2/18/2004: Iraqi artist creates statue of US GI
 

http://cellar.org/2004/kalat1.jpg

This is another one of those things that should be interesting no matter which side you're on.

During the Hussein regime, Iraqi sculptor Kalat was forced to produce statues of Saddam, including two statues that stood at the gates of a palace that the 4th Infantry Division took as its temporary HQ. The 4th ID tore down those statues and sent the scrap bronze to Kalat, who took a picture of an American GI and used it to create his own design of the above work.

It's a GI mourning the remains of a fallen comrade. Next to him is a little Iraqi girl. She comforts him. She is put there to remind us all of what that sacrifice meant: that as a result, the children of Iraqi will grow up in a better, freer society (we all hope).

The statue sits at that palace now, but eventually will be brought back to Fort Hood to remain at the Fort Hood museum.

The cost to produce the statue was taken on by the members of the 4th ID, out of their own pockets. Not just pocket change: $18,000.

The story was met with original skepticism, but then documented as true by Snopes here. The full story and original photos are at the full story from the 4th ID website.

Here is Kalat checking out his own work.

http://cellar.org/2004/kalat2.jpg

What a sentimental piece of crap. I am not suprised it was paid for by Americans. That's one way to get an image of a grateful, liberated Iraqi - cast it in metal. It seems propaganda is recyclable.

What a dreadful, shameful war it's been.

I think this is a beautiful tribute to the sacrifice our soldiers are making each and every day. They are doing their job. Maybe the government is wrong to send them there...maybe not...either way their eforts are impacting the lives of future generations by removing the cloak of tyranny that has long blocked the sunlight from their faces. Call me a sentimental bastard...whatever...as they say "if the shoe fits...."

Unless your narrative is wrong Hermex. It could happen.

Very poignant. Moreso when one is fully knowegable of the terrible atrocities committed by the regime. Sadly, in my experience, this is very few people.

Snopes questioned the Army News Service (ARNEWS) who called the following text "a relatively accurate description".

"This picture of the statue was made by an Iraqi artist named Kalat, who for years was forced by Saddam Hussein to make the many hundreds of bronze busts of Saddam that dotted Baghdad. This artist was so grateful that the Americans liberated his country, he melted 3 of the fallen Saddam heads and made a memorial statue dedicated to the American soldiers and their fallen comrades. Kalat worked on this night and day for several months. To the left of the kneeling soldier is a small Iraqi girl giving the soldier comfort as he mourns the loss of his comrade in arms. It is currently on display outside the palace that is now home to the 4th Infantry division. It will eventually be shipped and shown at the memorial museum in Fort Hood, Texas."

Seems to me, $18k takes away some of the "grateful" but it's a nice statue anyway. Typically American? Hell yes. We tend to put up monuments to the dead rather than the victorious heros. I think that's because until recently we didn't have a professional army and the victorious heros went home. We put up monuments to the ones that didn't.

Hermex- It was commissioned and paid for by G.I's to be displayed in a military museum. It's not like it's gonna be in Times square with a shiny plaque engraved with " Bittersweet".
That would be "sentimental crap"
This is a memorial.

Remove the little girl, and the scene then has more credibility; more relevance. The little girl is just too much distraction for what is really important. After all, what is most important to a soldier? Win the battle? Get metals? Do the job? No. The most important job a soldier can do from the perspective of that soldier - protect his buddies.

statue
 

What a tasteless piece of Disneyesque sentimentality. By far the nastiest aspect of this is the further exploitation of the Iraqi child, sister no doubt to the thousands of children killed and maimed in the invasion. It begs the question of who will the 'artist' be collaborating with next?

Right, except that there were NOT *thousands* of children killed or maimed in the invasion.

There WERE, however, hundreds of young children released from the children's prison in Baghdad.

I was over in England 2 years ago with my family and my father was our tour guide, having survived the blitz and war and such. Interesting that in England for the most part they have monuments to the war dead, most of which were put up after The Great War (WWI). They usually just keep adding names under later conflicts instead of erecting new memorials. Seems like in the USA everyone wants a tribute to the war they fought and died in. Even small towns have tributes to many different groups of war dead.

I forget where I was driving a few months ago but there was a sign on the freeway saying somethingl like "Korean War Memorial Highway". Strange country, roads in memory of wars and sports stadiums with corporate logos like my own town's "Minute Maid Park", "Reliant Energy Stadium" and "Toyota Center" for basketball and hockey.:confused:

Re: statue
 

I am completely against the war. But, like most Americans, I support the troops. A memorial for fallen comrades, paid for by the soldiers themselves, with the help of an Iraqi citizen is a great thing. Appreciating the sculpture and/or what it stands for does not make you in favor of the war.

