1/12/2004: Civet cat kill
 

http://cellar.org/2004/civetcatkill.jpg

If it's an animal pic, and it's not Friday, it's not gonna be good. And this is not good. This is part of the effort to prevent the spread of SARS in China; they're killing all the civet cats that were expected to become food. They think there might be a disease connection.

It looks like this is not the normal way of killing them; this one tried to escape, says the caption, and so it wound up getting a sudden death by bludgeoning.

Weird fact of the day, then: historically, a lot of perfume has been produced using the "skunk-like spray" of the civet cat. This gunk was actually collected from little sacs under the cats' tails. You could say "ewwwww" and try another brand, but that one might be made from the peri-anal glands of the beaver, or "ambergris" which is basically whale vomit. But nowadays, apparently the animal-derived scents have man-made chemical reproductions which are cheaper to produce. Leave the cats and their poor little glands alone.

Gee honey, you smell amazingly like whale vomit tonight.

I LIKE it!

:)

Hasn't one of the basic problems been one of hygiene? A friend came back from that part of the world in September and noted that the 'wipe with one hand, eat with the other' ethic is still fairly common.
On top of that, there are just LOTS AND LOTS of people, which, even under the best of circumstances (which China is not), leads to large-scale spread of disease.

The chemically synthesized perfumes often contain chemicals that are considered toxic. Better not to wear any of it.

I read that SARS started with the cooks that prepared these civet cats.
If you want to smell good use vanilla extract.

Yeah, the real stuff and not the fake vanilla.

Killing the civet cats has really bothered me. All these critters, I read something like 10,000 to be killed, are kept in lousy conditions just because people want to eat exotic meat. Who the heck needs to eat a civet cat? Does anyone know whether these are wild caught animals?

or shower more than once a week..... (Ba-dum-dum-cha!)

Do you do everthing the hard way?:)

As an unspoken rule, founded on courtesy, nobody uses perfumes in the restrictive confines of a warship but one girl tried to circumvent this by wearing a vanilla based scent.
We were on station for four and a half months.
Vanilla, VANILLA! ...... !!!!!SERENITY NOW

You would think that the same rule should apply in offices and especially in hospitals. I hate the perfume wearers! I don't want to smell you 3' away.

I use cedarwood oil from time to time. Very subtle and very natural.

Definately a case for Orwells' Animal Farm...

Do we know these are perfume civets and not coffee-cherry civets?

When I want that fresh-brewed flavor in the morning, I reach for Civet Cat (tm)!

Give me a fucking break. Go eat a cow. Or some poultry. Those are all kept in pristine conditions! No, wait, they're not. Who gives a shit if it's a cat? Dead is dead. A life is a life. I don't care if it's a pig or a parrot. Why is one tear-worthy and the other is super-size worthy?

Besides, who gives a shit if it's "wild caught" or not? So it's fine if they eat a cat if it's "farmed", but not if it's wild? God damn people annoy me.

Quzah.

Yes, to me farmed raised is different than wild caught. Wild caught kept in tiny cages is worse than wild caught that is killed immediately.

I don't care if you like my view or not so ranting at me doesn't help anything.

Ignore the part you don't want to comment on. It's ok, it happens all the time. Eat your cow, cry about your cats, and I'll be over here mocking you for your hypocrisy.

Quzah.

You think you're joking.

http://www.ravensbrew.com/NewFiles/kopiluwak.html

http://www.ravensbrew.com/media/kopiluwakmovie.gif

Just ignore quzah. He's got a condition known as "vegetarian rage". Basically, the vegetarian experiences dissatisfaction and cravings due to the lack of meat in his diet. Unable, according to his moral code, to satisfy these cravings and often disgusted at himself for feeling them, the vegetarian becomes frustrated, tense, and angry. He finds a target for his frustrations by displacing his shame in his own cravings into anger at meat-eaters for satisfying theirs.

Unfortunately, there is no cure for this condition. Force-feeding or tricking the vegetarian into eating meat satisfies the cravings temporarily, but it only makes the vegetarian feel MORE ashamed of himself (to the point of suicide in extreme cases), and it redoubles his rage when the meat wears off.

They oughta make a patch for that.


Oh no! I shouldn't have said that. Now we'll all be getting spam for meat patches!

Spam patches?

It IS sticky meat.

