frightening flight experience
 

Not sure if this has been discussed yet, but a co-worker shared this link with me. Absolutely terrifying story, if it is true. It makes you wonder the state of the willingness of our country's citizens to go above and beyond in the event of scare like this.

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/...&articleid=711

And then her follow up:

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/...&articleid=716

Apologies if this has already gone around. I realize it's about a week old.

Fourth thread on the page man... but we did not have the followup. Reading now.

OK the followup confirms some details, but the more striking part of it is the quotes from people connected to the airlines, such as:

Oof.

Yeah, I notice that's what another pilot said - that these incidents (dry runs) were common and the topic of much industry gossip. Why are they not being reported? Public awareness is likely the best deterrent (though not always the most rational or logical - instead I imagine it would create quite a state of panic).

I still don't see the usefulness of the dry runs unless they're to create terror in and of themselves. The dry runs tip off the Feds to other kinds of attacks and "waste" personel. It really looks more like a test of the aircrews. Either way it is scarey stuff.

Seems Capt. Peck is more worried about noncitizens rights(feelings) than airline safety. Wrong priorities, methinks. :eyebrow:

Whatever happened to "presumed innocent till proven guilty"? Or does that only apply to Christians?
-Pie

"The incident you wrote about, and incidents like it, occur more than you like to think. It is a 'dirty little secret' that all of us, as crew members, have known about for quite some time."

I tend to think this quote is taken a bit out of context. In its current place, the editor makes it sound like the airlines are hiding some deep secret of ongoing terrorist plots that they can legally do nothing about. I'm sure a lot of incidents like this happen in which suspcisious activity causes flight delays,
like people shaving in the restroom or people getting sick who don't speak English, but I doubt any of them are real security risks. Do airlines get probed? I'm sure they did, but I noticed that we never learned much about the original 19 hijackers and their practice attempts, so as the public, we don't quite know how it works, anyways.

I would love to know what the actual events were on that flight and the findings of the authorities. This person's perception of it makes it sound absolutely horrific and, if that is the way it all went down, I would have been scared shitless and very concerned for my life. So how come no one else on the flight has mentioned anything? How come this hasn't hit the media? Why didn't this make the same news the way the previous incidents I linked did?

I keep thinking back to a photograph I saw in the Los Angeles Times called "Falling" by Pulitzer Prize winning AP photographer Richard Drew. It's a photograph of a man, his body is stretched out, one knee at a right angle, as if he's lying on a couch, watching television in the living room, relaxing and enjoying life. But he's not. It's a photograph of a man falling from one of the top floors of the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. This man jumped to his death, most likely because it seemed a less painful way to die than being engulfed in flames.

This picture is haunting. For a long time I kept it in my office. I still think about this picture and I wonder about this man -- his daily life, what he did for work, what he did for play, what his thoughts were about the world. I think about this person. I think about the meaning of "dry run." And then I think about what it means to be politically correct. And I keep coming up blank.

This is a really bizarre way to end this article and it really bugs me. I can't pinpoint why, but this woman sounds really paranoid to me, even if it is just because she kept this picture in her office, has never been able to get that man's life out of her mind, and blames his tragic death on rampant political correctness in our country. Something about the article, the way its stated, and the heavy political overtones make me question exactly what happened.

"So even if Northwest Airlines searched two of the men on board my Northwest flight, they couldn't search the other 12 because they would have already filled a government-imposed quota."

This is a serious problem, but not one that arises out of rules regarding profiling. A terrorist out of the Middle East can just as easily get a fake passport, shave clean, and walk onto an airline and not ever look as if he needs to be searched nor be flagged by the security system to be checked. The real problem is that there isn't enough money for the security needed to search every person. If each of these people were searched and they really did all have a single component to a weapon, how would searching all of them have helped? Each bag that goes on board an airplane is sniffed with an explosives detector and each carryon bag goes through a scanner that detects oganic material (explosives). What would have helped, here? Removing political correctness and searching each person with an Arab name?

