressed, and she's still having problems with it (she suffers from clinical depression). She truly loves this man, and he says he loves her, but she's worried. She has no proof that he's EVER cheated on her, but everyone's telling her she's being naive if she thinks he's not, and she doesn't want to end up being the last to know, if he is....

So she comes to me and lays all this out, and I don't know what to tell her. I told her that if it were me, I'd see if this girl was on her husband's ICQ, and if she was, to send her a message. She did that, but the girl never replied, and she apparantly hasn't tattled to the husband yet, either. My friend told her husband to expect a Q from this girl, btw.


Anyway, I really don't know what to tell her. She adores her husband, and they have a child. She wants to work things out, and she's hoping that she has nothing to worry about, that her husband is telling the truth about not cheating, but she feels that if he won't get rid of this girl that he's choosing her over his own wife.... she doesn't know how to get rid of this woman so her shadow isn't over the relationship. When she tries to talk to her husband about it, he tunes her out or says she's overreacting. I know both of them very well, been knowing them for years, and I want to see them stay together, but I don't know what to tell her. I'd confront the girl, if it were me. Hell, if she'd let me, I'd confront the girl myself and tell her to keep her hands off my friend's husband....


Anyway, she agreed to me posting her problem and asking for advice as long as I didn't mention her name, so here it is...I mean, do y'all think he's cheating? Is she overreacting? What steps should she take? Any good revenge advice to get rid of this interloper?


Sidhe

My opinion: It's no good trying to confront the girl. The only thing that will do is reconfirm that she is making your friend nervous/jealous. She isn't really the problem, anyway. The husband is the problem. Sounds like he is pushing his limits with your friend, trying to see how much he can get away with. I would insist that he stop spending time with the girl. Sure he could sneak around and talk to her or see her when he could, but eventually, he will get caught. And the expectation needs to be set with him that if he does continue this "relationship" he's out. But this is just what I would do. If he refuses to agree to those terms, then she is probably better off cutting her losses and leaving him. I know it sounds harsh, but your friend deserves to be the first girl on his mind.

YUP. case is dead on....she needs to stake her claim....if he resists it, then she's on the way out eventually anyway.....easier to change horses now while she's young than at age 40 when she catches him bonin' his 5th secretary.


it's ultimatum time

she should confront the other woman or have a friend go and have a little chat with her. she HAS to find out if there is anything between them, because if there is, she should leave him. no ifs, ands or buts. if he's cheating on her now, he'll do it again in the future, or even if he didn't, she would probably never be able to trust him again or feel the same. a good way to talk to the other woman maybe would be to act like her husband confessed already. go to the other woman and say "i know all about you two. i've already accepted it and i don't think it's your fault. it's my husband's fault. i just want to know how long you two have been fooling aroung for my peace of mind..."so this way, the homewrecker will think the wife already knows about it and maybe won't bother to deny it or cover it up, but will instead go along with it and say something like "only for a month.." or whatever. i don't know...just an idea. all i know is that she HAS to find out, one way or another.

With all due respect, mind your own business. You can console but don't get activly involved because you'll end up on the shit list. You find out he's cheating and prove it to her and she'll eventually resent you for it. No good deed goes unpunished.

Chances are he was like this before they met.

Either they can work it out and get through it, or they split.

They have to make this decision on their own.

Bruce is right, you'll be resented for any intervention you attempt. Or don't, as it happens. Classic damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

What's his history ... you said he was married before, even if he wasn't, has he been completely faithful while in committed relationships, or has he had a little something-something on the side in the past? Past behavior is an excellent, but not perfect, predictor of future behavior.

"Gee, Good Friend, I really don't know what to tell you" IS an acceptable response.

Or ... keep any discussions you get involved in with her to a discussion of "options" without giving strong recommendations to any of them. They may include "sit down and talk this over with him without fighting about it" or "hiring a PI" or "hiring a divorce attorney" or "hiring a contract killer". She has to figure out what to do, not you.

Like sands through the hourglass....

Um hellooo??!? You just described about 10 paragraphs worth of his cheating....even if it hasn't gotten sexual yet, it's still cheating.

Personally I'd want to kill the other party, so I'd say, um..no.

Dump his sorry ass...doesn't sound like he'll "get" anything else. Of course she can take him back later, once he knows she's serious and it won't be fucking tolerated, even a little bit.

Get pictures, mail them to her hubby, friends, parents, grandparents, employer, etc.

Oh yeah, and I agree, it's their business, stay out of it.

I obviously haven't heard your friend's husband's side (I assure you there are TWO sides to this) but he's not your friend. That isn't intended to suggest that there is any excuse for his flirting.

What I am saying is don't be judge, jury and executioner. Be your friend's friend - be as supportive as you can. She's gonna need it.

And my last bit of advice is to not advise your friend to make a drastic decision - SHE has to take responsibility for whatever choice she makes. Your job, in my opinion, is to help her though whatever decision SHE makes.

She needs validation so heap it on.

Lastly, and off the record, any guy who would flirt on a woman who just had his child ought to be horsewhipped.

He took her out for coffee?

OMFG!! CHEATING!

Give me a break. That's just about the worst case of overreacting I've seen.

She maybe his wife, but that doesn't give her the right to forbid her husband to see his 'friends' unless she has solid evidence of him being unfaithful. Sorry coffee doesn't cut it. Hanging around his arm doesn't cut it.

Most importantly: The guy is being honest and isn't hiding his interaction with the girl. As in there is nothing to hide.

If she loves him and believes he is honest, then she should trust him and no try to control his life or make sure that he never as much as looks at another woman again.

This whole thing is based on nothing but suspicion and insecurity. I'm sorry but the husband isn't the problem. It's your friend.

Married or not married, men will see other women, they will interact with then, they may even have lunch with them. But it all means nothing as long as he loves his wife. Trying to control him will only make him love you less.

The whole thing reminds me of my past relationship where my ex used to give me shit when I HAD to work with a girl I liked in a group project.

My opinion is this lady has a major trust issue. If she doesn't trust her husband she shouldn't stay regardless of whether or not he's actually doing something. Either way they'll both be better off.

She is clearly following and spying on her husband or having others do it for her. If she feels the need to do this, it should be the end.

Let's say for a moment he is cheating on his wife. If she broke it off just for her lack of trust, she's better off because she's not with a cheater and he's better off because he's with someone he obviously likes more.

