50 vs. 3
 

this seems pretty ridiculous. why didn't the group of 50 just pummel the crap out of the 3? the 3 were french so it isn't like they would have put up much of a fight...

50 vs. 3

I think those 50 showed they were better people by not descending on those three.

They coulda spewed vitriol at 'em. No, seriously, Jews usually don't fight back--unless they are the Israeli Army, then duck.

i understand that they did the proper thing by not resorting to violence. i just would have rather seen the headline look something like this: Jews kick Frog Butt. film at 11.

I think the JDL would differ with you. ;)

Did I defame anyone? I am just going on what my Jewish friends tell me. And observation. My boyfriend is Jewish! He says Jews typically don't like confrontation.

Where in hell did that come from??? All I said was the JDL would differ with you on Jews not fighting back. :confused:

xoxoxoBruce--I think we both know that I am overly sensitive. Where are all the Palestinian supporters? I expected to see quite a backlash...maybe later?

I was friends with Irv Ruben (Leader of the JDL) before he was murdered by the FBI when their case was falling apart and it was coming out that they falsely accused him of trying to blow up a Muslim mosque to try to get people to stop being so angry at Arabs in America.

I read Jews and French, where do Pals come into this? :confused:

Right you are. It's just that if you talk about one...you usually end up talking about the other. Cyclical.

*Considers jumping in with a comment on the Palestinians' suffering at the hands of violent Israelis but then decides theres no real point and goes off somewhere quiet for a joint instead*

Atually , just as an amusing aside, my ex and I both had to leave an English class at college and take the course on home study because my ex got into a fist fight in the middle of a class debate with someone who made a rather unfortunate remark about the "jews meekly walking into the gas chambers" Needless to say since he'd launched an atack on the little shit I was voicing my suport from the sidelines. *smiles* in our defense regarding the inappropriate response we were only 20 at the time....The correct response might have been to wait til he got out of the college buildings and trash him on the way homer....only kidding of course

I visited Auschwitz this last June when I went to Eastern Europe. I'm not Jewish, but it was still one of the most depressing places I've ever been to--really awful. Why would anyone who is anti-semitic go there in the first place? Pretty sick.

Sometimes I think people have difficulty differentiating between their feelings towards the Israeli state or political zionism in individuals and their attitude to the Jewish diaspora as a whole. The comments the three made sounded to me more like they were angry with Israel than with the people themselves as Jews. Unfortunately they chose to express their anger towards people who were paying their respects to the long dead victims of genocide and as such their vitriol was at best misplaced and at worst revoltingly insensitive. The fact that they were at Aushwitz at all makes me wonder if they are less anti semitic and more anti Israel...Their anger at the wearing of the Israeli flag may have been someone feling offended at the political entity of Israel laying claim to all grief for the holocaust. We do not even know the ethnic or religious identity of the three Frenchmen. For all we know they could be politically left wing anti right -wing -zionist french Jews.

They probably went there with the intent of causing trouble. I just can't even picture the scene--when I was there we walking around like zombies, just staring. It was almost too much to take in. It doesn't get much more insensitive than what these guys did.

Possible. Equally possible is that this is a little bit of noise created to back up Sharon's statements about French anti semitism recently. Or the incident happened.....doesnt mean it happened as that report stated. It is interesting to me that this was from the Jerusalem post. I have no real knowledge of the publication but my guess is it is pro zionist in nature. I also notice that whilst the people interviewd claimed the remarks were anti semitic in nature the only ones they published in detail were anti Israeli not anti semitic. I very much doubt these three people ( how three people can be described as a "gang" when facing a crowd of 50 I dont know) went to Auschwitz puely to cause trouble and upset Jewishfolk. More likely is that they were there to pay there respects or pay a visit to a place of historical interest and were offended by the draped Israeli flag which they percieved as a) rampant nationalism in a place which should not be tainted further with Nationalism of the present day or b) they saw the flag as indicative of political zionism which offended them because they see that as laying claim to the grief of Aushwitz, something they themselves may feel connected to. Many people in Europe are very angry with the Israeli state machine and the way political zionism is being painted as the only way to be truly Jewish. Many people are also angry at the actions of the Israeli army in Gaza and percieve those actions to be tantamount to a new form of fascism in which case the overt presence of the Israeli flag which exists currently as a symbol of that abuse, may have seemed highly offensive.