So she asked me some of the questions that she had wanted to ask him: Where exactly did this band of 14 musicians play? What was the name of the band? Who booked the band and what kind of music did they play? Did anyone follow up and actually witness these 14 men performing at their desert casino gig?

I don't think this is any of her business and here is the reason why:

I asked a friend who is a local news correspondent if there were any arrests at LAX that day. There weren't.

Sounds like a lot of nothing to me.

But I wonder, if 19 terrorists can learn to fly airplanes into buildings, couldn't 14 terrorists learn to play instruments?

I love that line.

That pertains to punishment not prevention or investigations.
Considering the laundry list of bombings and hijackings committed by middle eastern men between ages 20 and 40, anyone trying to prevent more would be stupid not to notice, and yes investigate, anyone fitting that profile. It's just common sense to anyone charged with protecting us from these acts. :eyebrow:

Hmmmm. I thought racial profiling was not accepted practice. Well, let's just pack off all the Japanese back to their internment camps...

- Pie

You're right, it's not accepted practice and that's just plain stupid. Every law enforcement professional knows that. Being politically correct is not the best way to prevent the atrocities these people have in mind.
Your internment camp remark is a straw man I won't bother to address. :p

Considering the laundry list of bombings and hijackings committed by middle eastern men between ages 20 and 40

Say we were to concentrate our efforts on Middle Eastern men aged 20-40. How long do you think their efforts to sneak weapons in on themselves is going to last? Do you think they would just keep trying it over and over again, knowing that it is almost a garuntee they will get searched?

Granny and the kids aren't going to get searched, so how long do you think it will be before a Middle Eastern man, aged 20-40, figures out he can sneak the weapon in on his kid? Or how long do you think it will be before the terrorists start using people other than Middle Eastern men? Plenty of Islamic extremists in the Phillipenes and Africa that would love to walk into a plane knowing they aren't going to get searched because the TSA is too busy checking the eight Middle Eastern males who are also boarding.

Random searches = good.
Limiting the scope of your security based on an expected pattern = bad.

Ignoring the most likely perpetrator of a hijacking and/or terrorist act because it might be deemed politically incorrect = Really Fucking Stupid and We Deserve to Die

Ignoring the most likely perpetrator of a hijacking and/or terrorist act because it might be deemed politically incorrect = Really Fucking Stupid and We Deserve to Die

And how do you identify that likely perpetrator? The guy from Saudi Arabia here in the US on a visitor's passport? What about the guy from the Phillipenes here on a work visa? How about the man from Syria with a fake driver's license that has been marked as a US citizen in the flight ticketing system? Remember the British citizen that placed a bomb in his shoe and intended to blow up the plane? He wasn't checked, nor would he have been had we been checking all men from the Middle East aged 20-40.

We have limited TSA security resources. I understand the problem of ignoring the obvious, but concentrating on one group of people simply opens holes everywhere else. How about we make it difficult for anyone to bring a weapon on board?

Kitsune, you make a lot of sense.

Remember the British citizen that placed a bomb in his shoe and intended to blow up the plane? He wasn't checked, nor would he have been had we been checking all men from the Middle East aged 20-40.

If I recall, he definitely LOOKED Middle-Eastern. That's all that counts, he would have been searched if a widespread "search all men of Middle-Eastern descent" order were in place.

The problem is the answer is better communication between baggage screeners and law enforcement combined with some cluey guys on screening so they know what to look for today and whether someone looks suspicious or not. It is no stretch to envisage Middle Eastern, Asian African or on the odd occasion, caucasian Islamic terrorists (let's face it, noone is going to be doing a good old hostage these days, that game is over), good intel and passing it around is paramount. That said, the most likely bombers today are 20-40 men of middle eastern decent, not skewing the random searches in their direction is paramount to dereliction of duty, I said it in the other thread.