And gross....just utterly gross.

There's a huge difference. "Wild caught" animals are part of the ecosystem. You know, the web of life, where everything is connected. You tamper with one area of the web enough by over fishing or whatever, and the whole web starts to fall apart. But with farm grown, you have a meat supply that is isolated from the web of life. You can eat to your heart's content without having such a huge impact.

Sure, you have industrial type waste to deal with when you have so much manure like they have in beef or pork feed lots, but it's not as bad as overfishing and causing an entire species to almost go extinct.

Big difference. (Although admittedly not to the creature being eaten. The creature being eaten would probably rather be wild, not farmed.)

You apparently suffer from the same condition as Beletseri; blatant stupidity. I'll explain further, below. I'll try and use small words for you. No, it's no trouble, really.

You, like russotto, have apparently glossed over the entire point of the message. Yes, I know, he's trolling, but I'll humor him. Once more, in small words:

A life is a life. Dead is dead.

Was that simple enough for the three of you? Go on, ignore this point one more time: Who cares what type of animal it is? It is still dead. Why is it somehow "ok" for Beletseri to feel bad for a cat getting killed, but to be insensed to a cow suffering the same fate?

Oh yeah, sorry. I just must be suffering from "vegetarian rage". I'm so sorry that I'm the only fucking person here who understands the concept of an animal dying.

Dead is dead. Stupid is stupid. See the point? No, of course you won't. I'd say it's ignorance, but at this point, it can't be. I've illustrated the point, what, three times now in this single thread?

So one last time: Cat = tears, cow = hungry, why again? Yeah. I'm the one who's got their thinking screwed around backwards. Stupid me. What was I thinking?

Quzah.

I think you need to stop breathing because with every breath you run the risk of breathing in a bug and killing it. A life is a life after all.

Things die all the time, some day so will you. That's the way it is. How we raise them, hunt them, kill them and eat them says something about us and our humanity but life lives on life and we all have our roles in the circle.

Hello again hypocrite. Again you breeze by the point. Let me quote you once more:
The question I keep asking, and you keep ignoring, is: why? Why does it bother you when cats are killed, but not when say, chickens are killed?

No, go on, ignore it again. You're good at that.

And for the record, never in my life have I breathed in a bug. Not sure where you hang out, but usually huge clouds of insects don't swarm about my face and head. Perhaps you should see a doctor, or hygienist or something about that.

Quzah.

I already answered that question. It bothers me because I suspect that they are wild caught and held in small cages indefinately until killed.

Whether it makes sense to you or not makes no difference to me. Wild animals have experience a life of their own making and have, for lack of a better word, expectations of freedom based on their previous existence. It isn't the killing that bothers me so much (for example with hunting), it is the mass rounding up of these animals.

If you had ever experienced the difference between a wild mouse and a lab mouse you might understand what I mean. Animals bred in captivity are different than wild ones. The wild animal when caged is totally stressed and frantic and then over time, despondent. The domestic animal in a cage is at home because that is what it knows.

It isn't the death that is a problem to me, it is the prolonged suffering. And btw, I buy grass-fed beef and free range chicken and their eggs so I am not being hypocritical.

As a side note:
It always surprises me when someone who proclaims a love of animals is so hateful to humans and then expects to be taken seriously enough to answer. That comment is just to say that I don't think your behavior deserves an answer but I have given you one anyway. If it isn't to your liking, tough.

Oh and about the bug thing, you have little worms living in your eyelashes and I bet some fall off on occasion and you do breath them in. You probably kill some every time you take a shower too. Are you careful when you walk not to step on a bug? What if you get a cockroach or mouse invasion into your house?

These are all things that Jains have considered long before you. They wear masks over their noses and mouths just to avoid the possibility of taking a life of an insect. They don't walk around very fast either.

I think you are the hypocrite if you don't at least take on the precautions that they take.

Nah - first, I cry no tears over a civit that gets killed for food, or a cow. Now if it was MY cow, yes, and HAVE. It's my cat, YES.