Having said that it was clearly an innappropriate response and led those people to do a fair impression of the kind of ugliness seen in racists and anti semites

Sorry Dana but 99.999% of Jews are Zionists which means if you say you hate Zionists, you're just trying to mask the fact that you hate Jews; even if you are one.. I'm not Jewish. I'm an atheist and a proud Zionist. I support the right of Israel to exist. To claim they don't have such a right is to claim that nobody has a right to exist.

I imagine that if the 50 did fight back, it would have been picked up immediately by the European press and the message flashed worldwide "CRAZED JEWS RIOT AT CONCENTRATION CAMP TOUR, INJURING THREE FRENCH TOURISTS STANDING NEARBY."

This story is carried by the Jerusalem Post .. any other news services pick it up? It's not exactly hot news in the rest of the world, most likely.

Oh, and antisemites go to Auschwitz to mourn too ... they mourn not having quite finished.

They don't need to find an attack to back up Sharon's statements. The attacks in France are double what they were last year.

http://cellar.org/2004/cemetaryattack.jpg

Do you have data on that? Do you mean worldwide? In Israel? In the US? By 'zionist' do you mean the existence of Isreal as a 'place of return' for Jewish people, or are you defending the existence of Isreal as a post WWII geopolitical entity?

UT-that picture makes me sick. I don't even know how to respond to that much hatred...

Not all and certainly not 99.9% of all jews worldwide support political zionism as exhibited by the State of Israel in it's actions to date. That would be like saying all Americans are fundamentalist christians or neo conservatives. Note by the way I use the term political zionism. What Israel engages in is more than merely the propogation and maintenance of a zionist state, it engages in political activity as any state must and the character of that poltical face has been termed zionist. Perhaps another term which could be employed would be Zionist Imperialism. The key there is Imperialism. Maybe the word Zionist should not carry such negative connotations .....but attached to the political philosophy it currently is attached to the word cannot help but carry some of that poltical baggage now. Many Jews do not support that particular poltical creed. Perhaps they even resent the way the word Zion and zionist have been hijacked by the political right and now refer less to Jewishness than to a political identity.

UT, good point, you are right attacks are up greatly. It just struck me as odd timing given the recent furore over Sharon and his invitation to French Jews. But again I reiterate there is a differece between anti Semitic and anti Israeli activity. That picture is clearly portraying the results of anti semitism atit's rawest and most revoltingly clear. That sort of thing is exactly why I get so annoyed when I hear any mainstream politician who criticises Israel being labelled as anti semitic. Critiism of Israel or sympathy for Palestine do not equate to anti semitism. When we take our eye off the ball and allow such things to be played with in the political games of statesmanship it becomes harder to police the actual hatemongers. We need to be clear who the real anti semites are because they all the more dangerous to us if we dont.

Okay. But if you reject the activities of the Zionist state for no obvious reason other than that it's mostly Jews, what then? Because when you complain about a defensive wall, which has worked to prevent hundreds of deaths on both sides and may possibly end the intifada, isn't that being a little too obvious about it? Are there any other countries that wouldn't be allowed to do such a thing?

There arent many countries where someone is allowed to builfd a ruddy great wall through other people's land no. The idea that that wall is somehow saving lives on either side is frankly laughable. Not just laughable, its illegal in international law and is deemed beyond the pale by everyone except America and main body of the Jewish diaspora. Israel is a powerful nationstate who is imposing their will over a defeated and humiliated people. They have driven palestinians away from their homes into permanent refugee camps and then settled their own people onto the land the palestinians have vacated. When that happens elsewhere in the world ,the rest of the international community including America cry "ethnic cleansing". Only when Israel engages in these activities does America hold up it's hands and say "well how else can they protect themselves?"