That said, I fly all the time and I know full well that airport and plane security are a goddamn joke. It is so damn easy to carry on or manufacture weaponry it's not funny, I could list 20 ways off the top of my head.

And I can give you 400,000 other instances of a location and method that somebody of any ethnicity could kill you if they were so inclined.

How many drinking reservoirs do we have open to the air? How many stadiums feature 60,000 people packed into a tight area?

I find it laughable that people think once they figure out the whole airport safety thing, they're safe from terrorism.

It's like adaptability goes right out the window. We get a plane-based terror attack and BAM, all future ones must have something to do with planes. How blind is that?

Spend a day with a notebook downtown just walking around, and note potential dangers on-par with a plane hijacking. You'll find dozens. Every day.

The world is a scary place....if you want it to be.

I choose not to live in fear. I don't hate arabs or islam, because I know that the troublemakers are an EXCEPTION to the rule. I know that the probability of being involved in a plane hijacking is about the same as me being in an Oklahoma government building when that WHITE guy blew it up.

Maybe you blokes should investigate why extremists want to kill us in the first place. Because trust me, it isn't because "they hate our freedom."

I've not flown in a long time, but I'm certainly in agreement with you there. I have a couple doodads that would likely get confiscated off my keychain, but have fun collecting things that will make it through my metal detector at work and are still signficantly dangerous.

Like this.

And this.

CF blades are one thing but when you get creative the opportunites are endless. Matches are easy enough to conceal, buy two large bottles of wiskey, pour both over a row of seats during a long haul flight at night and before anyone's noticed you've got a major fire on your hands.

carbonated_brains, I agree entirely

Oh man I hate that arroganct line. The idea that a whole bunch of people would hate America for it's freedom. Why would they hate freedom? What the fuck is there to hate about freedom? All the reasons that do exist and are relevant stack up to a bloody great mountain of grievances .....but no, the reason Bush and his cadre choose is that they hate freedom. Pathetic. It's like reading a superhero comic book. I am surprised the villains arent bright green and armed with killer frogs.

If I recall, he definitely LOOKED Middle-Eastern. That's all that counts, he would have been searched if a widespread "search all men of Middle-Eastern descent" order were in place.

This is silly. "Pardon me sir, you have dark skin and that means you have been flagged for security purposes. All the people with pale skin may go ahead and board."

I'm not pulling the "politically correct card" here, because about everytime I go into an airport, I'm the one that gets pulled aside and I don't consider it an inconvience. Its either because I have an overstuffed, suspicious bookbag as a carryon or, I dunno, maybe I just look like a terrorist. (I think the military hat and scruffy face might have something to do with it. Hmm.) Regardless, it doesn't bother me that I'm selected nearly every time and they decide to pick through my bags or sweep over me with a metal detector. If I am being selected at the X-ray line based on my looks, I don't care.

What I am saying here is that I'd like for you to go to any major airport and count how many people "look Middle Eastern" to you and tally the number that you think should be checked and I'm sure you will find that it is no small number. I admit that the most recent time I flew I glanced around at all the people who "fit the profile". The number was huge, mostly because its almost impossible to tell the difference between an Arab, an Indian, and someone from a lot of the Eastern countries. The simple matter is that there is not enough security to screen them all and, by concentrating our efforts on people "who look the part", we open the doors through security for hundreds of other methods to sneak something on board by simply changing that single aspect.

If you fly a lot, you know they already profile people, but more on suspicious patterns rather than skin color. Visiting with a passport? You're going to get checked. Switch carriers midway through your trip? You're probably going to get checked. One-way ticket? Expect to get lots of little 'X's on your boarding pass. Person under 18 who doesn't have to show proof of ID? They almost always get checked if they're over the age of 12. Even the technical field workers at my office that make regular trips to and from DC on a schedule get checked everytime they fly. Frustrated, they asked why and the response they got was that because they fly as a group on a regular basis, they're acting in a suspicious way and the system flags them for security reasons.