It comes down to this - if I know and like the individual animal, yes, if I don't, I don't really care. And Yes, I've cried while butchering a steer - ate it anyway. It's like one of my friends - he always named the spring lambs "Lambchop" - to remind his kids where those lambchops come from. I've had beef in the freezer labeled things like "ted" and "Bill"

One day, there was a really annoying animal rights protester here in NYC who was making a pain in the ass out of herself to EVERYONE on the street. I stopped, listened to her, and very calmly and quietly said "You're right, animals do have the same rights as humans. I hunt down and kill animals tha piss me off. " Then I smiled, and let that comment sink in.... Took about 10 seconds for her to realize what I said - the look on her face was PRICELESS as she slowly backed away :D - they don't have an evil grin that I can find ...

So it's fine to be dead, but not fine to be without freedom? But, it's OK to be without freedom, if you have never known it? *shakes head* Whatever.

It is to laugh. You do realize that "free range" chickens means only one thing: There has to be some kind of door way in their pen to where they can get outside. This is to say, and often is the case, I can have a barn, with 5000 chickens in it, and as long as there is a door way, say 12 inches, by 12 inches, to a pen outside that is, say three feet by three feet, that my chickens can be labeled as "free range". Yes that is how the free range label works. That is a perfectly valid example of "free range" chickens.

As for grass fed beef, what's that for, so you don't get mad cow? "Farmed" cattle are hardly treated well. You're only trying to fool yourself if you think otherwise. You're an amusing fellow. Pathetic in your own right, but amusing for all the wrong reasons.

Oh, and don't think you're being educational or something about the Jains. I've heard of them years and years ago. The point is, I do what I'm able. You do what you feel like, what lets you sleep easier. I don't eat any animal products because I don't have to. I don't kill anything if at all humanly possible. Yes, I watch where I walk. No, I don't ever kill bugs in my house. No, I don't have mice in my house, never have. I don't kill spiders, mosquitoes, etc. It's just me. I personally don't care what you eat or why you eat it.

I really don't care what you do. But don't be surprised when I pop back up with a comment or two on how stupid your ideals are, or how hypocritical you are.

Quzah.

Well at least you admit to your hypocrisy.

What amuses me the most is how all of you "meat eaters" think you're all bad ass by "sticking it to the protesters". It's your inaleianable right to eat whatever you want because you're macho. You're a real tough guy. Unless you have to slaughter it, and it was yours, then you cry like a bitch, and then eat it.

You're right, no one should give a shit about anything they eat. Oh, until it's got some disease. Then panic. Fucking morons.

Quzah.

Yeah, and eating no meat will keep you from getting some food borne disease, just like all those Hepatitis infected folks from a month or two ago who ate green onions.

Hipocrisy? Nope. It's the difference between an animal I know, and one I don't. I don't cry over people I don't know either.

I'll put it this way - Family first, then friends, then people/animals I know, then everything else

Civet cat kill
 

It has to be the same reaction in India to the United States responce to Mad Cow, ya think?

Re: Civet cat kill
 

No one hardly even blinked at the "onion scare". You didn't see the "veggie industry" freaking out trying to calm the world. You didn't see everyone crying "Oh no, I can't have my green onions!" "By god, I'm going to eat green onions no matter what!" You didn't see the "veggie industry" suing Oprah because she said it was possible to get something bad.

Basicly, it's a vegetable, no one cares.

Quzah.

I dunno...compared to the UK or Canada, our mad cow scare has seemed tame. Being able to blame Canada has probably helped.

I spent the weekend with my family. A friend of my sister's was there, he's from the UK oringally. He was there when the UK mad cow started appearing. He states that basicly the way it works is that the disease usually takes seven years to show up in people after the initial problem comes to light.

That is to say, in the UK, when they first discovered mad cow, it took seven years for people to start dying from, or having nasty symptoms from it. In other words, look me up in seven years, and then we'll see how bad it really is.

All in all it's a really shitty thing to have happen. But the thing is, they can say "oh, you get hepititus from your onions", to which all I have to reply is: "Not if I wash my food." It's hardly comarible. As far as I've seen, every single sickness you get from vegitable can be avoided by simply cleaning your food properly. The same can't be said for flesh.

Quzah.

I'm talking short-term/current though. The beef industry here is apparently doing well (though some countries have blocked our exports), and the media coverage (and general concern) all but died once they announced that the initial case originated in Canada.

Man, quzah has some major issues. Reading all he has to offer (or not), he is full of rage pointed at no one in particular, but at anyone who doesn't see eye to eye perfectly with him. If they don't he lets loose a barrage of insults. One thing he has succeeded however is leading everyone off the subject of civet cat culling to a heated debate over vegan/non-vegan diet plans. He seems intent on proving everyone wrong when no one agrees with him.