No, you have to hate everyone and everything associated with the war. They are all pawns, tools and their masters. You have to want peace at any cost, even if you have to kill them all!

Lyrics for Kill for Peace by the Fugs, circa 1966


Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill, kill, kill for peace
Near or middle or very far east
Far or near or very middle east
Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill, kill, kill for peace
If you don't like the people
or the way that they talk
If you don't like their manners
or they way that they walk,
Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill, kill, kill for peace
If you don't kill them
then the Chinese will
If you don't want America
to play second fiddle,
Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill, kill, kill for peace
If you let them live
they might support the Russians
If you let them live
they might love the Russians
Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill, kill, kill for peace
(spoken) Kill 'em, kill 'em, strafe those gook creeps!
The only gook an
American can trust
Is a gook that's got
his yellow head bust.
Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill, kill, it'll
feel so good,
like my captain
said it should
Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill it will give
you a mental ease
kill it will give
you a big release
Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill, kill, kill for peace

I don't feel compelled to dislike this sculpture because I don't support the war. I just think it's a lousy scupture, an oversized Precious Moments figurine.

I find it offensive that Iraq's presence in the sculpture is as a little girl feeling sorry for an American. It makes an incredibly complicated relationship idiotically simple.

And it reminds me of those initial images of cheering Iraqis toppling the statue of Saddam. Later we discover that it was a handful of Iraqis being helped by American military. A great image, but a deceptive one. Just like these photos would make you think this Iraqi artist spontaneously created a tribute to American soldiers. In fact, it was paid for by Americans to memorialize themselves (and that's where the artist's former job seems a bit ironic).

Support Our Troops Disclaimer -- I support our troops. I really don't want them to die, I just don't like this sculpture.

Unless YOUR narrative is wrong Hermex. It could happen.

Of course I could be wrong. Maybe that artist was just waiting for some metal to be sent so that he could make this sculpture. Maybe little Iraqi girls feel really bad about loss of American lives. But seeing as this is a discussion, and I am not a reporter, I am just writing what I feel when I look at the pictures and read the story.

Did I read that this was modeled from a picture? It would mean more to me if it were a bronze representation of an actual moment. Otherwise rather contrived.

The Flight 232 Memorial that was put up in the city where I live was created from an actual photo and seems to mean quite a lot to those involved.

That said, if the soldiers who ponied up the $18,000 are happy with it, who am I to criticize?

I admit its no "crucifix in a glass of piss" but it isn't bad.

It's a commissioned work. Armchair criticism seems disingenuous.

Or strap explosives on her.

these 2 statements seem sort of.... contradictory... ? ... don't they ?

I don't see the contradiction?

The soldier was based on a photograph of a real soldier.

According to the 4th ID website story -

Really and here i thought it was to give you your freedom of speech.

I think you are thinking of another army !!!

I guess freedom is for only a few ??

Not in your wildest dreams. The soldiers job is to follow orders. Do the given job and try to survive as a secondary objective. It's not the soldiers job to know WHY he is there. All that shit about Mom, apple pie and the flag? Forgitaboutit. He's doing the job because he promised and he doesn't like Leavenworth. His personal beliefs don't enter into it.

On that thread bruce:

Every few years the Aussie armed forces does a little quiz: In the even of a coup/major government destabilistation would your loyalty lie with your commanding officer or the Prime Minister. Each time it's overwhelmingly for CO. Interpret how you will.

Sure Jag, love the one you're with.;)
That's always been the danger of a professional army, but it can happen with a citizen army also, though less likely.

Unless it's John Kerry. If you're liberal, you're doing it for The Children(tm).
Feh. This thread alone is a powerful argument for draft-dodging. Why put your butt on the line when no one is going to appreciate it anyway? If Saddam rode through the fucking Reflecting Pool with an AK in one hand and the head of a 5-year-old from Topeka in the other, he would still have American apologists trembling behind their olive branches asking the UN to give him just ooonnnnne more chance.
Shit.
Not directed at you, Bruce, your quote was just a handy springboard for my rant.

Actually the issue is that Saddam didn't do anything to the US, which is why Bush had to come up with a justification in the first place.

Really and you know this how??

Being a military wife i guess i know nothing !!!!

Becouse if just one person does appreciate it, it is all worth it. That is what my DH says.

I guess he didnt do enough to his own people.
Oh and there is that little bounty he put on our military personal heads. Well actually it was on the heads of any and all of the miltitary members that served in the sand box.