And people arent necessarily rejecting Zionism or Israel because it's made up of Jews but because they object to the zionist poltical goals and the manner in which these poltical goals are being achieved.

East and West Germany took down their wall when the didn't need it any more. I expect this one will come down eventually too.

You mean the "other people's land" across which they were invaded multiple times over several decades until they just simply captured it, after warnings that they would, in a defensive war in which they were invaded again?

It makes the Faulklands look like invading Poland.

"You mean the land across which they were invaded multiple times until they just simply captured it in a defensive war in which they were invaded again?"

Like most wars there are several ways to define it and many ways to tell the story. That is just one of them.

"It makes the Faulklands look like invading Poland."

The British were involved in the Faulklands at the request of the falklanders. That was a war for self determnination. Hitler was not in poland at the request of the Polish. The Israeli state has no business being in Palestine.

The wall is not being built on someone else's land. It's being built on the legitimate borders of the land that Israel legitimately owns and obtained honestly. And 99.999% of the Jews in the entire world are Zionists meaning they support the right of Israel to exist, and the fact that Israel honestly owns all of the land they currently occupy. This includes the land they were given by it's previous owners (the UK), and the land they won when they were attacked without cause in 1967.

I love how these anti-Jewish people claim to love Jews but hate Zionism. It's like saying, I love Mexicans, I just hate Mexico and want all the Mexicans to leave. These people cry about some people who were displaced nearly 60 years ago, but neglect to mention the 2 or 3 million Jews who were displaced in Arab nations at this time and who also lost thier homes, businesses, etc. They neglect to mention the fact that in 1948 five arab nations told Arab people to evacuate the Israel so they could kill each and every last Jew.

Not only is all of the land Israel currently occupies legitimately owned by Israel, All of Jordan was once part of Israel.

So I guess this means you haven't met his mother yet. :stickpoke

:eek:--not yet!
I wonder if she will approve..? Oh, well...he's a grown man. Besides, I can always convert...:angel:

I wonder if she will approve..?

No. No she will not. But she might be able to hide that fact. :)

Oh, well...he's a grown man. Besides, I can always convert...

Converting is actually a bitch of a process. Be glad you're not male. A neighbor of mine was converting for his wife, and found out that since he didn't have the bris (circumcision) ceremony as a baby, he had to have it now--despite being already circumcised. The rabbi just nicked him with the razor instead.

OHMIGOD! I am thanking the Almighty right this second that I do NOT have to do the bris...I just have to learn to do a Passover meal. Whew.

You don't think she will like me even if I DO convert?

Who knows, maybe she's a modern Jewish mother. But in all my experiences, even conversion can't compare to a genuinely Jewish wife. There's a saying... "Shiksas [gentile girls] are for practice."

When a friend of mine came out of the closet to his Jewish mother, the very first thing she said was, "Well, if it's going to be a boy, at least let it be a nice Jewish boy."

:bawling:

I'm...I'm...a-
practice Shiksa?

:blush: Oh, now now, don't forget I've never met you or your boyfriend. Don't let my experiences make you go have a fight with him tonight about how he's not really devoted to you. I'm sure he's very wonderful and loving, and his mother will love you for who you are.:joylove:

Was kidding, Clodfobble. No worries!

Besides, he's 61. He hardly needs the practice!

*cough anna nicole cough cough* :D

OH. shut UP, will you?

:angel:----he's really GOOD!

my guess, brianna, is that you are not a part of his generation?

No, I'm not a part of his generation--I'm a 21 years younger. But it's FUN!

Don't knock what you haven't tried! He's a very, very nice man. Intelligent, witty, plays well with others-all that. Just because you are 61 doesn't mean you can't be...(ahem) freaky.

I realize by saying that I am putting myself in grave danger... ;) but, what the hell

Well, the truth of the matter is that NO woman, Jewish or otherwise, will ever be good enough for a real Jewish mother-in-law. However, I've seen several examples where the converted daughter-in-law was more welcomed than the born-Jewish, because of the sacrifice she was willing to make for the <strike>Prince</strike> cherished son.