If he's not cheating, he's better off without here, because he's not with a psycho who can't trust her own husband, which should be the person she trusts the most. She is better off because she will have plenty of time to seek help for her psychological problems and she can seek someone else she might trust more.


It's a mystery to me why they would stay together. I can't understand why they have a television show "change of heart". If my girlfriend told me she wanted to go on that show so we could date other people I'd already have a change of heart. I'd tell her not to let the door hit her on the ass on the way out.

Yeah, you probably have a point there, File. Technically, the friend doesn't know if her husband is cheating on her. I suppose it depends on what is acceptable within the relationship and what is not. And if both parties have differing expectations from that marriage, they are never going to get past it. If they talked about where the boundaries were, then they as a couple would understand what is acceptable and what is not.

My s2b-ex had a Radar-like attitude about cheating. I never cheated in 16 years. One week after she decided we were likely to get divorced, she was in the sack for three days straight, with some guy she just met, halfway across the country.

Ok, I can answer some of the questions:

First, I AM friends with the guy, I've known him about as long as I've known her. He was married before, and since he was in the navy, he was out at sea for six months to a year at a time on a sub. He said he never cheated on his wife during that time, but his wife divorced him because he was never home.

His history: let's just say that before I became friends with him, all of his friends warned me away from him. They said that all he wanted to do was sleep with me. He slept around a lot.

Third: when he and his wife had the conversation about this girl before, he said that he would stop hanging around her, so actually, he IS doing it behind her back.

And I personally think that taking another woman, whom you'd promised to stop hanging around with, for coffee, when you complain to your wife that y'all don't have enough money for the bills, AND let her hang all over you, is WRONG. Whether he's doing the dirty or not. His wife's feelings should be more important to him than this girl. His wife makes sure he knows all of her male friends, and doesn't hang out with them unless he knows about it or is there, because she wants him to know he can trust her. However, he goes out with his friends, some of which include ex-girlfriends, and never invites his wife. I think something fishy is going on, especially since he doesn't want to talk about it.

Sidhe

Your last posts suggest that you have already picked a side. So why ask for suggestions? Coffee is not all that expensive. Oh and it's not "the dirty", it's quite clean last I checked. Just because he slept around a lot in the past doesn't mean he is doing so after marriage.

I think it's abusurd to ask someone not to see another person regarding their relation to the person. As in parents telling their child not to see someone, wife to husband, husband to wife etc.

The man would be a fool if he stoped hanging out with a woman JUST because his wife is insecure and suspicious.

Tell your friend to find a new hobby instead of trying to police her husband.

Also, I remember when they got married...babe, this girl trusted him with her LIFE. No matter what anyone said, she believed in his love absolutely, and said she'd NEVER have to worry about him cheating on her....that was until he hit on her best friend, and her best friend went to her crying and told her. And get this--the best friend said she was scared to tell her because she thought the girl might think it was HER fault.
Here's the deal with that: When the two started dating--no exclusivity--he told my friend that he was interested in HER friend. My friend said..."look, if you want her, we're not exclusive, so hell, ask her yourself." and she told her friend about it. Well, her friend, the one he ended up hitting on, went up to him and said, "Not no, but HELL no." And he said ok.
Well, two years later, he hits on this girl, because, he said, "I wanted to see if she really meant it." and told his wife she should "be glad I got it out of my system." He claimed that he just wanted to see if she'd sleep with him (he'd gone over to this girl's house to repay some money he owed her, then ended up trying to undress her. She had to tell him to leave twice...I know this because I know all these people, and she'd called someone after he left, crying...so it's independently corroberated), and now he was over it....


I mean, come ON! If he'll hit on her best friend, what would keep her from hitting on a girl who hangs on him, has the hair color he admits "always gets hiim into trouble) and has boobs she flashes to the world? (we all know how men love boobs...)

Sidhe

Well now, that changes everything.

I just think it's a shame. He wants her to get rid of all of her friends, but he won't give up this girl...these two used to be so good together....everyone was jealous of them. They were like two trippy peas in a far-out pod, to quote scooby-doo, but now he won't talk to her, doesn't seem to care about how she feels, and seems to have a double standard for their behavoir (for example, he says they don't have enough money for bills, yet he'll buy an $80 wireless keyboard and mouse, which he doesn't need, but when she buys a pack of cigarettes, she's "pissing away money." He just spent $50, AFTER telling her they were out of money, for two marathon LOTR movie tickets....he said it was for THEM, so they could do something together....but she ended up not being able to go because they couldn't get a babysitter....he went by himself, with a bunch of his friends, including two ex girlfriends, and left her behind at home....so much for it being for THEM, something they could do TOGETHER.) He hangs out with his friends at least twice a week, doesn't come home till one or two in the morning, but he begrudges her time with her friends....yet he never invites her anywhere.

They used to not be like that. They were always together, he was very affectionate with her and she with him...they were the perfect couple....then this girl came along....


Sidhe

I'm not gonna touch that.

No pun intended, huh? :D

Sidhe

I think one thing than many people forget when they look at a situation like this is that every person, in his/her own mind, feels justified in their actions. Even when one is doing something they recognize as "wrong," they feel they are doing it in reaction to something which makes it justifiable. The feeling of guilt is what happens when one creates a delicate contruction of justifications which doesnt have the strength to hold itself up.

If you understand the motivation for behavior, it is a lot easier to address that behavior. One thing that happens a lot in relationships is a degrading cycle... some innocent action on one person's part hurts/depresses/angers the other party, so they becomes unhappy/distant/hostile, which breeds negative feelings in the first party, which breeds further negative feelings in the other... ad nauseum. Sometimes the cycle peters out and time heals the wounds, sometimes it cycles out of control and causes permanent damage, and sometimes one person has the insight and courage to step up and address the real problem. This usually starts when someone swallows their pride and offers an apology, and begins really talking about things.

So, what might justify this man's flirting? It might be that he feels (justifyably or otherwise) that his wife is taking him for granted, or that she is taking her problems out on him, or that her attentions are elsewhere, etc. Maybe her depression is making him unhappy, and so he blames her for the fact that he is finding no joy in life, and feels justified looking for it elsewhere. These sorts of things are likely culprits.

So, one possible solution is for her to deal with the depression. Therapy, medication, meditation, yoga... whatever it takes. If she becomes a happy person, she becomes a better mate. Next, she needs to pay him appropriate spousal attention... not just sex, but talking, spending time together, genuine compliments, and the big one... flirting. Yes, she can flirt with her husband! It is one of the most positive kinds of attention a person can receive, and if another woman offers this where the wife doesn't, he'll be drawn to that positive attention.

