I know this isn't Oprah but...
 

Today I feel blue. In fact, it's a dark deep navy. With black edges. I think I have a broken heart. Again. Can I talk about it?

I'm going to anyway.

This is the background: I live in a house with four people. We are all twenty-something. There are two guys and two girls. For the moment we will disregard the other guy as he only moved in recently and isn't really part of this. So, two girls and a guy. For as long as I have known the other girl, she has been in 'love' with the guy, but he's never reciprocated. Then, about six months ago, things happened between them and they embarked on a sexual relationship, i.e. friends-who-fuck not boyfriend-and-girlfriend. Girl then went travelling for 3 months, and returned home yesterday.

Rewind to about 12 months ago. I started developing feelings for the guy. Don't know how or why. Thought it best to bury them. Didn't want to jeopardise the friendship, and I knew how the girl (by now a good friend) felt. Imagine the pain when they got it together. But, being fairly resilient, I managed to deal with it, mostly by ignoring it (hard when you live in the same house).

However, while said girl was away, for the last three months myself and this guy had a bit of a fling. And it wasn't just sexual. We found our friendship growing stronger and stronger, and spent so much time talking, I have never met anyone I connect with, who is so in tune with me, who is so intelligent he makes me question myself every day, as he says I do to him. Cliche or not, I have never felt so alive and happy. I think I've fallen in love with him.

But now she's back. It's awkward. She has always been competitive with me, and I'm sure she senses something, because it's worse than ever. Her flirtation is relentless. And he has no intention of discontinuing their 'relationship'. He says he finds it hard, knowing (to some extent) how we both feel, although I think he's got it made. Two beautiful girls, mad about him, in the same house? Except I am the underdog. No one knows about our 'affair', and he is going to carry on with her like nothing happened. Under the same roof. I can't describe how painful this is. At best, the social environment is incredibly uncomfortable and forced. At worst, my heart aches, my stomach contracts and leaving the room is all I can do not to cry and cry.

To move out, however, would be to give up. And there is still a part of me that is clinging onto the possibility that we still have a chance. It is incredibly arrogant of me, but I don't think she has the qualities he deserves, nowhere near. She has very cleverly manipulated him and he cannot see it. She becomes something she is not around him. Says she likes things because he does, aligns herself with him so he believes they are similar. She is completely different. She is weak and he is strong. She is naive, conniving and doesn't love him for who he is, but for someone she thinks she can mould him into, given the opportunity. I can't stand to watch.

I don't want to change him, I love him the way he is. I love the way we make each other feel, I would spend time with him over anyone else I know and value him more than anyone I have ever met, and I can't bear not being with him. Does selfless, accepting, pure, passionate love not get a chance just because it doesn't fight or play games?

Sorry to go on. Just had to get it off my chest. If anyone has anything to say that doesn't involve the words 'together', 'yourself' and 'pull' I would be so grateful.

I want to be very careful about how I say this... What behavior of his makes you think your feelings are reciprocated? I see a guy taking advantage of two young women. insert free milk and cow speech here I'm sorry for your pain.

I'd qualify that as seeing a guy possibly taking advantage of a situation.

Not enough information. We'll never hear from the guy or the other girl.

this is going to sound insane, but I think you should print your post and hand it to him.

it will take very large balls, but the sooner you do it, the sooner you will resolve this issue. to do nothing would be too damaging.

Given that last time I looked my balls were the size of two disadvantaged peanuts, and the fact that Griff made a hell of a lot of sense (isn't it funny how blind you can be when in the midst of an emotional situation) I think I'll leave off telling him for now.

True, TS, you've only got my irrational, twisted and emotionally charged account of events. But given that I cannot impact the actual situation (ie cannot alter other peoples feelings) the only thing I can change is myself and that is what I guess I am looking for help with. I wouldn't presume to be able to solve the situation, but I can tailor my psychological response to it to minimise the trauma. Just got a bit stuck and found myself drowning.