And he will say his prayer every morning, thanking god he's not a woman. ;)

Yeah, wow. I thought that was just Orthodox practice. :eyebrow:
It's pretty offensive.

The worst part of doing the passover meal is eating the Gefilte Fish.

It's a longstanding joke at a friend's family's seder that "Wolf will have the Goyische portion" (i.e., none). For years I was a good sport and would manage to choke down a morsel of this horrible stuff, until I found out that his new wife (and convert to Judaism) was refusing to even try it.

And no, she won't like you, even if you DO convert. It's a rule. There's always someone who would have been better. Usually one or two girlfriends prior to you.

Ok--so far I am NOT doing the "thank God I am not a woman" thing or the Gefilte Fish thing. Anything else this Shiksa should know???

He's not been exactly forthcoming with all this shit... :mad:

Latkes are really, really yummy. :) ESPECIALLY with the sour cream and applesauce, though it may sound counterintuitive.

At the risk of sounding like I am a fat-ass (see "how much do you weigh?" thread)
Potato Pancakes are totally do-able. :yum:

And blintzes. Especially the blintzes. And Kugle (casserole). Yummy!

I guess it all depends upon how observant your sweetie is -- he might not be telling you about all this other stuff because he isn't aware of it himself, or it isn't important to him. The biggie to look out for, though, is, will he want/need to raise the kids as Jews? If you agreed, this wouldn't necessarily require your conversion, but some branches would then require the children to convert (orthodox and some conservative congregations).

If you don't convert, but you raise the kids Jewish, the hardest part will be if they have a Bar/Bat Mitzvah ceremony (not required, but customary, at least in the US) -- and you are not allowed to be up there with them at the Torah because you are not Jewish. (Many congregations in the US allow this, but in some modified way.)

I belong to a congregation with a high percentage of mixed marriages, not to mention a fair sampling of non-traditional households. In most of the US, you can find a congregation that is willing to meet your family as it comes. Good luck!

I am not wanting children and neither is he ( he is 61 and has 2 daughters) and he does not belong to an Orthodox congregation. I have no problem with conversion, though. He has never asked me and I don't think he cares. He's a little more "Kurt Vonnegut" than anything else!

Ah, the Jewish intellectual. Actually, I know a few people who fit the 'Jewish agnostic intellectual' label. Everyone has their own beliefs. Judaism has many large labels like Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, ultra-Orthodox, etc. The reality is that since destruction of the second temple (Aug 10, 0070), Judaism has been much more decentralized. Individual Rabbis and their congregations are financially autonomous, and outside of Israel it is difficult to enforce any religious rulings.

As a result, it is possible to find a synagogue that more closely matches ones personal beliefs. I remember the Rabbi at the Reform congregation we went to talking about why she ate chicken cheesesteaks, a position I had no problem with. You might have to Jewish to appreciate the shocking nature of this.

Anyway, a good site to check out, and one I use to cross check information I am 'almost positive' is correct, is Judaism 101 . You might want to check out the chapter on sex. Since your boyfriend is not Orthodox, you won't be obligated to know or follow the 613! commandments, some of which have been made obsolete by the fact that the US and Israel are democracies (or republics) and that the Temple has been destroyed.

BTW, my sister is getting remarried to a Jewish accountant who is very nice to his mother, polite and respectful to my parents, and good with her children. In other words, a mensch.

I hope your boyfriend is a mensch. May you find great happiness together. Mazel Tov.

Thanks, Richlevy! Yes, he is, above all else, a mensch. :biggrin:

You don't, he may. :)

I don't want to open up a hornet's nest here...BUT which prophet said that, "thank God I'm not a woman" crap? I wanna know where Yahweh said that. Jesus certainly never said it. He liked women. I think God likes women, too. I think a lot of MEN don't like women. :ivy:

*pssstt* the jews don't put a lot of creedance in what Jesus likes or dislikes.

TOTALLY. That's why I might stay with him (Jesus)--he was sooooo cool. Plus, he was Jewish. :)

i have no desire to start a cellar religion argument, but i think sticking with Jesus is always a good plan.

If more people stuck with Jesus there'd be more room for the rest of us.