If that alone does not solve the problem, when the time is right, she should tell her husband, in a non-accusing fashion, that she is jealous of this other girl. Not "threatened," because that wrongly accuses him of being potentially unfaithful, which adds to his justifications pile. He needs to know that she wants that kind of attention, and the fact that he gives it to another woman, and not to her, is troubling, and makes her feel neglected. This will open a helpful dialog, or he will react angrily, meaning that the underlying problem hasn't been exposed yet. Sometimes it is the brutal fact that someone has fallen out of love, and feels trapped in an unrewarding relationship.

There is no universal solution, so milage will always vary.

I can somewhat agree with FnF's observations, but at the same time, if there was a guy who was taking my wife out to coffee, and I saw her hanging on his arm, I would NOT be cool with that. That crosses some boundaries in most healthy relationships.

Please don't take offense at this, but reading your posts is hilarious. It really is.

The whole post reeks of trying to shift ALL the blame on the big breasted scanky hoe. (I for the record find big breasts repulsive.)

Sounds like an "Oh it was all peachy till SHE showed up."

It probably wasn't.
The whole time you act as if your friend behaved perfectly. I'm sorry but had I been in his position I'd have walked out the day my wife started spying on me and looking at my ICQ account.

First of all. Buying cigarettes IS pissing away money. The wireless keyboard is still there, cigarettes would've been gone.

Does your friend work? If not, she can respectably stfu. If she does work, she has every right to be pissed off about idiotic and uncooperative spending on the part of her husband. I don't buy anything over $100 without consulting with my gf.

LOTR - Not HIS fault that they couldn't get a babysitter. Lame that he went alone. Still not 100% his fault.

Oh and the operative part of "ex-girlfriend" is EX.

Just because he hit on a girl who said "Hell NO" does not AT ALL mean that he'll spread the legs of everything that says "Hell YES!". There's a certain degree of a challage to a girl who says "Hell No" but it seems more like another attempt at a crush from the past. It's very likley that he was just 'trying to get it out of his system'. As much as I love my gf I do find myself wondering what 'might have been' and often am curious to know what girls that I was fond of in the past 'really' thought of me.

Oh and "goes out twice a week"? Whoop die doo...
The whole " he begrudges her time with her friends" sounds more like:
Her: You go out so often!
Him: You spend plenty of time with your friends too!
Who's begrudging whom here? Both. Good.
It's not a double standart if both parties are being immature jerks about it.

You're not asking for help though. You came here to trash the guy. You make it sound like his suspicious insecure wife is an angel whom he so horribly mistreats.

Maybe they were always together in the past becasue he didn't have to deal with her being suspicious of him and depressed the whole time? Maybe he spends less time at home because when he is home he gets lectured about "HER". Maybe he hangs out with "HER" because she doesn't lecture him. Maybe your friend no longer is willing to hang from his arm because she's pissed at him for no good reason and thus he's not at all upset about HER hanging from his arm.

There is WAY more to this than you know and than your friend is willing to admit.

And maybe he want's to get away from the kid.:confused:

Well that there is little help for. I doubt the kid did anything to piss the guy off on purpose.

I do not think that: "I just wanted to be away from the kid." is an acceptable excuse for a father - eventhough it did work fine for mine.

You know, I really liked your advice. I can answer a few of the points in there as well, to perhaps give a fuller view of the picture. I've known this couple for going on 8 years or so, and I tend to hear it from both sides....so here goes:


Ok they HAVE talked about it. She told him how him hanging out with this girl made her feel...she found out about this girl when her friend borrowed her computer to check her email. Her husband started talking to her friend, and this girl came up. He said she was "eye candy" for one thing. Also, bear in mind that my friend supported her husband when he quit his job in anticipation of another job that never came through. He was out of work for a year, and they were scraping by. He stayed at home all day long, and didn't look for work, because as he put it, the jobs that were available were "beneath him" ....yet he didn't once help around the house. Then he started school and got a twenty hour a week job at the university. Half his pay goes to child support. When his wife was laid off and had trouble finding a job, he rode her about it like she was some kind of lazy slob..Now that she does have a job (and it's not high paying...even with a college degree, she had trouble finding one)he says she doesn't make enough....she works, keeps the house, does all the chores around the house, takes care of the child, takes care of the pets, does the shopping....all he does is go to school and work, and he picks their daughter up from the babysitter after work and keeps her for three hours until his wife gets home to watch her....he goes out with his friends but never invites her, yet expects her to get rid of her friends because he feels they aren't good enough.
They had the conversation about this girl, and he agreed to not hang out with her anymore. Then she finds out that he's inviting the girl for coffee, instead of his wife, and this girl is on his arm, where his wife should be. When she asked him about it, he said it had nothing to do with her. It has everything to do with her. She's his wife.

Seems to me that he's the one taking his WIFE for granted. I mean, he doesn't help her around the house at all, doesn't keep his promises to her. She adores this man, and she used to spoil him rotten, giving him backrubs, footrubs, making his favorite food, getting him little surprise presents. It was almost disgusting how much she loves him....but then he hit on her best friend, and she just withdrew in on herself after he blew her feelings off concerning that....Now don't get me wrong...she doesn't say that he's the only one at fault here. She knows how difficult her depression can be...but he knew she was on medication for depression when he met her, when he married her. She can't afford her meds right now (she's on 150mg of Zoloft a DAY, and that comes up to around $180 a month) but I also think that his thing with this other woman, the not helping her at all in daily life or around the house, the not being affectionate with her, and the criticism of her just adds to the depressive state she's in. Every time he's mean to her, or criticizes her, or she hears that he's spending time with this girl, or he blows off her feelings, she spirals further down. I'm watching it happen.

Babe, she DOES try to mitigate the depression...she meditates and writes poetry and draws....he's the one ignoring HER, though. She tries like hell to spend time with him. They go out for coffee every day...and I think that's why the coffee with the other girl hurt her so much...she considers doing coffee a "their thing," because that's what they used to do on dates: go have coffee and talk. She tries to flirt with him. I watch her do it...he's always too busy talking with other people on the computer or watching a movie or going out with his friends to respond.