Don't hold back, if you think I'm being a pathetic spineless weak-willed typically erratic emotion-led woman please say so. It might help.


edited for... doesn't matter

I like LJ's suggestion. But I'd buy some Haagen Daz futures and scrape together a new rent deposit just to hedge your bet.

This guy has basically put an offer on the table to you both: I'll have sex and give you a warm and fuzzy but no relationship. Since both of you accepted the deal (at different points in time), it will be hard to go back now and change the terms (e.g., drop the other girl and give me a relationship). Since your friend is still ok with the original deal, the guy has no incentive to take your deal unless he really does have feelings for you. In a way, its a good thing because the only way he will accept an "ultimatum" is if he really cares for you. Sometimes, a woman is not sure, when a guy stays with her, if its the sex or the relationship that is keeping him there. You will be spared that uncertainty (since he already has a "free sex" offer on the table) so in a way, its a very clean cut situation.

But, you must give it a try - the only thing you have to lose is not knowing. The hurt of love lost will fade. The agony of not "going for it" and wondering if it would have worked out had you gone for it will never fade.

I was just saying that any information we gave you concerning the other two people would be very suspect due to the lack of information to work with.

Now, that being said, it's my opinion that you get your feelings made clear as soon as is expedient (like it was said before, Haagen Daaz and rent money just in case).

The bit where I read and understand your post but still give a categorically unrelated emotional response:

But he does kind of know how I feel! I've told him I like him, I've slept with him, I've told him I find it hard now she's back. Surely that adds up - he's not stupid. I think I'm waiting for him to say 'I've decided I don't want her, I want you, let me whisk you away' which of course he wont while we're both still sat on the table, legs open and hungry (can't be bothered to correct implausible metaphor). So have decided to leave the table. Not going to have any relationship above friends while he's sleeping with her. If he's bothered, it'll show right? He'll say something? If not, I do have enough self respect to forget about it. (Not, you would think, something that was immediately apparent in previous post).

Haagen Dazs and rent money? Is syphillis involved?

Originally posted by Catwoman No. Haagen Daz is a premium ice cream here in the States that women buy mass quantities of to get over the hurt and the rent money is to find a new place to live. Sexually transmitted disease didn't enter my mind.

We've all been there at one point or another - and frankly, it sucks.

**wishing you strength**

How do you know what he knows? You CANNOT base any action (or inaction) on what you THINK he knows. That is a recipe for disaster.

Insert Radar-like attitude here: Why should he want to change what he has? He's got sex from her, he's got your "friendship" and care. Why would any guy want to change that?

Even if you cut him off sexually, he's still getting the pussy from her. He doesn't need yours.

Obviously, i'ts more to the female living with you than "friends that fuck" at this point, or it wouldn't be an issue for you to tell her "While you were gone, we started a relationship." If they were just friends, she shouldn't have a problem with that.

You need to decide in your heart and your head what you are willing to live with. Once that's decided, put it out on the table. "I have feelings for you, and I need to know if you want a relationship or not. If so, great, sex with miss thang is over, and if she can't accept that, she moves out. If not, then I can't handle your relationship with her, and I'm moving out. (If that is what you've decided to do.)

Bottomline here Cat, is basically what Beestie has said. If you say something, the worst possible outcome is he says no, you move, nurse the heartache, and get on with your life. If you don't say something, you will never know "what could have been" and it will haunt you the rest of your days.

Been there, done that. Don't make that mistake.

"Some mistakes were built to last" ~ George Michael

Men are notoriously clueless about such things. (See the "oh wait that woman was flirting with me but I didn't realize it till three months later" discussion from.. oh, some time ago, & I'm too lazy to look it up.)

more importantly....you've slept with HER! yay, lesbians!

Onyx, I know you're right. She does want more than friends with him. He will always have access to her pussy, and 'a c**t's a c**t no matter what gut it's hung from' to quote someone I know.