I, myself, am an omnivore and I agree that a healthy well balanced diet includes meat. Science and our own biology confirms our meat eating genes. There are some nutrients you must get from animal sources like some proteins and fatty acids. Take a look at our tooth structure. If we weren't meant to eat meat, then we wouldn't desire meat. Humans have been eating meat for hundreds of thousands of years. Whether you are a creationist or an evolutionist, both theories support meat eating habits.

On a more personal note, quzah, you radical fool! Chill out. Relax and have a nice porter house on me.

Wow. That took you like 60 seconds to figure out.

Welcome to the Cellar. Don't mind quzah. That's just his way.

Not everybody is like that. Well, radar is, but there's a different style to him and he's on vacation, sort of.

As far as the whole mad cow disease case in the U.S. goes, I'm disapointed in the US media. I really think that this deserves to be getting a lot more attention than it has.

This cow came from Canada. OK. I buy that. But how does it follow that it is the only one?

I forget the exact numbers, and don't feel like doing a Google search right now, but there is one cow tested for something like every 12,000 cows that are processed. That means, the "experts" have determined that 1 in 12,000 is a fair representative sample. The fact that 1 cow has shown up with the disease, and it supposedly is representative of 12,000 cows, means that 12,000 cows have the disease. We don't actually know that, but that's what statistics tell us.

I love meat. I love beef. But I haven't eaten ANY beef since that cow was found to have the disease. I know, it's probably too little too late at this point. If other tainted meat was out there, I probably ate it already. All the "experts" keep saying that our supply is safe, but these are the same experts who said it would never happen here. It did happen here. They were wrong then, and they are probably wrong now.

The rules are SLOWLY being changed to make it less likely to happen again, but there are tens of millions of cows out there that have been raised under the old guidelines. Eating blood and ground up downers mixed with their feed. It will be months or years before the current cow supplyis all gone. I'm happy to let all of you eat those old cows. I'll come back to beef eating after a few years. Assuming I don't have mad cow disease myself by then.

Personally, I think pork has a real nice flavor. Chicken is yummy too, although it has too much antibiotic in it.

And another thing.

Because I lived in Germany for a year and a half in the 80s, I'm not allowed to donate blood. The Red Cross thinks I might be carrying Mad Cow Disease in my blood. I used to donate all the time, and it bothers me that I can't anymore. There are almost always blood shortages, because it has such a short shelf life, and donations are low.

Since the disease has been found in the US cattle population, does that mean the US Red Cross now won't take blood from anyone that has lived in the US?

I also lived in Germany from 1992 to 1997 and I'm barred from giving blood, platelets, or anything. Even though I'm healthy and test negative for everything. You'd think that if I had mad cow I'd be dead by now.

I don't think they've actually discovered the "meat-eating genes", have they?

When you say that we were meant to eat meat, evolutionarily speaking, that's not really true. Evolution has no mind of its own. It has no "goal" or "desire". They way to look at it is this: Our ancestors started adding meat to their diet, and their teeth slowly adapted as a result.

It seems likely that if we decided to start eating something else, then our bodies would eventually adapt to fully exploit that food source as well.

Only if we stubbornly continued to eat it when it started killing a few people.


Hmmm. You may have something there.

I was under the impression that we ate meat from the git go, along with found things like fruit and berries. The diet didn't change significantly until beer was invented and an agricultural society was formed to support that endeavor.:beer:

Man, I sure could use a nice, big, juicy T-bone right about now.

Understatement of the century. But money controls the media.

The beef industry has lots and lots of (subsidized) money...

Furthermore, who gives a shit where it came from? The herd that came from Canada was over here for years. Years. There are plants in Washington, one of which handles "sick and downed cows" that hadn't been inspected for years.

See the problem? Sick and downed cows are the most likely to have Mad Cow. Yet they weren't inspected for years. Yet, this is somehow Canada's fault.

Personally I don't care what anyone eats. However, you'll forgive me if I have a hearty chuckle on those who die from eating meat. And if you don't: "My boy, I really don't care."

Quzah.