She has talked to him. The first time, she told him how she feels that the attention he pays to this woman should be going to his wife. The time he spends with this woman should be spent with his wife...she basically told him that he was giving all of the good parts of himself to this woman, all of his "quality time" and leaving her with the mean, irritable parts of himself. She told him she missed him. And he told her he'd stop hanging around with this other girl. But he didn't. When she tried to talk to him about the coffee thing, he blew her off and said it had nothing to do with her.

>>I can somewhat agree with FnF's observations, but at the same time, if there was a guy who was taking my wife out to coffee, and I saw her hanging on his arm, I would NOT be cool with that. That crosses some boundaries in most healthy relationships.<<

That's exactly what she told him. She said that this girl had crossed the line when she put her hands on him. I think that the fact that she'd told him months before to tell that girl to keep her hands OFF, and then finds out that he's got her on his arm....that's inappropriate.

She also told her husband that if he didn't tell this girl to back off, that she would, and he said, "that's fine." Well, she did. She found out this girl's icq and sent her a message that said:

"As of now, you will cease all contact with my husband. Your behavior towards him is inappropriate. He is a married man. And keep your hands OFF."

I think the fact that this girl tried to hide her face when she saw my friend's best friend walking up indicates that she's got an ulterior motive towards my friend's husband. She spends all her time between classes with him, spends her lunch with him, goes to coffee with him, and hangs all over him. When she visits him at work, they're in a corner away from everyone else, and she's between him and anyone who wants to get to him. I mean, when his wife showed up to talk to him, she had to MAKE this girl give them privacy, and even then, after she left, the girl showed back up and wanted to know what they had talked about! Even if her husband is totally innocent as far as cheating, this girl is after him. Where he's wrong is this:

He blows off the fact that his association with this woman hurts his wife

He wants his wife to get rid of her friends, yet he doesn't offer to invite her anywhere, and he won't get rid of this woman...I mean, she's depressed, and he's not there for her, doesn't seem to care how she feels, yet he wants her to get rid of the only support network she has....

He should be trying to regain her trust after hitting on her best friend, not taking up with yet ANOTHER female...what freaks my friend out is the fact that this woman has red hair and big boobs, both of which her husband likes. The girl isn't even pretty (I've seen her), which adds insult to injury, but her husband tells everyone that he always ends up getting in trouble with redheads....I mean, what's my friend supposed to think?

She's tried talking to him. She's tried making deals with him...she's tried getting him to tell her how he's feeling....it's like he's being resistant and not wanting to let her in for some reason. She wants things to go back to the way they were, but every time they talk, and he makes promises to her, he breaks them.

He told her the first time that the reason he hung around this girl was because she wasn't stressful, (this was when my friend was going through a very deep period of depression...this was when he started ignoring her, and it just made her depression worse) So my friend made an effort to be more cheerful and fun to be around, even though it was difficult for her, being in the grip of a depressive episode. And she did improve. I saw it. Yet it made no difference. Instead of being there for her when she needed him, he spent his time with this girl. The thing is, he wants HER to change everything about herself, but he thinks that he can do no wrong. Rather than being supportive, he bails to some other girl, then when his wife finds out and gets more upset, he blames it on HER, saying that if she wasn't so stressed all the time, he wouldn't hang out with this girl...how much sense does that make? He avoids her because she's stressed, but she's stressed because he avoids her, spends time with other women, and leaves all the household, child, pet, etc. responsibility for her....Seems to me that if he would be good to her, she would be good to him. But she's not going to expend her energy when all he does is ignore her and never reciprocates. I mean, this woman never gets a break. She's always running, always cleaning, always working....and then she comes home just to be ignored.

God, just thinking about this makes me want to cry. For them both. For what they were, and could be again, if he would just accept his part in all this and stop blaming it all on her.

Sidhe

Oof... your post contains too many thoughts to effectively reply to it all. I'll just say a few things...

Everything is subjective. You are seeing most of this through your friend's eyes, an not her husband's. That doesn't mean you don't see what's happening, it just means that your perspective, like your friend's, is limited. For example, you say that your friend didn't nag her husband to get work when he was out of a job. Well, perhaps she asked him 1-2 times a day how the jubhunt was going... out of genuine curiosity, or just as conversation, trying to be supportive. But that kind of thing can be perceived as nagging, even if it's not intended to be... like asking someone on a diet how much weight they've lost so far. It frustrates the effort.

Just remember that you only see what you see. Your friend will leave out details that seem trivial to her, but they could be huge to the husband. Like, maybe she said something innocently, and obliviously, that cut him to the bone, and this is his inappropriate, immature, but self-justified way of getting back at her. No matter what you think, you do not have all of the key information. Nobody does, not even the wife or the husband. And that is probably a big part of the problem here.

I'll wrap up by egotistically quoting myself from another thread:

>>Sounds like an "Oh it was all peachy till SHE showed up."

Actually, it kinda was. You don't understand. These people are two sides of the same coin....if she were a man, she'd be him, and vice-versa. They were best friends, and EVERYONE was jealous of them.

>>The whole time you act as if your friend behaved perfectly. I'm sorry but had I been in his position I'd have walked out the day my wife started spying on me and looking at my ICQ account.

She never claims that she has no fault in this. As a matter of fact, she makes a point of saying that she knows that her depression can be difficult to deal with, and always asks if we think she's overreacting. When he told her he wanted her to "lighten up" as he put it, she tried, and she did well covering up her depression and not exposing him to it, but it didn't seem to make a difference.


>>First of all. Buying cigarettes IS pissing away money. The wireless keyboard is still there, cigarettes would've been gone.

You sound exactly like him. But he knew she smoked when they got married, and it was never an issue. The point here is that he claims they're broke, but he always has enough money for his toys.

>>Does your friend work? If not, she can respectably stfu. If she does work, she has every right to be pissed off about idiotic and uncooperative spending on the part of her husband. I don't buy anything over $100 without consulting with my gf.

Yes, she works, and at a very stressful job that she hates. She took it because she had to take what she could get, and she's even looking for something better while she's at this job. Whereas her husband turned down work because it was "beneath him"--yes, he said that, to me, as a matter of fact-- while she was working in a dangerous job while PREGNANT (she worked until her ninth month, and he never lifted a finger to help her). Her husband doesn't make enough money for the bills, so she's responsible for most of them. They go in together on rent, but she usually pays the utilities. The only money she spends on herself is for cigarettes.