So do I withdraw friendship as well? Surely that would be stupid - am I not mature and rational enough to maintain an adult friendship (once I know where I stand) without obscuring it with feelings? Sex things cum and go but.... well I think this is one friend I'd like to keep, romantic feelings aside. Are you saying this gives him the wrong impression? If I am absolutely clear with him about my feelings it can only impact our friendship and I don't want that to happen 1) because I genuinely value his friendship and 2) because just cos it may not be right now, I don't want to jeopardise a future relationship because I said the wrong thing at the wrong time. Does that make sense?

And the syphillis thing... she's not sleeping with anyone else, hasn't for ages (she's hoping for a relationship too). What a mess.

Beestie thanks for the strength I need it :) and it was a joke about the Haagen Dazs thing... we have it here too, and 'rent money' is a term for prostitute money, hence the sordid ice cream, sex and STD connection... Never mind, remind me not to attempt to make jokes when in the proverbial dumps.

Don't forget that your are interpreting EVERYBODY'S behavior through the haze of your own feelings for the male ... people may or not be doing the things you think they are.

It's already been said better by others, but the "pattern" of people in the residence being fuckbuddies has already been established. If you want something different, do something different, possibly even *gasp* saying out loud what you think, feel, and mean.

But yeah, a tub of overly rich chocolate ice cream, preferrably with chocolate bits, and a lead on a new place to live makes a decent fall back position.

"I don't think she has the qualities he deserves, nowhere near. She has very cleverly manipulated him and he cannot see it."


Seems to me that he doesn't have the qualities YOU deserve, and that he's manipulated you BOTH.

He may make you happy in that you two get along so well, but it seems to me that he was taking advantage of you when the other girl left. No offense to the guys out there, but men are very good at pretending to be who they aren't just to get laid. If he really DID care for you, he wouldn't be sleeping with her right now. Sounds to me like he just wants sex, regardless of who it's with.

You should consider yourself worth more than that. Doesn't seem to me that he deserves what YOU have to offer.


Regardless, though, I wish you luck, and I'll have my fingers crossed that things work out well for you.


Sidhe

I agree with your post 100%, Sidhe. And this I think is the crucial bit:
He has made his choice painfully clear. It seems obvious to me.

Catwoman, I think we have all been in your shoes. I know I have. It sucks. I feel for you. I'm skeptical that you can remain friends with him, even if you want to. Your emotions are too strong. I know I couldn't.

By all means, I think you should talk to him. Tell him everything. It will clear the air, and you will see where you stand. You will feel better, and it may actually help the situation. At a minimum, the two of them may be more discreet in the future. At least they will be if they were ever your friends.

Or you may find out that it wasn't meant to be. You'll probably need to move out then. It would be too painful to stay.

Whatever happens, I wish you the best.

You can change their understanding of how you feel. Don't assume they know your feelings. Good luck, Cat.:)

Thanks for your support guys, Lady S you have a very good point, although it was me who initiated the 'affair' when she left, he didn't even want to at first, for the exact reason that he thought (quite accurately) it would make things awkward and could affect our friendship. I thought a) I could deal with it if it didn't work out (wrong!) and b) I had a sneaky suspicion it would work out (wrong again!) Yes I am viewing everything through very tinted glasses. I am always quick to accuse people who I think are making judgements based on emotions which only distort an issue that is otherwise pretty clear cut. Not so easy when it's me who's living in the blur.

Anyway, there has been an update: he has told me he doesn't want to sleep with her anymore. He says this is nothing to do with me, but the fact that she's getting too clingy and invasive. I doubt this resolution will last, but that's how it stands right now. And he has been avoiding her, quite literally. Makes things slightly easier for now anyway. Time I think to get in touch with my real feelings, I'm still not going to do anything with him till I see the final outcome of the other situation. And in the meantime I'll go on dates with other guys, not going to let his selfishness stop me enjoying myself, and it will come through in the end if he really cares.

Glatt talking to him now about a relationship doesn't seem a good idea when he's getting stressed about girl B wanting one. Don't you think I should leave it for now until his position becomes clearer?

Otherwise the choc ice cream (preferably Haagen Dazs Belgian Chocolate or Ben & Jerry's Phish Food) sounds like a good a plan as any wolf.