Doubtful. Especially if you're a believer in evolution. Thinking back, one of the first things you'd find to eat were berries and grass and such. The instinct to kill wouln't have been the first thing to develop, at least not for food. I'm not a biologist, so I may be wrong. But I believe that plant eating would have been done first, as it takes less effort to get a kill.

Consider the cheetah. They spend huge amounts of energy trying to chase down food to kill. Huge amounts. They rarely catch what they're going after also. (Nature, Learning Channel, some place sited as source. Again, I may be off in my facts. It's been years since I saw the show on them.)

Now on the other hand, you have humming birds...

Anyway...

If you're a Creationist, then you also have to believe in the fruit first version. After all, they started in a garden, and I've yet to see a steak tree. Furthermore, IIRC, the word "meat" actually meant sustinance, and not flesh. That is to say, IIRC, the first time it was used was in reference to fruits and vegetables (according to the bible).

But I'm not a god, or biblical scholar, so I could be off again.

Quzah.

And when exactly is the "git go"? :)

It all depends on how far back you go. 65 million years ago, for example, our ancestors were eating insects. Hell, that's why they survived and the dinosaurs didn't. Even a giant fucking asteroid can't kill the cockroaches on this planet.

Dangit Quzah! You're making me hungry... The very thought of a 'steak tree'.....

[Homer Mode]
MMMmmmmmmmm Steeeeakkk treeeeee.....
[/Homer Mode]


On a more serious note, I'll stop eating meat when my eyes slide to the sides of my head... Look at the animal kingdom... Predators have their eyes near each other, on the front of their face, for better depth perception during the hunt and the kill...
Herbivores tend to have their eyes on either side of their head, to better see a predator coming in for them, a wide field of view being more important that good depth perception...

Exactly, insects are meat.:)

Shit, Bruce....when are you ever gonna let me talk?????

Shaddap and eat your insects.;)

If you're lucky, you can get an apple with a worm in it. It's like having a "complete meal" for you omni...

Quzah.

Etymophagy isn't all that uncommon. It's the western world that's weird. tones of protein, roughage. It's just getting over the fact that they're *bugs*.

Why do I have the feeling that most people that eat bugs (intentionally), never heard the word etymophagy.;)

'Cause we American are weird!

Mad Cow is Baaack
 

Well, after all my ranting about being dissapointed in the press on this story, I feel a little vindicated.

I'm still dissapointed, because this was put on page 2 instead of front page above the fold, but page two is a start.

Expert panel at Department of Agriculture thinks there are still numerous cases of cows infected with Mad Cow disease in the US beef supply, and current standards do nothing to find them or prevent YOU from eating them.

But don't take my word for it:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Feb4.html

I stand by my decision to avoid beef until all this plays out in a couple years. Pains me to say it, cause I love beef. If you love your higher functions, you should avoid beef too.

The beef industry brought this upon themselves, and if they crash and burn, I will feel zero sympathy for them.

Maybe I'm just talking to myself on this one, but I'm going to post this anyway.

It looks like another case of mad cow disease was found over the weekend. Tests are not conclusive yet, and we won't know for a few more days, but I view it as a good sign. The sooner we find more of the infected cows, the sooner the problem will be taken seriously, and the sooner I will be able to eat my beloved beef again. You can't fix a problem until everyone agrees that there is one.

Saturday, June 26, 2004; Page A05 Washington Post

Preliminary Test Results 'Inconclusive' for Mad Cow

A U.S. animal tested positive in a preliminary screening test for mad cow disease, Agriculture Department officials said late yesterday.

John Clifford, deputy administrator of USDA veterinary services, said officials learned of the "inconclusive" test result at 5:30 p.m. The carcass is being sent to the USDA National Veterinary Laboratory in Ames, Iowa, for additional tests. Results are expected in four to seven days.

Clifford declined to identify the animal or its location until testing is complete, noting that it is "very likely" final testing could turn up negative.

"The animal in question didn't enter the food chain," he said. "If [additional tests are] positive, we'll provide additional information on the animal and origins."

It was the first "inconclusive" test result for the brain-wasting disease since the government began using rapid test kits in June as part of a program to test more cattle after a Holstein tested positive in Washington state in December. The faster test carries a greater risk of false positives. The USDA did not say whether the animal was a cow, steer or bull.

"This is not at all unexpected," Clifford said. "Screening tests are designed to be extremely sensitive."