>>LOTR - Not HIS fault that they couldn't get a babysitter. Lame that he went alone. Still not 100% his fault.

The point there is that he said he spent money they didn't have so that they could do something TOGETHER. But it wasn't for THEM....it was for HIM. He could've given a shit less that she wasn't able to go. And he didn't say, "bring the baby, so we can do this together."


>>Just because he hit on a girl who said "Hell NO" does not AT ALL mean that he'll spread the legs of everything that says "Hell YES!". There's a certain degree of a challage to a girl who says "Hell No" but it seems more like another attempt at a crush from the past. It's very likley that he was just 'trying to get it out of his system'. As much as I love my gf I do find myself wondering what 'might have been' and often am curious to know what girls that I was fond of in the past 'really' thought of me.

Oh, come ON....if your wife hit on your best friend and tried to undress him after he'd told her "Not no, but HELL no" would you just blow it off? I mean, hitting on a stranger is bad enough, but hitting on your wife's best friend is a slap in the face, because there's no way in hell it isn't going to get back to her, and you know it. The point is that he didn't give a flying flock how it would affect his wife when it did, and he blew off her feelings when she confronted him about it. And his past proves that he WILL sleep with a woman if she offers.


>>Oh and "goes out twice a week"? Whoop die doo...
The whole " he begrudges her time with her friends" sounds more like:
Her: You go out so often!
Him: You spend plenty of time with your friends too!
Who's begrudging whom here? Both. Good.
It's not a double standart if both parties are being immature jerks about it.

He goes out twice a week and stays out till three in the morning. She sees her friends maybe once a month. Her best friend stays away because she doesn't want anything to do with the man who tried to take her clothes off, and the rest of them stay away because they don't want to cause her trouble, since he's a jerk when they're there. And she says absolutely nothing about him going out. She gives him a lot of freedom. All she asks is that if he's going to be gone when she gets home, to leave her a note so she'll know where he is and when he'll be home so she won't worry. He never does.

>>You're not asking for help though. You came here to trash the guy. You make it sound like his suspicious insecure wife is an angel whom he so horribly mistreats.

Let's look at the facts:

He hit on her best friend, tried to take her clothes off, then blew off the fact that his wife was hurt about it.

He hangs out with another girl, lets her hang all over him, while he ignores his wife and blows off her feelings about him spending time with another woman instead of her.

He spends money on whatever he wants, but begrudges her her only vice.

He makes promises he never keeps, like when he promised to help around the house when she got a job. Babe, that grass hasn't been mowed in six months. They could shoot wild kingdom in their front yard. He keeps saying he'll do it, but always finds an excuse not to.

Instead of being there for his wife, like she was for him when things went wrong in his life, he rolls his eyes when she tries to talk to him, ignores her when she wants to spend time with him, doesn't help her around the house, wants her to get rid of her friends, but doesn't give her anything as a replacement, like spending more time with her.

>>Maybe they were always together in the past becasue he didn't have to deal with her being suspicious of him and depressed the whole time? Maybe he spends less time at home because when he is home he gets lectured about "HER". Maybe he hangs out with "HER" because she doesn't lecture him. Maybe your friend no longer is willing to hang from his arm because she's pissed at him for no good reason and thus he's not at all upset about HER hanging from his arm.

She never had a reason to be suspicious until he hit on her best friend. She defended him against people who knew him a lot better than she did, and warned her about his habits...She doesn't lecture him. She tries to talk to him to find out why he's doing these things. And honey, my friend would LOVE to hang on his arm again...that's how they always used to walk...

I'm dead in the middle of this. I hear it from both of them. I'm friends with both of them. And let me tell you...she's not an angel, and doesn't claim to be. But she loves him with all her heart, and is trying her damndest to work this out. He isn't. He doesn't think he's wrong for his spending habits, hanging out with his friends while telling her to get rid of hers, and hitting on her best friend (he never apologized for that, never acknowledged that she had a right to be hurt over it. He doesn't think he was in the wrong for trying to take her best friend's clothes off), and hanging out with other women. He wants it all his way, and he told me straight out "she's going to have a hard time convincing me I need to change anything."

>>There is WAY more to this than you know and than your friend is willing to admit.

I'm merely relaying what I see and what I'm told (by both of them). The thing is, whenever she does something to please him, he always wants more. First, he wanted her to lighten up, so she did. Didn't do any good. She cut back on smoking so as not to spend more money, didn't do any good...he still spends money on toys. From what he said before he bought the LOTR tickets, they were out of money. Yet he spent $50 on MOVIE TICKETS, and while he was there, bought a LOTR flilm cell souvenir, which had to have cost $20 at the least. That's a useless item, and like all his other toys, he'll probably throw it in the storage room and forget he has it. I think he needs to take responsibility for HIS actions, and how they influence hers. Why should she be the one to make all the changes if he's not willing to compromise and make changes as well? I mean, if you're clinically depressed, do you think that being ignored, treated like a fool, criticized all the time and blown off is going to IMPROVE your condition? I think if he'd show that he loves her, rather than just saying it, it would go a long way in helping her to trust him again. Everything he does screams "I hold you in contempt"....and you're trying to blame it on HER??

Sidhe

If everything you're saying is true and for the most part impartial, then for whatever reason, this friend and her husband are on the road to Divorceville... and the husband has a lead foot.

Problems, like objects, have inertia. If the process of slowing down begins too late, the collision with the consequences is ineviable. When things reach a certain stage, which only your friend can identify-- and it may have already happened-- she'll need to start answering some very difficult questions. For instance, if the marraige will always be like it is now, would divorce actually be better?

My advice now, as others have suggested, is to be a good listener, and nothing more. Under any circumstances, don't try to steer her to any conclusions or actions, no matter how strongly you feel. These decisions are huge and life-altering, and no matter how close a friend she is, once it gets down to hard decision-making, outside advice is pollution. Listening good, talking bad.

I don't know why you made a pretext about asking for advice, when it's obvious you already take the woman's side. (typical for women).

I gave some sound and intelligent advice for someone who genuinely wanted advice, but it seems like all you've been doing is trying to convince us that a man who is concerned for his wife's health is wrong by having coffee with another person who happens to be a female. If my wife were ever to tell me who I would or wouldn't hang out with, she'd be my ex-wife very quickly. And if she actually was psycho enough to approach a friend of mine and act like an idiot (yes your "friend" acted like an idiot), she'd be out on her ass in a heartbeat.