Thanks again for your messages of encouragement :)

You sound like you have things on the right track.

Good luck.

:thumb:

Oh dear.

"I'm still not going to do anything with him till I see the final outcome of the other situation. And in the meantime I'll go on dates with other guys, not going to let his selfishness stop me enjoying myself, and it will come through in the end if he really cares."

It did. He doesn't. And I didn't do any of the above.

Carried on like the stupid weak-willed woman I am. We slept together all the time. Girl B is pretty much out of the equation so I figured I was safe. Got even more involved. Had the best sex EVER. It was gentle, loving, passionate sex. Lots of kissing. He initiated it as much as I did, if not more. We spent many evenings where people assumed we were boyfriend and girlfriend, and he was happy to go along with this, in public. We've been on weekends away, magical weekends talking about life love and everything. I felt something was changing, I was so happy.

Last night he slept with someone else. Went home with her. Girl he met in a bar. Met her while I was there. I was talking to a guy for most of the evening; he said he noticed. I saw him looking. Part of me wants to think he did it in retaliation because he was jealous, but he has told me he never gets jealous, and I think I am making myself more important in his head than I really am. She wasn't even that attractive, and maybe ten years older than him. I went home before him even though he asked if I wanted to stay for a drink. I couldn't bear to watch them flirting so I drove home, drunk, swerving everywhere and trying not to cry. Didn't sleep last night. My eyes are sore.

I don't know what to do. Do I act as if nothing has happened, because at the end of the day, he never promised me anything. Technically, he's done nothing wrong. Or should I tell him how I feel: rejected, betrayed, and very hurt. And then wait for him to say 'I never promised you anything'. That's the only possible outcome. How could I be so stupid?

I am very sorry for the situation you are in, being in love with someone is like being hooked on drugs. When your dealer takes you stash from you you suffer, you go live in that black hole.

Sex and Friends don't mix, get out of there, your friendship with him (and possibly her) died the minute you slept with him.

Some of the worst moments in my life were when I decided that I could be still friends with a girlfriend who had cheated on me. I was fooling myself, under the modern human still beats a primative heart, I was still in love with her and I was really cutting myself up with a knife to remain in her presence.

She had been my best friend, if I hadn't been a fool kid I would never of slept with her and we might still be friends. Testosterone does funny things to you.

I stubbled over her email address the other day and at times I am tempted to email her just to find out what has happened in her life, but another part of me knows that is not a good idea and that way grief lies.

Do you really think that's true? Do you think I've lost everything already? If so there's no point me hanging on... I just keep thinking, give it time, he'll come round, he'll see, we'll make it together. Hope. So futile. I know how stupid I sound.

I can't accept grief. I know it's self-destructive, but continuing the situation means I do not have to accept the loss. Denial is so powerful. It would feel like giving up if I left, like I'd missed the most important opportunity in my life. Something inside me STILL thinks there is a chance he cares. What is wrong with me, why can't I see it for what it is? That glimmer of hope... when giving advice to someone else I would always say 'don't give up hope, it's the most important thing we have'. But when a situation is just so hopeless? Is there any point having hope. It's like I don't want to stop my feelings for him in case he changes his mind, and then it would be too late.

Your best friend... even if you had never slept with her, you would still have those unresolved feelings for her. Wouldn't that have been equally as destructive? I think the minute feelings get involved, not sex, is when all the problems start.

What a mess. Should I tell him how I feel?

It's not true, at least not in my experience or opinion, give things time. I have two very close female friends, one an ex one not who I've slept with, we wouldn't be as closer friends now if that had not happened both were a long time ago now but it means there no sexual tension there now, just closeness.

That said it sounds like he's taken advantage of the situation or is seriously, seriously confused. There could be some very odd motives behind what he did.