Is this perfect? Hell no. But I think its better than what we had before, which was essentially nothing, and I think its better than keeping the security screeners busy with the huge group of people that happen to have darker skin than an albino Finn in the wintertime. The random selection is there to both break the expected pattern and prevent human error -- there is a reason the computer makes half of the decisions.

Want all Arab-looking people checked? There is a really easy way to solve this, I suppose, but no one is willing to do it: pay more for your airline ticket and wait in longer lines. Just the same way with the bomb-proof luggage containers for checked-in bags -- they've had them for years, but insurance companies did the math and figured that losing one or two planes every so many years to an onboard bomb outweighs the cost of installing the reinforced bins. Higher cost for safer flight makes customers, and the airlines, unhappy and drives down business. Its the same reason you haven't seen any of the Boeings get their wires re-done or routed outside of the center gas tanks post flight 800 -- the risk outweighs the cost. No one is willing to pay for extra security or longer lines, but anyone will dish out some extra cash to sit in a seat with a little LCD TV installed in the back of the seat in front of them. Checking everyone is impossible. Checking all people who "look Arab" is impossible and creates a very easily broken security pattern. Random, for now, is as good as it gets.

I'm not sure I get the whole "political correctness is the problem" thing, anyways. Any captain of any commercial airline has the ability to remove any passenger for any reason, stated or not. In the days after September 11th, a number of pilots requested people who "appeared suspicious" to remove themselves from the flight prior to departure. I don't remember anyone screaming back then. In the X-Ray lines, people that are checked are selected on their appearance and/or their baggage. The only random part is the check prior to boarding based on your seating pass.

but have fun collecting things that will make it through my metal detector at work and are still signficantly dangerous.

Whoa, those are freaky. I thought they passed some kind of law that required some bits of metal be included in the blades in order to set off metal detectors?

Nope.

I've been profiled. I have long hair, and I don't shave when on vacation.

First I was profiled by every weed provider in Jamaica, offering.
Then I was profiled by every security person in the US, assuming I'd accepted.

It was sort of weirdly amusing.

Nice.

Of course, someone noted before -- all you have to do is take a knife from one of the restuarants in the airside that exists beyond the metal detectors. Ugh.

In the days after September 11th, a number of pilots requested people who "appeared suspicious" to remove themselves from the flight prior to departure.

As a side note, comedian Dave Attell (host of Comedy Central's "Insomniac") was one of those people.

As a side note, comedian Dave Attell (host of Comedy Central's "Insomniac") was one of those people.

:eek: What? But Dave would never hurt anyone! That man is my all-time hero! Poor, poor Dave.

Ah, he probably drank his way back across the country and had a good time at it.

"Ahhhhhh... drunks and losers, dwarves with limps..."

"_____s and ho's and one-eyed pimps!"

Anyone who can fill in that word for me will be my hero, I can never understand it clearly.

Freaks?

I'm not suggesting we ignore everyone else, I'm suggesting we don't *intentionally* exclude the most likely type of potential perp because we're afraid we'll hurt someone's feelings. Big difference.

Don't get me started on fucking profiling, might be the fact I carry lots of computer gear, I'm sure the passports thing plays a role (mismatching departures/arivals) but I get dragged aside and questions every second flight, had my luggege pulled apart countless times, had to prove every fucking device I carry isn't a goddamn bomb, be put in rooms and asked to list names dates and times of where I've been and who I've been with, demanding to know where I went on previous trips and drug sniffing dogs going over my clothes. Then they wonder why I get pissed off. The best one was the guy that asked me what the suspicious white pills were, the ones with panadol clearly imprinted on the side.

George Carlin cited exactly that as the reason he carries only Flintstones vitamins on planes now.

I'm tempted to start packing wierd random item in my luggage just to fuck with them a bit, maybe a single tomato wrapped in gaffa tape or a photo of a picasso.

Freaks?

I don't think so... it sounds kind of like "Flo's"--it definitely rhymes with "ho's."