If she doesn't trust him, she should leave. If she does, than act like a normal person and don't spaz out because he has coffee with someone. If he hit on someone in the past it doesn't matter. Maybe he was drunk? In the end it doesn't matter if he looks at the menu, or even smells the food as long as he doesn't order anything. Heck, he could even order it as long as he doesn't eat it.

Undertoad: I didn't cheat on my ex-wife either, but while we were separated she started sleeping with some other guy immediately (we were still married) and said it was "none of my business" when I asked why she didn't tell me about it. And after she cheated on me (if you have sex while you're still married it's cheating even if you're separated) she said, "You probably cheated anyway".

In the end we're both better off. She has a house, car, appliances, and other stuff I gave her and a new husband, and I am free of her. I'm also getting married to a much more beautiful, young, kind-hearted, trusting, and pleasant woman in less than 2 months. The planning is expensive and stressful, (Planning a wedding in Vietnam is difficult and isn't cheap) but I'm much happier and I'm pretty sure my ex-wife is happier too.

Dude, I offered to get you that hooker...

>>I gave some sound and intelligent advice for someone who genuinely wanted advice, but it seems like all you've been doing is trying to convince us that a man who is concerned for his wife's health is wrong by having coffee with another person who happens to be a female.

First of all, I told you that I thought your advice was good. I also said that she'd tried a lot of it. She's still trying.

He is having coffee with a woman he promised to stop hanging around with, AFTER his wife told him that it made her uncomfortable. A woman who, whether he has designs or not, is definitely after him.

>>If she doesn't trust him, she should leave. If she does, than act like a normal person and don't spaz out because he has coffee with someone. If he hit on someone in the past it doesn't matter. Maybe he was drunk? In the end it doesn't matter if he looks at the menu, or even smells the food as long as he doesn't order anything. Heck, he could even order it as long as he doesn't eat it.

He doesn't drink at ALL. He hit on his wife's best friend a year after they got married. It's one thing to look at the menu, it's another thing to wear the food on your arm.

I'm not choosing sides. I'm just reporting what I see and what they both tell me. I'm sorry, though, it IS wrong to choose another woman over your wife, which is, in effect, what he's doing, because his "friendship" with this girl seems to be more important than his relationship with his wife. Instead of indicating that her concerns are important to him, he's basically saying that they mean nothing to him.

She's not telling him he can't have female friends. He has a lot of female friends who don't bother her at all. As a matter of fact, because of his past, he's got an assload of female friends. But they don't hang on him and spend every spare moment with him. They don't ask him to relay to them private conversations that his wife has had with him. They don't hide their faces when they see his wife's friends. She's asking him to stop seeing a woman who obviously has designs on him and who makes her uncomfortable. And he'd told her he would...then saw her behind his wife's back. You can't possibly think that's right. I don't hear very many people saying he's at any kind of fault. In fact it seems that people are feeling sorry for him, when HE'S the one who's breaking his promises to HER.

He claimed that he hung around with this girl because his wife wouldn't loosen up, but when she did, and after he agreed to stop hanging out with this girl, HE DIDN'T. The issue is that he doesn't care enough about his wife's feelings to stop doing something that makes her uncomfortable and is obviously causing her severe emotional distress. It's about being there for the person you claim to love. It's about showing that you love them by keeping your promises. A lot of you seem to think it's ok that a married man hit on his wife's best friend, ok that he spends time with a woman he promised to stop seeing...I don't understand that. It's not ok for a married person to be touchy-feely with someone else, especially if they know it bothers their SO.

I have to agree with OnyxCougar. He's out of line, but this woman is out of line just as much. Her behavior with another woman's husband is inappropriate. I have a lot of male friends, but not once have I hung on them. I'm married, and I don't think that a married person should be that familiar with someone other than their SO. I'm a firm believer in "to love and cherish, for richer or poorer, in sickness and health, forsaking all others, till death do you part." Those aren't just words. They mean something.

I haven't given her any advice, but she does read these posts. They give her something to think about and consider, and she thanks you all for the ideas you're putting forth.


Sidhe

lady s,

i confess to not reading your last two posts, since you have been repeating yourself in lengthy fashion.....repeatedly.

so...from where i jumped ahead....

here's the deal: he is immature, and attempting to escape from the misery in his life. she's depressed, and in his mind represents whats wrong with his life. she's like an anchor around his neck. he just wants to be a boy again. and he will be. the red head strokes his ego, and talks about things that carry no emotional baggage for him. its fantasy.

and you can bet that she's playing his skin flute. he would have porked the friend too...count on it.

he's on the way out, and she needs to realize it quickly, and start getting over him. this jealousy/trust/control spiral will not get better....it may lapse for periods of time, but as i said in my initial response.....better now than later.

one question, tho......how much weight has your friend gained since the wedding?

i sympathize with your friend and i don't think she is overreacting. if my husband hit on one of my friends and then i found out he was hanging out with another women and had her arm around his, i'd be very upset and rightfully so. some of the guys on here are saying that's innocent. oh, please. she's "eye candy" to him, like he says and she's got the red hair and big chest that he likes, yeah, i bet it's innocent. my husband doesn't hang around any other woman. he always asks me if i want to go with him when he visits his friends and he even told me his e-mail password...he has nothing to hide and after reading about this girl's asshole husband, i am really really grateful to have such a good one. the jerk she's with reminds me of my first husband-and he cheated a lot and admitted to it all AFTER i left him.

lumberjim:

She hasn't gained any weight since they've been married. She's always weighed between 100-112 lbs. This other girl is kinda chunky, though.

Sidhe

And btw, the wife's 5'8", so that makes her slender.

Sidhe

JUST CHECKING

with as shitty as he is treating her, and given the depression that can often lead to binge eating and self loathing, i figured she might have porked up a bit. not that that would be justification for him to treat her wrong.

Nah...when she gets depressed, she stops eating and ends up losing weight. She probably doesn't weigh a hundred pounds right now.

Sidhe

well, maybe THAT'S it....is he a "chubby chaser"?

Not by history. Just a guy who gets in trouble with redheads with big boobs, by his own admission. That's why she's so upset and worried. Then again, I look at it this way...she was thin when he married her....

Sidhe

Well, four years is a long time to be married.

Well, he DID agree to the "til death do us part" part of the wedding ceremony, and isn't marriage SUPPOSED to be forever? They dated for almost three years before they got married, and they'd known each other for three years before that.