Some nameless dude that lives with two chicks:

" I'm really confused. I live with two women, and while I have had sex with both of them, I am starting to have real feelings for one. The other one went away for a long vacation, and I started doing it with the cute one. then the first one came back, and i was a little confused. a bit of time went by, and i realized that i liked the second one better, but didn't want to create a rift in our house. it's such a touchy thing. if i get too friendly with the second one, the first will feel excluded, so i try to keep things 'friendly' and the cute one and i tell each other that we're just friends that like to have sex with each other. every time i think we're getting serious, she does something like flirting with a guy at a bar in front of me. I have to interpret this to mean that she really DOES just want to be friends that fuck (ftf). so i wind up apeing her, and picking up some slut to show her that i'm cool with ftf, too. but i cant help feeling that something is slipping away, and im afraid that girl 2 doesnt really care.......should i just tell her how i feel? or should i guard my pride in fear that she will reject any offer of a more normal relationship...... what to do?"

edit.....various spelling and typos

I just popped home for lunch and he was there. I decided to be honest. I told him I felt hurt. He said I had no reason to be. I said I knew, you never promised anything. I asked him why he did it. He mentioned curiosity, practice, ego. And then he said it was to see my reaction. He said he wants to prevent us getting closer because he values our friendship so much that he doesn't want to see it destroyed if we have a relationship. He thinks we would get too involved if he didn't do something like this, that he didn't want to hurt me but thought it was better to set a precedent, so he wouldn't mislead me, because he doesn't want to get hurt again. His last relationship ended the same time as mine, about 2 years ago. We were both in love with our partners and the break ups were very painful. I am only recently over it, him likewise. Both still sore. So it was a defense mechanism. Not to make me jealous, not to prove a point, just to kill the feelings.

Only they haven't died. I told him if ever there were two people who could make it work it was us, because we understand that in a relationship it is the sureness, the promises, that set you up for pain, and that if we could understand that we could act upon it and our relationship would never be labelled or structured or based on insecurity. I hope he will think about this. I don't know what will happen. At least now we have been honest with each other.

I know though, no matter what happens, I will always want to be friends. You just can't throw away a connection like that.

Occasional wisdom in action ;)

Thanks lj that helps a lot.

well, it looks like you have done the right thing, cat. i'm quite proud of you. that was brave of you to finally tell him what you were thinking. at least the topic has been broached. hopefully the conversation you two had will rattle around in his head and come up to the surface with a positive outcome.....

i do not envy your situation, but at the same time, i do. the torture of new love can be sweet as well as painful. sometimes simultaeneously. good luck. i hope he comes around for you. if you were feeling really brave, you could go with my original advice and show him this thread........ If he has any chivalry at all, he'll melt before your eyes as he reads it. ;)

You're very sweet. I think I'd like to keep the Cellar to myself for now though. It's like ready-made intelligent, thoughtful friends at the click of a finger! (or mouse)

:D

wanted to add the big grin and say thanks again

You did the right thing, I wish you the best of luck =)

Good job, Catwoman.

If he felt it, it might have an impact.

But it seems at least relatively clear that he doesn't.

Outside of the satisfaction or further hurt YOU will experience from the venting, I don't know what it would accomplish for you.

It's been established that the relationships of people in your household are fluid and nonbinding. You don't have any exclusivity deal. You're not even, as many of today's younger folk do, practicing serial monogamy.

It was never in the 'rules,' unwritten or not.

You're housemates who happened to have fucked. You didn't establish anything else.

Get yourself a large tub of the chocolatiest ice cream you can find, one spoon, put on your jammies and fuzzy slippers, and start reading through the "to let" adverts.

Unless yours is the sole name on the lease where you are, in which case, telling him and the chick to get the hell out might be a better start.

note: Posted before reading Catwoman's response regarding the conversation, but I'm leaving this anyway.

Heh, for some reason I read this like it was something out of Wild Kingdom. I think it was the use of the word "male"...ah don't ask. I'm in a silly mood today. :p

Quote:

But yeah, a tub of overly rich chocolate ice cream, preferrably with chocolate bits, and a lead on a new place to live makes a decent fall back position.