Well, this guy says it is indeed "flos". Alas, I was not able to discover what a "flo" is. I doubt he meant "arrows", and "floor" doesn't seem to fit.

I'm tempted to start packing wierd random item in my luggage just to fuck with them a bit, maybe a single tomato wrapped in gaffa tape or a photo of a picasso.

Peanut butter. No kidding. If you fly through an airport with the upgraded x-ray systems that flag organic material in red, packing a single jar of peanut butter (dense, organic, in a jar) will do it.

I'm not saying you should do this, by the way. ;)

Indubitably. :thumpsup:

She survived a flight with 14 harmless Syrian musicians -- then spread 3,000 bigoted and paranoid words across the Internet. As a pilot and an American, I'm appalled

Sorry Salon link you may have to go via their add to get to see it, click enter Salon premium

The follow up link that Breakingnews posted says nobody checked to see if they really were musicians.......that we know of. ;)

And if they were, the bass player is suspect. :lol:

I'm not suggesting we ignore everyone else, I'm suggesting we don't *intentionally* exclude the most likely type of potential perp because we're afraid we'll hurt someone's feelings. Big difference.

Fair enough -- I think, also, that it would be a bad thing to not do a security check on someone because it might hurt their feelings. You can't be concerned with that when people's safety is at stake. Maybe we should be basing security checks on skin color/appearance. Should this also apply elsewhere? If so, in what situations?

You know what really annoys me? When I get picked out of line for "special treatment" - which seems to happen a lot recently - and there's no good reason I can think of.

It's always when I'm flying to the US. I'm always flying from the UK. I always have a return ticket. I always depart on a direct flight from London. I pack no suspicious items, and have one carry on & if I have to, one checked item. I have a visa in my passport from when I worked for a US company, and always ensure I fill in an I-94 rather than an I-94W waiver form and enter on my visa. This I do voluntarily (I'm still entitled to enter on a waiver), because I'm all for biometric screening at the point of entry and exit from a country and waiver bearers don't have to do it. So I'm voluntarily getting fingerprinted and photographed by the nice immigration guy when I don't have to. I have a full UK passport, which has 3 years left to run on it and contains a variety of stamps from various points of entry into the US and Canada over the last 7 years. I dress casual-smart, and do not wear a hat for check-in or screening. For what it's worth, I'm a white caucasian male.

At no point have I blown up or crashed any planes.

So why, oh why, do I get searched, swabbed for explosives and made to take off my shoes when there's no goddamn seats available, every time I fly to or from the US for the last few trips?

What bothers me is not so much that they keep searching me; I wouldn't mind if they searched everyone. What bothers me is that every time they're spending their time searching me (and about 50% of the time, my girlfriend who's travelling with me - otherwise, she strolls through and waits for me) they're not searching someone who might be a terrorist. I mean.. am I really such a high match on their profiling that it's worth searching me to the exclusion of other people, over and over and over?

If so, I humbly submit that their profiling algorithm is crap.

Post a picture, maybe that could clear things up a bit. We could vote on how terrorist-y you look. :)

Maybe you have beady eyes?

I'm a brit, so obviously I have beady little eyes that are too close together, and bad teeth. :)

Somewhat astonishingly (to me, at least) I have no pictures of me online which I've published. All I can find is this:

http://www.freedomdivers.co.uk/image...yAug2003/6.jpg

...but it should be noted that I don't attempt to board aircraft dressed this way.

...but it should be noted that I don't attempt to board aircraft dressed this way.

I, for one, would pay to see someone try it. "Seat cushion used as a floatation device? Screw that."

A bunch of dive buddies and I took a ferry to Ireland and suited & kitted up before walking aft and suggesting to fascinated passengers that they not worry, because it's probably nothing, and we'd be sure to inform them over the tannoy if the little problem turned out to be anything serious.

The staff thought it was quite funny, in the end, and they didn't have us sodomised by the police - much to my (retrospective) surprise.

Ah, it was a more innocent age back then.