Spring away Noodle, but lets not confuse the reasons people join the Army, with the reasons they do what they do, while serving in the Army. Boot camp is designed to specifically separate the two.

Think about it, that soldier in the war zone hears his seargent yell GO. Does he postulate about mom, apple pie or the flag? Hell no, he goes, as he's been trained to do, as part of a unit, part of a machine. The only other thought might be that he's scared (unless he's stupid) because that's natural, but he goes because he's a soldier, and that's what soldiers do.
In his off time he may think about the justness of the war, the reasons for it or even the reasoning against it. But when it's time to go to work, that's moot. He does what he does because that's his job and he's promised to do it.

So soldiers are just a bunch of mindless pawns in the game of war? Just don't forget that without these selfless patriots serving our country you wouldn't have the freedoms that we all enjoy so much. Like the freedom to express your opinions here, one I'm sure the Iraqi people could only have dreamed of before we liberated them from a dictatorial tyrant.
I served my country and am very proud of having done so. I'm just wondering how many of you served and if not, where do you get off making negative comments about those of us that have?

and then follow that up with You answered your own question.

And just so you are aware, I agree with Bruce. I have MANY family and friends that are serving/have served in all of our branches of the armed forces, and I know for a fact that you are specifically trained in Boot Camp not to question orders, but to do it, and do it NOW.

So to answer your question, Yes. Soldiers/Sailors are supposed to be mindless pawns in the game of war. Killing machines, remember? Machines do not question orders.

That doesn't mean they are stupid, nor does it mean they are without courage and bravery. I have full respect for them, and the sacrifices they make and have made for me and mine. But if a soldier is on the battlefield, and hesitates to act because he's thinking about the morality/justification of why he is there, in a combat situation, he is dead. And if you served in the military, you know that.

So get the wad of panties out of your ass and realize that no where in Bruce's posts did he say "Man, military people are fucking retards."

I don't see that that is being said. Bruce made it pretty clear when he said that there is a time when thinking is an option, and a time when thinking isn't.

I also don't see where there have been any negative comments about the members of the military. The military leadership? Yeah. The politicians? Yeah. Sailors, pilots, soldiers and marines? Not that I've seen.

I did my turn and haven't seen anything to shoot Bruce over yet. I haven't ruled out nailing his foot to the floor yet, but I'll give him some more time to be sure.

Edit: put an "a" where it belongs.

I also don't see where there have been any negative comments about the members of the military. The military leadership? Yeah. The politicians? Yeah. Sailors, pilots, soldiers and marines? Not that I've seen.

Where did the recent, disturbing trend of "you obviously don't support our troops because you don't agree with X" come from, anyways? And are there really people living in this country that don't support them or do denounce them just for doing their jobs?

There are a few people who think that the soldiers should refuse to serve if a war is unjustified. While there is an abstract attractiveness to that idea, I don't think it is a good idea in practice, and I certainly wouldn't hold any soldiers to it.

But the "you don't support the troops" thing is just a vicious rhetorical attack, designed to derail the opposing argument, forcing them to explain the fallacy. Time thus spent is time not spent making a real argument, and doesn't have the soundbite quality of the accusation.

Your confusing the reasons they join the military with the reason they fight when the time comes. I'm certainly not dissing anyone that choses to join the military. God bless them all.
BUT, I still maintain when the time comes to fight, they do what they do because they are trained to follow orders without question. If they don't, they will likely fail and maybe die.

It comes from confusing patriotism and nationalism.

And while it may not exactly match the criteria of your question, but check this out.

http://www.godhatesamerica.com/

I cannot beleive what I have been reading! I have been in Iraq for 11 months, thinking that you folks back home have been supportive of us, and believing in what we are doing is right. I have seen alot of things here, that little girl in the statue, I see that , and it reminds me of why we are here. I have the devistation here, and I have seen the Pheonix rise from the ashes. The little girl represents the hope, and the respect that they hold for us. That is how I see it. I didnt take shrapnal and bullets for you folks to belittle us, and treat us like this. I am 3rd Generation Military, I have respect for all those whose sacrifice is great, and I feel that the statue was done in good taste. Thank you for your time.

Semper Princeps!!!!!!

(Always First):mad:

We're not all raging knee-jerk liberals here.

Thanks for your service, Fireman.

Man, you do both ... defend the country and run the "wrong" way when buildings are burning.

Double thanks.

Not in your wildest dreams. The soldiers job is to follow orders. Do the given job and try to survive as a secondary objective. It's not the soldiers job to know WHY he is there. All that shit about Mom, apple pie and the flag? Forgitaboutit. He's doing the job because he promised and he doesn't like Leavenworth. His personal beliefs don't enter into it.