Amen to that! :thumb:

I've read thru all the posts. (sigh) Here's what I think, and believe me, I not only have been around the block; I've been around the entire damned back country road in places where you can only drive with a winch and 4wd drive in compound low. I got the t-shirt and used it to wipe up all the blood and threw it away. So...

Get out now. Every moment that you stay is an extra moment of self-inflicted pain. The man made you no promises and he is living up to them. If he wanted you for a real relationship, he'd have let you know long ago. If a man wants something, he goes after it; he doesn't leave it to chance. For example, if a man was walking down the street and saw a hundred dollar bill laying on the sidewalk, would he turn away from it and ask a passer by for 10 cents for the parking meter? Not hardly. You have to consider yourself to be just like that hundred dollar bill. A man who passes you by for chump change in a bar is not worth breaking your heart over.

This guy may indeed enjoy your friendship. He certainly enjoys getting to have you in bed along with this other girl, along with whomever he can pick up in a bar, along with who ever else. His actions show very plainly that he is not interested in exclusivity. This does not make him a "bad" guy, but it makes him the wrong guy for you if exclusivity is what you want.

What you get to do is to accept him for who he is and accept yourself for who you are. You can remain on in a dead end situation that only brings you pain, or you can pull the arrow out and go on with your life.

Get another place to live. Don't have ANY contact with this guy for at least 6 months, better still, a year. If at the end of that time, you feel that you can be his platonic friend and still wish to be, more power to you. But staying on as you are now and attempting some sort of friendship when what you really want is a relationship is a sure fire recipe for lots and lots of heartache. Hold your head up and exit stage right. You'll be glad you did, hard as it may seem now.

Even though he has said he is avoiding a relationship because he knows there is a possibility we would break up, there's no guarantees, and he doesn't want to go through the pain again? Shows he must have some feelings for me doesn't it? I know I can't tell him to let go of his fear, but I'm hoping he will. You see for me I think it's gone too far already to avoid the pain. For him, he's just recognising signs that it's starting. He said better say it now instead of 2 years down the line, when it would be so much more painful. It's like I want to wait for him. I'm so involved now already a few more months won't make that much difference surely, and if the time becomes right for him it will all be worth it.

Am I just being incredibly naive? Or should I hold onto the possibility of loving again?

I am probably too cynical to answer correctly that question.

But in terms of managing your situation your problem would seem to be that you live with him. You seem to be in love with him and would like him to take the risk to love you too, it would be more managable for you if you didn't live with him but instead only met up occasionally, of course if you left the house that leaves studboy living alone with that other girl.

Life is a bitch, be demanding on him and yourself, it will save pain in the long run.

-disclaimer- all advice given is subject to change, investments may go up as well as down, if you do not make your payments you may lose your house ;)

added commas and shit on edit (as normal)

That may be more true than I'd like to think... :(

Moving out is not really financially viable right now. Feelings aside I've got a very good deal living there and as I'm uncertain with regard to the future of my job etc. it doesn't make sense to up and leave. As for the emotional cost... oh I don't know maybe I enjoy getting my heart broken. This is the second time.

What do you mean be demanding on him? Are you saying I should try and force him? I don't think he'd respond too well to that, and I wouldn't want it to be forced anyway. Is there a way of making him see? Maybe I should go and sleep with someone and see his reaction, just like he did to me. Maybe it would make things clearer in his head. It wouldn't be spiteful, more of an experiment. What do you think?

I live in Portugal and I'm married but thank you very much for the offer ;)

By demanding, I mean it just seems that in your current situation you stand to lose by letting it drag out, you are at an emotional disadvantage. At least tell him you don't want to sleep together until he is prepared to make it exclusive and wants a relationship. Maybe i'm just old fashioned

I went to Portugal last year to Albufeira, had a brilliant time, and developed a real sense of the language, obrigado :rolleyes:

OK here's the plan. I go out tonight or very soon and sleep with another guy. I judge his reaction. If he's not bothered, fuck it. If he is, I'll tell him I won't sleep with him unless it's exclusive. I think I need to do it - it will act as a catalyst for him if he really is bothered.

Good idea?

nope

Why?