Sidhe

Nah. That's rare.

Fuck that dumb shit. What's good for the goose and all that...:mad:

Quote:

these two used to be so good together....everyone was jealous of them. They were like two trippy peas in a far-out pod, to quote scooby-doo, but now he won't talk to her, doesn't seem to care about how she feels, and seems to have a double standard for their behavoir (for example, he says they don't have enough money for bills, yet he'll buy an $80 wireless keyboard and mouse, which he doesn't need, but when she buys a pack of cigarettes, she's "pissing away money." He just spent $50, AFTER telling her they were out of money, for two marathon LOTR movie tickets....he said it was for THEM, so they could do something together....but she ended up not being able to go because they couldn't get a babysitter....he went by himself, with a bunch of his friends, including two ex girlfriends, and left her behind at home....so much for it being for THEM, something they could do TOGETHER.) He hangs out with his friends at least twice a week, doesn't come home till one or two in the morning, but he begrudges her time with her friends....yet he never invites her anywhere.

Damn, this is madness. I'd have to leave him...or I'd be on his ass everyday about that shit.

Well, ultimately, it's her choice, and having a kid certainly doesn't make things any easier. I think I'd have to agree with those that have said to just be there for your friend, whatever decision she decides to make.

Yeah....what SHE said!!! :D

Especially about the proposition..."Oh, I just wanted to get it out of my system". Bitch, you should have done that B.E.F.O.R.E. you decided to get married!!!

Sounds like he just wants to get out of the marriage because he no longer wants to deal with a woman with depression. If that's the case, then IMO, he's a goddamned coward and a punk. :rar::rar::rar:

The urge here for everyone is to label one party or the other "good" or "bad" -- "at fault" or "not at fault" -- and then to assume that if one is one, then t'other is t'other.

Did we not learn from McCartney and Wonder?

There is good and bad in everyone.

We learn to live, we learn to give each other what we need to survive.

Together alive! Everybody now!

Rho, that would be a great name for an Aretha Franklin song. :band:

Precisely. They can say that all they damn well want to, but let that shoe be on the other foot: let their woman be seen hanging all over some other man in a "more than friendly" way, having coffee AND the man is on her ICQ (read PRIVATE MESSAGE) list!?!? I don't think any man would be considered human if he didn't react to that, even in a mild way. He doesn't have to throw a jealous fit, but to be 100% cool with that...sorry, I don't believe that for a second. :angry:

Her main reason for asking me to post this was to see if she was overreacting, or if other people actually saw what she saw. She said that sometimes, when she's depressed, she overreacts, and she didn't want this to be one of those times, since she's trying not to be overly influenced by her depression in this. She wrote him a letter a couple of days ago, telling him how she feels and that she wants to work things out, and they're supposed to talk about it tonight when she gets home from work. We'll keep y'all posted, and she sincerely thanks everyone for their insights and advice. She says that at least now, she knows she's not just being paranoid, if other people see it too.

Sidhe

Reply to Hot Pastrami:

>>Everything is subjective. You are seeing most of this through your friend's eyes, an not her husband's. That doesn't mean you don't see what's happening, it just means that your perspective, like your friend's, is limited. For example, you say that your friend didn't nag her husband to get work when he was out of a job. Well, perhaps she asked him 1-2 times a day how the jubhunt was going... out of genuine curiosity, or just as conversation, trying to be supportive. But that kind of thing can be perceived as nagging, even if it's not intended to be... like asking someone on a diet how much weight they've lost so far. It frustrates the effort.


I'm sorry I missed this the first time...It's a lot of good advice. As far as the work, she made an effort to let him do it on his own, because she knows how men are about being the breadwinner. Every now and then she'd ask him about the jobhunt, but people in her family are naggy, and she didn't want to be that way, so she kept quiet. WE used to ask him if he'd found anything, but she rarely did. I think that's part of her problem: She's so scared of being seen as a nag that she doesn't push him to do anything. If she asks him to take out the trash and he doesn't, she does it herself. If she asks him to bathe the baby while she's at work, and he doesn't, she does it herself, that kind of thing, because she doesn't want to hurt his feelings.


>>Just remember that you only see what you see. Your friend will leave out details that seem trivial to her, but they could be huge to the husband. Like, maybe she said something innocently, and obliviously, that cut him to the bone, and this is his inappropriate, immature, but self-justified way of getting back at her. No matter what you think, you do not have all of the key information. Nobody does, not even the wife or the husband. And that is probably a big part of the problem here.


No doubt there is something that he perceives to be so aggravating that he's behaving like this. But he won't talk to her, so what can she do?



>>I'll wrap up by egotistically quoting myself from another thread:
[/b][/quote]


I agree completely with that sentiment. Matter of fact, most of those things she's already told him. She believes that a couple can be happy if they put the other first always. And I think that's actually caused her trouble, insofar as she never makes him take responsibility because she doesn't want to sound like a nag (and that's a direct quote from her), she doesn't want to make him feel like less of a man, and she doesn't want to hurt his feelings. If he'd reciprocate with that, I think there wouldn't be the problems there are now...She has the absolute love for him, believe me, and she had the absolute respect until he propositioned her best friend and started letting this girl hang all over him....

But I do think your advice is really good, and so does she. It reinforces the beliefs she already holds.

Sidhe

To Radar and FnF:

With all due respect, you guys seem a little bitter. I'm trying to be as objective in reporting the facts as possible. I'm not taking her side because she's female, or because she's my friend. I'm taking her side because I agree with her assessment of the situation, because I know the history of both, and because I've heard it from both sides. I also think, that no matter what the husband's intent, the girl is after him, and I think it's wrong that he blows his wife's feelings off and continues to see this girl, when his wife is trying very hard to work things out. I'm not saying he's cheating. I'm just reporting the facts that he does not dispute. Therefore, my reporting, according to them both, is accurate.

Sidhe

Yikes! 5'8" and 100-112 lbs isn't slender, it's anorexic. I have a 5'1" tall friend who is skinny at 100 lbs, and at 5'6" I look best at 135 lbs.

Sounds like your friend has a lot worse problems than whether her hubby is a hound dog. She's heading for a heart attack!

For the record, this couple needs professional counseling, not advice from friends or a message board. They're not going to solve anything by listening to their friends, as their world views and expectations are so out of sync.