To roughly paraphrase Doug Stanhope, buy the largest sex toy you can find. Cover it with a mixture of melted chocolate and ketchup, and let it dry. Find some flesh-colored foam and rubber-cement a few tiny bits onto the side of it. Wrap it in aluminum foil, stick it in your suitcase, and enjoy the spectacle when it goes through X-Ray.

I want to knit iron filings into my entire suit.

"You need not scan me, I am magnet-man!"

I won't get deeply into the politics of it all, but would like to add, in case anyone missed it, that this woman used Anne Coulter as a cite in this article. The whole thing smells like a UL (and yeah, I'm aware it actually took place). I'm just sayin'. If there were air marshalls all over the plane, why did they need another passenger to write descriptions? If the airline or anyone else thought they were so F-ing dangerous, why weren't they questioned BEFORE they flight took off? The guy wouldn't return her friendly smile? Wahhh. Muslim men would consider smiling at a woman outside their own family way too intimate. Interesting to note that eating at McDonald's and needing orthopedic shoes should send up a red flag.

And if congregating around the bathroom was a crime, women all over the world would be in lockup for good. This whole thing rang of self-important, whiny, smarmy white-chick prejudice to me. NOTHING happened to the Precious Princess, and she still has to yodel about it.

...marshalls all over the plane...

I don't believe this for a second. They usually put, what, one air marshall on a plane? Maybe two at the most? Do the flight attendants really know who is and who isn't an AM? Is a flight attendant really stupid enough to tell a passenger if they did know?

Interesting to note that eating at McDonald's and needing orthopedic shoes should send up a red flag.

The multiple visits to the bathroom were flagged. To me, if you have a bag of McDonald's food and you aren't visiting the bathroom repeatedly, you're suspect.

You dive in english weather? Ye gods that brings new meaning to blue balls, and here's me thinking Melbourne in the summer was bad.

"what's this for?"
"I use it to violently sodomise off-duty baggage inspectors"

It's almost be worth the ensuing imprisonment and cavity search.

There were 14 Syrians, IIRC. And I agree, it should be a wake up call. We should be awakened to the fact that our prejudices don't always hold water. Their baggage was checked, just like everyone else's. Add that to not doing a fucking thing except making some white people uncomfortable. The widdle weporter was uncomfy on a fwight? Cry me a freaking river. Nobody proved they did ANYTHING wrong. WTF should they have to sit together? Maybe they booked their tickets on PriceLine and that's the only way they could get them. IT'S NOT OUR BUSINESS. THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG. I know! It must have been that weird, non-English language they were speaking. Ethnocentricity in action.

Who are the "terrorists" you're referring to here? Surely not these guys, as the only terror they caused was what Little Miss brewed up in her own mind. Again, they did NOTHING WRONG. But it's okay to discriminate against them, because they have dark skin... Go ahead and "scream discrimination" if that's what puts the starch in your socks. No skin off my teeth. Probably won't get you very far, unless you can back it up.

BTW, who was who said that people who would give up freedoms for a little temporary security deserving neither? Not being snarky, I really can't remember. I agree though.

Yeah.....what Jane Says :)

Ben Franklin said it.

And while under the rules at the time they didn't do anything wrong, the FAA changed the rules because of them and other situations like theirs, such that you can no longer congregate in the aisles or at the bathroom, and a flight attendant will rigorously check the bathroom every two hours. So next time, they WILL be doing something wrong, and it WILL be our business.

Franklin said it, but I seem to remember that someone else (Jefferson?) had a very similar quote, so one may have borrowed it from the other.

Yeah, next time, it will be. However, it wasn't "wrong" at the time, and had anyone else been doing it, they rules likely would not have changed at all.

Thanky for the amen, DanaC.

This is not the only instance.

Instance of what? Where did you read that one of these fourteen guys tried to break through a wall? Again, they were INNOCENT. Did NOTHING. They did nothing but offend the bigoted sensibilities of some white chick on a plane. That is all.