(Quote xoxoxoBruce)


With all do respect. I love what I do. Thats why I picked Firefighter instead of Inf., I HAVE BELEIFS! I am not a mindless solider, I am a human being that has respect for human life. If you are that nerrow minded, why dont you come out here and sit in my job and see what you think. Its people like you that put the wrong impression into peoples heads. We know why we are doing what we do, or we wouldnt put our lives on the line so others may live. I am a medic, and a firefighter. I put my life on the line back home as a firefighter, does that mean that I am mindless for going into a buning building to save you and your family, becouse I took and oath to protect those in need?

Semper Priceps!
(this means "Always First"

Thank you for your service Fireman.

I believe that almost every narrative that the media considers when telling us about Iraq is simply wrong, because they need a story and they are trained to ignore the obvious story in front of their faces.

At this point almost everyone sees every event in Iraq through their confused narrative; everything reported is run through a bias filter that bears little relation to reality.

Look at Hermex's reaction and it's clear it has no basis in fact. He didn't know what the story was so he made it up. The art is poor, the artist confused, the entire thing sentimentalist. There is no information about how the artist actually felt and just a suggestion about how the project came together. He filled in the rest with his concept of how things are. Reality is not a priority.

But Fireman, the important thing is the facts on the ground where you are. The people there. Screw the media, screw the public, screw all our stupid reactions. The important thing is how history judges us in the long, long run.

The stupid people will judge you on their stupid concept of what happened. The smart people will judge you for being one of the people who takes responsibility and does the hard job needing done.

Undertoad-


Thank you for your support. I appoligise if I seemed out of line to some people. But you are right. People need to see with their own eyes what we go through here, not just what the media shows. I bet that half of the people back home dont know about the Operation Back To School, do they. The engineer rebuilt run down schools that didnt have good desks, or blackboards even. No air conditioning, or even a safe playground. I will refer agein to the little girl in the statue, at the opening of the rebuilt school, there was a little girl there, I keep her in mind all the time. Being a father myself a 4 year old daughter, the look on this little girls face was precious, the look of surprize, and happieness still plays on my mind. I tear and swell with pride that we, as Americans helped brighten the future of these children. If I can just reach some of the people thar critisize us out here, sacrificing our life and our freedom, and our families back home that make the same sacrifice in different ways. I know that I will always remember that little girl for the rest of my life, and that is why that statue will always be a symbol of the sacrifices made in this war for both sides. Thank you for your time.

Semper Princeps

What's with the pants
 

Middle East guys always wear the worst jeans over there.

Whoa, back up Fireman. I apparently should have specified grunts. My follow up post said:I don't think you're a mindless soldier and I don't think the grunts are either. I'm sure you're proud of the things you accomplished and justifiably so.
Yes, I was aware of the schools being rebuilt. Through the miracle of the internet, there has been a lot of first hand information being posted by our guys and Iraquis as well.
It's been a typical American war, in that when the fighting is over (according to Bush :rolleyes: ), the humanitarian aid, on a personal level, from the American soldiers, to even the former enemy combatants, is tremendous. Even more so, toward the civilians.
But don't mistake the grumbling about the reasons for the war or Bush's foreign policy, as ingratitude for the job you guys did/are doing over there. That's not the case at all.
As far as you're being a fireman, you're a damn fool and thank you very,very much. :beer:

Bruce...... Thank you for your support,I think. I guess you are right, running into a burning building were ever cockroaches wont stay, is pretty foolish, but like I said, I love my job. On that note. I love my country as well. I cant say I agree with Bushs' cabinet about the "end of hostile actions", but see, this is why I am an Indipendent. I can agree with both side and still not be hell bent on one thing. Anyway. I didnt mean to get out of line. I am just a very Patriotic and Proud American Solider, and I feel what we did is right. You have the right to your opinion, I have the right to mine as well, that is what make America so great. Its people that put the blame on us Patriotic Americans,(Radar:LOL)
that make me :angry: But I da thank every one of you who understand us here in the front. I just wish that my Father could have had a Patriotic welcome home, instead of being physically beaten by "Peace Lovers" at the airport gates. Thats how I feel, like we are being verbally beat by "Peace Mongers" that blame us(military) for believing in freedom. But thats just my opinion.
Thank you for your time.

Semper Princeps!
(Always First):

Exactly, like Wolf said , when the building is on fire, you run the wrong way. That's crazy, man. You firemen are all nuts. I sure wouldn't have the balls to do that stuff.
So like I said, you're a damn fool, but we appreciate it. Thanks.:D