*grins* She's always been that thin...she eats anything she wants (pizza, sweets, you name it) and never gains weight. She just happens to be blessed with a metabolism that most people would kill for. Not to mention that she's always on the go...She doesn't starve herself or anything. I don't think she could gain a lot of weight if she TRIED.

Sidhe

update on the letter she wrote him:

She gave it to him three days ago, and for three days he's been PROMISING to read it. He hasn't yet.

Sidhe

Ugh... The Letter. Writing a concerned letter to a loved one is akin to saying "I can't talk to you, so this is the only way to tell you how I feel." I'm not saying that it isn't appropriate, just that it sends a very specific message. Of course the message attached to failing to read the letter is that he doesn't want to hear her concerns, regardless of the medium.

Suffice it to say, if my wife wrote me a letter to address some issue she had with me, enormous red warning lights would be flashing. If I was in such a state that I refused to read it, I would be pretty sure that things were degraded to a point where repairs were unlikely.

Maybe she needs to sit him down, tell him to be silent and listen without interruption, open the letter, and read it aloud to him. It lets her share her carefully worded thoughts, and gives him a chance to respond.

Of course I'm slightly drunk at the moment (hence the slurring), so keep that in mind as you consider heeding my advice.

To 99 1/4% pure:

Counseling costs money, which they don't have enough of to spend on anything but necessities and bills....I doubt he'd go to counseling if they had the money...he'd probably just say it was "pissing away money..." Besides, he's big on personal privacy, and so is she. She'd probably go...counseling doesn't scare her. She was in counseling about six years ago, which was how she found out she was clinically depressed and got put on Zoloft. However, I don't think he'd go, what with how private he is about his life, and how closely he keeps his feelings guarded. I doubt he'd talk to a stranger. I'm just referring to what I know of them both in the years we've been friends, though. I could be wrong.

Sidhe

Sorry...I meant 99 44/100% pure....*grins*:D

To Hot Pastrami:

The reason she wrote him the letter (or email, rather) is because he rolls his eyes at her whenever she tries to talk to him, or he gives her this LOOK. He usually just tunes her out...she wanted to be able to get it all out without getting any of those reactions. If he has to read it, he can't tune it out. Also, she had a lot she wanted to say, and didn't want to get sidetracked in the middle of it. She figured if there was a particular point he wanted to address concerning what she said, he'd be able to refer to the letter, and they could stay on track that way. It was meant to be an aid to conversation, not a replacement for it.

Sidhe

Has she tried pointed questions? For instance:

Do you love me?

(Assuming he answers yes) Do you want me to be happy?

(Assuming he answers yes again) Then why do you continue to spend time with this girl when it so clearly makes me unhappy?

If his answer is something like "You're making a big deal out of nothing," she needs to ask the question again. Why does he do something to make his wife, who he loves, and who he wants to be happy, unhappy? It DOES matter.

It is OK for her to admit jealousy. It is OK for her to mention that he is her husband, and therefore ALL HERS. That's what he promised at the wedding. It won't be productive to accuse him of cheating, but it may make him more aware of her feelings if she tells him that she feels he's been being inconsiderate and disrespectful of his beloved wife.

I hope that she had the forethought to make her letter communicate her love and concern as much as her suspicions and worries.

Damn, I'm really drunk now, I'd better hit the sack. G'nite.

I don't know...the more I look at it, the more it seems that the hitting on the best friend just screwed everything up, and things have been askew ever since. The fact that he never apologized (apologizing isn't the same thing as saying "I'm sorry." "I'm sorry" means "I feel bad about what I did." "I apologize" means "I acknowledge that what I did hurt you." He hasn't done either) engendered a hurt in her that never went away. I think it actually kick-started her depression up again. And now all this with this girl after he'd agreed to stop hanging around with her....

Basically what I see is that he hurt her, and she went into her shell, so he pulled away or whatever, which made her go deeper into her shell because she didn't feel that she could turn to him with her fears and things that made her upset....you have to be able to talk to the person who's supposed to love you more than anyone else, but she can't do that. Whenever she tries, she gets hurt more. I think that was the main reason for writing the email. She didn't want to get hurt again by seeing him roll his eyes or give her that look or tune her out...I understand that. Plus, lately, whenever she talks to him, he's begun to patronize her, which he never, ever did before, and that makes her feel bad, and she ends up getting emotional, and she doesn't want to get emotional when they talk. Getting emotional is contemptible as far as he's concerned. (For anyone who's into astrology, he's a Capricorn, she's a Taurus...that should explain a lot as far as how they view getting emotional.)

It's easy for all of us to take one side or the other....I've tried my best not to, tried to just "report the facts" so to speak. But when you're in that position, the position of feeling like you're losing the person you love more than anyone except your child, it's not that easy tso stay unbiased. All you know is that you're hurting and you don't know what to do to fix it. That's where she's coming from. She had a life she loved, and a man she loved, and when they had their child, it all came together....then the fiasco with the best friend, then the redhead happened, and she feels like her world is falling apart. It's very hard to deal on the one hand with depression, trying to come out of it, and on the other hand, a husband that is helping to fuel that depression, then using it as an excuse to 1.)ignore her (which is the worst thing he could do when she's depressed. She needs to know she can turn to him, not be afraid to turn to him) and 2.)spend time with another woman.

Her husband has NEVER been like this with her. He's always been good to her, for the most part making her happy....now, over the course of a year, he's just done a 180 emotionally, on her, and she's having a hard time figuring out how to handle it.

She's not anorexic. She's not a nag. She's not a shopaholic. She's not a bitch. I'm not saying she's an angel, but dammit, she spoiled that man rotten and treated him the way most men would LOVE to be treated, and he can't even be there for her when she needs him??


She's trying her damndest. He's not. That's one of the reasons I'm behind her. Because she's trying. She's not retaliating by hanging out with other guys to make him jealous. She's not bitching at him about it. She's trying to talk to him about how she feels.

Oh, btw, in reference to an earlier post. She was NOT snooping through his ICQ. She was sitting with her daughter at his computer at work where he said she could sit, while he was working on some other computers. she saw a flashing name she didn't recognize, and looked it up later, and it was this girl. This girl even has a message to him on her ICQ page. Now THAT'S inappropriate. She doesn't spy on him. She didn't even know about this girl until he started talking about it with one of her friends, the one who told her about it. Now considering that this friend was one of the ones that helped them get together, the information-passing was just a heads-up, not an "I'm going to stir up shit," because this friend knows his history, too.



Sidhe