I'd tell him you won't sleep with him unless it's exclusive. I'd avoid playing games by sleeping with some random guy.

I'm a fan of clear communication instead of games. Just tell him that you can't be in a relationship with him if it's not exclusive. And then stick to your guns. If things don't work out, I would move out.

But I'm after something that will make him see (either way) how he really feels, and take action on it. I think sleeping with someone else would be the ideal way. Plus I could see how I feel about it - maybe I am just caught up in the whole thing and don't really love him at all. Ultimatums just won't work at this stage because he's already given me a reason for not wanting to develop things further. I think the situation just needs a catalyst to instigate change; then at least I'll know for good, either way.

Btw I really appreciate your continued comments guys, I hope I'm not going on too much... :rolleyes:

:)

cat, i'm sure you know that sleeping with some random guy won't help you find anything out. What are you, nuts? It just feels wrong, doesn't it? and not very fair to the random guy.

if you want to go boff some dude, god bless, but do not attempt to manipulate this guy that you say you care about by doing it.

women are nuts.

I'm sure the random guy wouldn't complain.

"but do not attempt to manipulate this guy that you say you care about by doing it"

But that's exactly what he did to me!

I think everyone turns nutty when drowning in the acheing consuming passion of unconfirmed love. [/end melodrama]

and how did you like it? two wrongs don't make a right.

i know you're bent in the head right now, but you shouldn't start fucking with his.

listen to what Glatt said...he's smart....give it some time, stop boinking him if you want to know how he feels emotionally, and let it play out.

If he has feelings ( other than localized high blood pressure) for you, he'll let you know if you cut off the nookie.

the thing is that i think you're confusing love and sex. having sex with someone else will only further reduce your relationship to a solely sexual dynamic. Now, if you want to test his love.....tell him you have met someone that you might be falling for and see what he does. still manipulation, but at least it's pointed in the right direction.

Or after all this he's close enough to the edge to give up and it finishes it.

OK how confused am I now.

LJ, glatt, you make sense, but so do you jag. I just don't want to fuck this one up.

I feel an incredible urge to do something about the situation, but maybe the best thing is to do nothing, and let feelings take their course. Surely if they're that strong they won't need a catalyst? As I type that I don't really believe it, but I don't think I have another option. There's no way I can force it, and to manipulate it would be wrong. Although it wouldn't be manipulating as such, more illuminating, making things clearer for him.

All said, however, I am getting frustrated with my own indecision. Maybe to accept there may never be a resolution is the first step - why do we need to resolve things anyway? They will only change and will have to be gotten over (sorry poor grammar) all over again. Surely one can live in a state of ambiguity, because emotions are fluid anyway, and even if my dream came true and we both decided to pursue a relationship who's to say feelings wouldn't fluctuate within that relationship anyway?

Yelof maybe this is the insight in depression thing, but I do feel moderately better philosophically about it. [/coping mechanism]

It's just my heart that will have to find a way to cope. What doesn't kill me...

this would be a good time for you to write poetry

Thank god. That would be the compassionate thing to do. Who can take much more of this ridiculous torture? (I refer to readers and participants alike.)

Catwoman, I know this feels very REAL and IMPORTANT to you, but there is absolutely nothing new in your sad, sordid tale. This is some person (guy, girl, doesn't matter) who gets what he wants, on his terms, while the others in the drama spend their time and energy fantasizing about some unattainable future. Think of all the resources you have squandered on manipulating him, scheming against her, pining for some outcome, planning to sleep with total strangers just to see his response(!!??) and otherwise frittering away hours, days weeks, which you could have spent doing wonderful, positive things, and which you can never have back.

There are numerous recent revelations in neurobiology which illuminate the effects of emotional interactions on brain chemestry (and vice-versa), which point to the giddying, nearly addictive sensations caused by early romantic interactions. Obviously, we will all have different reactions, and will be affected by them to differing degrees, but stop and take a good look at yourself and your recent behavior. Are you really reacting to this guy objectively, or are you trying to prolong the rush of "good vibe" you've gotten from the thrill of furtive sex, the desire to 'conquer' this guy with your wiles, the possiblilty of proving your sexual superiority over your female roommate? You may even be getting some chemical benefit from the angst of it all.

What you attain with age and experience is the ability to discern this sort of bullshit and extract yourself from net-negative situations. My prediction is that you'll continue in this loser situation for as long as it continues to tickle your neural receptors, then the thrill will fade; you'll come to your senses and say "what was I thinking?" and get on with real life. (Which, by the way, is the one in which neither you nor your partner takes strangers home from a bar, just to see how the other one will react.)

When you grow up you'll also realize that, while it makes for fun banter on websites and in bars, and can be used to manipulate people (for now), your sexuality is not the be-all and end-all of your existence.

Best wishes to you.

I don't see the point in poetry.

I don't see the point in poetry
because
it won't change a thing.

Just a collection of words, thoughts
that I'd rather not be having
An autobiography you write for yourself.
Not everyone else.

It doesn't matter what I think.

I don't see the point in thinking.

I don't see the point in thinking
because
there's nothing left to think about.

People think too much
they don't
take
action.

Stand still. Think. Think.
Can't think of it?
Never will, maybe.

Just be.
because there's no point in being anything else.

I still don't see the point in poetry.

99 I read your post after the poem, and suddenly felt very embarrassed. I even thought about deleting it.

You make perfect sense. Your advice has cut through.

I'll stop with the hyperbole, melodrama and vague poetry.

Thank you everyone for putting up with me on this thread, and for your compassion. You don't know how much you've helped.

:)

Don't have a damn clue at all ;) Always willing to help though.
Women are alway attracted to assholes, it's virtually a law of physics.

That's some rock hard truth there 99.

Here is my personal experience on that one. I met a man who was newly divorced. There was this incredible chemistry between us right from the start. We became involved in a very passionate affair. I felt I had met THE one. He, on the other hand, was uncertain. Said he wanted to avoid the potential pain of another relationship going bad (sound familiar?). He said to give him time, so I did. One year later he called me up and told me that he had become exclusive with someone else, and that it had been swell knowing me.

Granted, this man is not the same one as yours, etc., etc., but if you feel a strong affinity for someone, you know it - you don't have to be coaxed into feeling love or stand around for months thinking about it. In my experience, a man who is truely interested will let you know this in no uncertain terms. They will call you first thing in the morning and the last thing at night. They leave sweet clumsy bouquets of wildflowers in a jar at your front door, they'll call you long distance from Mozambique and to hell with the long distance charges.

I can tell that you feel compelled to ride this one out to the end. I probably would have done the same myself once upon a time - in fact I did with Mr. "give me time." I hope for your sake that I am wrong, and it all turns out happy ever after for you, but I am not optimistic. I wish you well, and I know how painful this must be for you.

That is easily the stupidiest thing I have ever seen in print.

No, wait, that would be "Do not use hands to clear grass blockage from lawnmower blades while mower is running."

But that is still a stupid, lame-ass statement.

Hey, Wolf, I know you are one blunt lady, but have a bit of a heart here. Yeah, the rest of the world knows its lame, but then the rest of the world isn't in love with the guy either. Give her a break.

Maybe she doesn't need a break. Maybe she needs to wise up.

I love the "cut them some slack crowd", we cannot above all hurt anyone's feelings, geez we just need to comfort each other and we'll get through it.

Thank god WWII didn't happen 60 years later, even with the draft we're all such "victims" by now we'd find a way to dodge it.

I really want to grab some of you (some more than others) and just shake some damn sense into you if that was even possible.

Course there's a few of you here too I'd like to shake rattle and roll with (you know who you are).

I really don't like the word pussy, I think it's kind of crude & degrading. That said if those of you in the pussy crowd eventually get your way, and the pussification of men in general and America specifically succeeds, well be careful of what you wish for...you may just get it. But when things go bad (and they will) who's gonna save your sorry asses?

So what do you call the organ your wife owns that your kids came out of it after you came in it?